Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) For some reason, my defense to an anti-religious comment on Kotaku won't fucking post there, so I'll post it here, instead. It took me quite some time to write it down, so I might as well post it somewhere. While that kind of rational thinking applies to the human psyche, it doesn't apply to God. God is more than aware of your suffering, and it is in his power to end it. But he chooses not to, not because he is spiteful, but because he is wise. If he gave everything to you, there would be no faith. He gives man the power to decide for him/herself, and the result is a relationship between Him and His people so vast, so powerful that human words can't begin to describe it.Let me put it in gaming terms. One man creates a game that requires you to navigate a treacherous path filled with challenge and mystery. The other man creates a game where you simply have to turn it on, and you are suddenly the winner without any actions required. What would you care about more?Yes, life is far from fair. But when you struggle through it and come out on the other side, your reward is the greatest of all. It's tough love, yet it's the greatest love of all time. We have unanswerable paradoxes because our minds can't even attempt to understand the universe the way He does.I am sorry if this little religious rant turned any of you off. I had to defend my position. I don't think any less of those who don't believe, either. I've gone through many hardships, and many tests of faith, and I can understand why many would buckle under that kind of torment.Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just wanted to let off some steam and defend my point of view in a rational manner. Edited June 29, 2012 by Deanb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 When people tell me life isn't fair, I tell them otherwise. It's not life/God/the universe that is unfair to you, but your fellow man. Both intentionally and unintentionally, it's because someone acted upon your life. We're faced with many trials, and if you're religious, tests of faith. For a long period of time I thought I was going to have the worst years of my life ahead of me. I was getting really depressed, and it started to show. Yet I never fully gave in. No one is destined to be miserable and you have the (God given) ability to seek happiness and find it in the smallest of cracks along the road of life. TL;DR Opposition in all things, bro. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr W Phallus Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Whilst I have no problem whatsoever with belief or faith (in a deity), I am very much against organised religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 When people tell me life isn't fair, I tell them otherwise. It's not life/God/the universe that is unfair to you, but your fellow man. Both intentionally and unintentionally, it's because someone acted upon your life. We're faced with many trials, and if you're religious, tests of faith. For a long period of time I thought I was going to have the worst years of my life ahead of me. I was getting really depressed, and it started to show. Yet I never fully gave in. No one is destined to be miserable and you have the (God given) ability to seek happiness and find it in the smallest of cracks along the road of life. TL;DR Opposition in all things, bro. Well said, sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Very good point. I never understood the proverbial stick up the butts of many Atheists on the internet. Yes I understand that your father doesn't love you. I know that your mom used to take you to church when you'd rather be watching Muppet Babies. That's no reason to get all pissed at someone for saying "God Bless You" when you do something nice or when a movie/song/game/book has a Christian influence to it. Seriously, you have no right to insult the religious beliefs of others (except Mormons and Scientologists ) Get over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 We're not friends Battra? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Very good point. I never understood the proverbial stick up the butts of many Atheists on the internet. Yes I understand that your father doesn't love you. I know that your mom used to take you to church when you'd rather be watching Muppet Babies. That's no reason to get all pissed at someone for saying "God Bless You" when you do something nice or when a movie/song/game/book has a Christian influence to it. Seriously, you have no right to insult the religious beliefs of others (except Mormons and Scientologists ) Get over it! I guess that before you even open your mouth it's assumed that you have a stick up your butt and your father didn't love you doesn't really help smooth things along. Anywho I'm at the moment about to head out for a bit so I'll just leave with this since it's pretty close to how I feel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0123R6vjIoE edit: Also people who've been with TAY for a while will also know that me heading out isn't entirely coincidental.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slithy toves Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 so... wait, i mean, i get the defense of yr beliefs and all but this seems to only be defending against ppl who are saying religion isn't valid cos their lives suck? no? because i'm not really a fan of organized religion and it has absolutely nothing to do with the way my life has or has not gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 so... wait, i mean, i get the defense of yr beliefs and all but this seems to only be defending against ppl who are saying religion isn't valid cos their lives suck? no? because i'm not really a fan of organized religion and it has absolutely nothing to do with the way my life has or has not gone. Whatevs. We all know your father doesn't love you and you never got to see Muppet Babies. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I am sorry if this little religious rant turned any of you off. I had to defend my position. I don't think any less of those who don't believe, either. I've gone through many hardships, and many tests of faith, and I can understand why many would buckle under that kind of torment. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just wanted to let off some steam and defend my point of view in a rational manner. While I haven't taken offence, the bit I've highlighted appears really condescending - I'm not sure how you meant it to come off but it, but it certainly sounds like you think less of people who don't need a crutch to get through their troubles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangelove Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Serioisly condescending. Maybe thats why people dislike your religion. Sorry for "buckling" under my torment. Must the lack of the love of god that makes me so weak. Dammit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0123R6vjIoE lmao @ "There's nobody left who isn't American who goes 'No, no, Genesis is historical FACT!'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HotChops Posted March 9, 2011 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 whew... uh, oh boy. I really don't have the time to get into this, but you guys have stirred me -- not in a way, but in a way that I'm compelled to respond. For some reason, my defense to an anti-religious comment on Kotaku won't fucking post there, so I'll post it here, instead. It took me quite some time to write it down, so I might as well post it somewhere. While that kind of rational thinking applies to the human psyche, it doesn't apply to God. God is more than aware of your suffering, and it is in his power to end it. But he chooses not to, not because he is spiteful, but because he is wise. If he gave everything to you, there would be no faith. He gives man the power to decide for him/herself, and the result is a relationship between Him and His people so vast, so powerful that human words can't begin to describe it. Let me put it in gaming terms. One man creates a game that requires you to navigate a treacherous path filled with challenge and mystery. The other man creates a game where you simply have to turn it on, and you are suddenly the winner without any actions required. What would you care about more? Yes, life is far from fair. But when you struggle through it and come out on the other side, your reward is the greatest of all. It's tough love, yet it's the greatest love of all time. We have unanswerable paradoxes because our minds can't even attempt to understand the universe the way He does. I am sorry if this little religious rant turned any of you off. I had to defend my position. I don't think any less of those who don't believe, either. I've gone through many hardships, and many tests of faith, and I can understand why many would buckle under that kind of torment. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I just wanted to let off some steam and defend my point of view in a rational manner. When people tell me life isn't fair, I tell them otherwise. It's not life/God/the universe that is unfair to you, but your fellow man. Both intentionally and unintentionally, it's because someone acted upon your life. We're faced with many trials, and if you're religious, tests of faith. For a long period of time I thought I was going to have the worst years of my life ahead of me. I was getting really depressed, and it started to show. Yet I never fully gave in. No one is destined to be miserable and you have the (God given) ability to seek happiness and find it in the smallest of cracks along the road of life. TL;DR Opposition in all things, bro. I appreciate that you both acknowledge that life can be hard, but I don't think that you guys fully grasp just how hard it is for a lot of creatures. I don't believe that anyone is "destined" for anything, because I don't believe in destiny. But I do believe that some creatures are born into an existence that is so miserable and/or brief that it would have been better if they had never existed at all. Normally, I would cite dozens of examples from children with terminal illnesses, to the WWII Holocaust, to the lives of insects/animals that are snuffed out in the most callous of ways. But I'm short on time right now, and I'll have to go into that more later. Likewise, it's not just creatures that cause misery, it's the universe itself. Nature, the cosmos -- whatever you want to call it -- is chaotic, random, and at times, terribly cruel. And I understand that you're trying to be positive and uplifting with your words, and to many people, they may find it uplifting, but I personally find some it to be presumptuous and condescending. Again, I will go into that more when I finish my last two days of classwork. Very good point. I never understood the proverbial stick up the butts of many Atheists on the internet. Yes I understand that your father doesn't love you. I know that your mom used to take you to church when you'd rather be watching Muppet Babies. That's no reason to get all pissed at someone for saying "God Bless You" when you do something nice or when a movie/song/game/book has a Christian influence to it. Seriously, you have no right to insult the religious beliefs of others (except Mormons and Scientologists ) Get over it! And this one is important: I am an atheist. Atheism only describes one aspect of my views -- a lack of belief in the supernatural or superstition. It does not describe my spiritual views (or lack thereof), nor does it describe my sense of ethics and morality. Far too often, people speak of atheism as if it is a religion or personality cult, and the reality is just the opposite. In response specifically to Battra, I am not a person who goes nuts over more trivial things like the phrase "God bless you," but I do have issues with something like the phrase "under God" within the American Pledge of Allegiance -- I'm not protesting every day, but it's enough of an issue that it's worth noting and voting accordingly. More importantly, I am not someone who was molested by priests, or victimized (significantly) by religion on behalf of my parents. I grew up Methodist, and proudly so, for more than 20 years. I was active in churches, religious summer camps, and my college church organization. Up until the age of 23 I believed in the God of Abraham, and that his son -- Jesus -- was the messiah. However, for the last five years I have been a firm atheist/secular humanist. These views are not based on anger or resentment. My views are rooted in a fundamental understanding of science and logic, and supported by theological and philosophical contradictions that I struggled with from a young age. My mother is a progressive Methodist minister, but she did not become so until I was 18 and living on my own. The rest of my family and the predominant majority of my local population (North Texas) is religious and we get along pretty well despite our differences. Again and again, I'm really short on time. So I'll just summarize my core stance and then come back to support it more later: Religion and spirituality have helped and harmed humanity for the last 10,000 years. It has been a source of comfort, morality, and structure in an otherwise dark and chaotic world. It also has been the the root and result of massive ignorance; a justification for inhumane laws, and terribly violent actions; and most recently, a major hindrance to the societal evolution of humanity. In an age before science, religion arguably provided more than it stifled and stole, but in the modern age when we have the power to understand why people get sick, how our planet formed, our relation to other creatures, and vulnerability of our species, human beings need to learn to embrace the power of objectivity over superstition. Because after all, that's what religion is. It's mass superstition. Believing that you have to worship a particular deity in order to be granted access to an unproven afterlife is no different than believing that you have to avoid a black cat to prevent catastrophe. Sure there are many people who take comfort and strength in that superstition, and they are free to do so, but that freedom ends when the person believes that their superstition is FACT. There is an appropriate time and place for objectivity and spirituality. When humanity needs to figure out how to overcome the impending threats of WMDs, massive viral outbreaks, and global extinction events; to setting policies that dictate the right to health and happiness of other creatures; and find ways to cure terrible diseases and break the bonds of Earth's gravity -- WE NEED OBJECTIVITY. We need facts. We need science. When it comes to dealing with a terminal illness, or coping with the loss of a loved one, or examining existential questions about the absolute origin of the universe and all creation, that's when spirituality, superstition and philosophy are acceptable. Even then, limits are needed. For example, I don't fault my grandma for believing that my recently-deceased, 21-year-old cousin is in Heaven. She needs that to deal with her loss. However, I do fault some pissed off person who honor-kills his daughter so that the rest of his family can make it to Heaven. Unfortunately, as with politics, most people can't seem to rationally and calmly discuss these things. I believe that I can, and I get by everyday with thousands of religious people because the truth is that religion doesn't play as tangible a role in day-to-day life as people think it does -- not even here in the Bible Belt. My neighbors just assume I'm Christian because I'm always kind and compassionate towards them and their children. I obey the laws, mow my lawn and function just like every other good citizen. Likewise, I don't treat my neighbors harshly because of their religious beliefs because they rarely impact their way of life. For example, when their kids get sick, they don't just pray that the disease will disappear -- they take their kids to the doctor and get medicine. Despite their religious devotion, they are more secular and humble before the influence of science than they even realize. On the flipside, when my loved ones are dying, and I get scared, I also find myself yearning for the aid of divine being. I too, find myself hoping for a balancing force in the universe. So there's no need for people to get too riled up in this thread. We all share far more in common than we may initially realize. What matters is our actions and the results they produce. Pretty much everyone who comments in this thread does so for the same reasons -- to improve the lives of those who read it and make the world a better place. So please don't be too upset about what I have to say. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgetfulBrain Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I used to be somewhere between agnostic and athiest, but I'm becoming a staunch athiest as life progresses. I very rarely speak about my views to anyone who doesn't agree, however, because as much as I dislike organized religion, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind and they're not going to change mine, and I'm generally fine if religion makes someone happy, it's just not something I will ever be able to get behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 You can have the viewpoint that the cosmos is random and chaotic, but do you really wish to believe it's out to get you? That's what I'm referring to when I mean "life isn't fair." I just find, and have ran into people, that want to brush off any hope of happiness because they say, "life isn't fair." Like, I dunno, it's the end-all-be-all counter argument to anything positive. I hope no one found my comment condescending. I'm usually pessimistic as an individual, but if you've read my comments before you know it's towards humanity rather than the entirety of existence. If anything, people shouldn't give up looking for happiness. I personally know that it can feel like you're doing far more work than others. Heck, I had to jump through a couple more hoops than others to get a college education, but I'm here and in the field of my choice. Either way, I'll probably end up as the guy caught in the middle here. I have the unique prospect of being the guy being undesirable to either spectrum of religious debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Ethan I think you're maybe bolding that because you're reading that the wrong way around. It's saying folks outside the US are pretty well aware the bible is a metaphorical allegory on how to live your life n such, not something that goes in the library with a "900" sticker on the spine. He's not saying that all folks in the US regard it as such, just that pretty much all folks out the US don't. Personally I'm an Atheist CofE Christian. That's mostly cos as far as my mum is concerned not believing in god and been a Christian aren't mutually exclusive things. I'm not really up for arguing with her on the matter. I can see her point of view. (I was christened, I'm down on many forms as christian, I've been to chruch etc. I even own a bible...somewhere). It's not like she's much religious herself. I reckon if questioned on the matter she's probably agnostic. Religion has certainly never been a huge part of my life. I think my gran on my dads side is the only one who goes to church semi-regularly. For the rest of us it's weddings, christenings and funerals (never been to a funeral myself though). Religion is just a thing going on in the background. I'd imagine it's similar for hot heart n the rest too. I'd say most folks don't follow the bible as fact, more as something that starts genesis with "once upon a time...". I just don't know if UK Christians are not doing it right, or the 80% of folks who tick the Christian box are illiterate. Or if it's the reverse and US Christians are a bit OTT. Just cos they seems so different to be in the same religion. Wikipedia says it best: "According to the 2001 UK census, Christianity is the major religion, followed by Islam, Hinduism, Jediism, Sikhism, Judaism and Buddhism in terms of number of adherents. Though each country that makes up the UK has a long tradition of Christianity that pre-dates the UK itself, in practice all have relatively low levels of religious observance and today are secular societies." Basically we just go through the motions of Christianity. Like Shrove Tuesday yesterday, Ash Wednesday today. We have Easter weekend, we go to weddings, we do christenings, etc. But folks don't really follow the religion itself or much give a rats arse about it. You're Christian? Good for you. Jew? well done. Muslim? How'd you do. If you have faith, if you've found a way of life that works for you, then that's great. I think we all kind of look for a guide book to life, some write our own and others go through the pre-made ones. I certainly respect that people can have blind faith, especially in this day and age. Though I'll never respect people preaching their religion of choice. And that includes atheism (as mason found out...) I'm rather happy with out current level of Christianity in the UK. Folks generally follow through with the morals n stuff, and we get nice festivals each year n weddings and such to go to. But it's not too big that the contents of the thousand+ year old bible dictates our laws n such. Oh and my dad loves me very much. Just so we've got that clear. edit: and it turns out folks posted some more. @Hotchops I am not a person who goes nuts over more trivial things like the phrase "God bless you," but I do have issues with something like the phrase "under God" within the American Pledge of Allegiance -- I'm not protesting every day, but it's enough of an issue that it's worth noting and voting accordingly. That "In god we trust" and "One Nation under God" stuff still amuses me to this day. That we're the nation who made our own christian chruch, and you're the nation with the specific bit in the constitution saying church n gov't shouldn't cross. Yet we're the nation with Darwin on our money and you guys have "In God We Trust". As for the rest of your post. One of those green tickers is me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgetfulBrain Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Either way, I'll probably end up as the guy caught in the middle here. I have the unique prospect of being the guy being undesirable to either spectrum of religious debate. I'm that guy when it comes to politics! Politics and religion - the two subjects that can break casual friendships into tiny pieces in no time at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 You can have the viewpoint that the cosmos is random and chaotic, but do you really wish to believe it's out to get you? That's what I'm referring to when I mean "life isn't fair." I just find, and have ran into people, that want to brush off any hope of happiness because they say, "life isn't fair." Like, I dunno, it's the end-all-be-all counter argument to anything positive. I hope no one found my comment condescending. I'm usually pessimistic as an individual, but if you've read my comments before you know it's towards humanity rather than the entirety of existence. If anything, people shouldn't give up looking for happiness. I personally know that it can feel like you're doing far more work than others. Heck, I had to jump through a couple more hoops than others to get a college education, but I'm here and in the field of my choice. Either way, I'll probably end up as the guy caught in the middle here. I have the unique prospect of being the guy being undesirable to either spectrum of religious debate. I thought your original post was good (as was the follow up I quoted). Certainly not condescending - it they seem very reasoned and like you have a good justification for your thoughts. The best part? I cannot tell if you believe in God or not. That is the best way you can be in a discussion like this (and in life generally): to give your opinions without ramming beliefs (whether pro or anti religion/god) into it which will only put half the people off what you're saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yeah, I don't care what anyone is, just so long as we can get along and not be spiteful of whatever someone has chosen to guide their life. Usually I tend to be subtle with my religious beliefs because I know there are some, both the religious and non-religious, that would go ballistic and harass me on every bullet point they have on their propaganda sheet. I let people come to me with questions; that way no one feels uncomfortable simply by being around me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I may form a new religion with you as the Deity, Atomsk88. Everything you're saying is so... reasonable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 You can have the viewpoint that the cosmos is random and chaotic, but do you really wish to believe it's out to get you? That's what I'm referring to when I mean "life isn't fair." I just find, and have ran into people, that want to brush off any hope of happiness because they say, "life isn't fair." Like, I dunno, it's the end-all-be-all counter argument to anything positive. See I'm all for happiness and such in life. I don't think that religion is the be all and end all to acquiring that. Just one amongst many ways. Folks just kind of find something that works for them. And it's not like being religious guarantees happiness either. You just have to find that balance in yourself on what makes you happy and strive for that. If the prospect of eternal life in heaven makes you happy, then go for it. Unrelated: one pet peeve of mine is folks who don't know the three Abrahamic religions. I don't know if it's crappy RE teaching, ignorance or wilfully choosing to ignore it. But yeah, it's kinda crappy when folks dig on Islam and not realise Christianty, Judaism and Islam are sister religions and all follow the same dude in the sky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) I'm that guy when it comes to politics! I can't imagine someone as personable as you holding a distasteful view on politics. I won't have it! Edited March 10, 2011 by Hot Heart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Serioisly condescending. Maybe thats why people dislike your religion. Sorry for "buckling" under my torment. Must the lack of the love of god that makes me so weak. Dammit. Didn't mean to say it like that. I meant this; At some point in everyone's lives, we go through some serious shit. Maybe it's the loss of a loved one, the destruction of our livelihoods, or a serious medical illness. At that crossroads, we take a definite stance on what we believe; we either follow God, or we choose to ignore/not believe in Him. Either way is fine with me. Like I said, I don't think any less of people who go the other way. Again, sorry. Didn't mean it that way, and the last thing I want to sound like is those "God hates fags" assholes. I have a rather open view on sexuality; some guys were made to love guys, and some girls were made to love girls. The only acts that are really judged are evil ones, like murder or rape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Ethan I think you're maybe bolding that because you're reading that the wrong way around.It's saying folks outside the US are pretty well aware the bible is a metaphorical allegory on how to live your life n such, not something that goes in the library with a "900" sticker on the spine. He's not saying that all folks in the US regard it as such, just that pretty much all folks out the US don't. No, I just bolded it to make clear that that was the part that amused me so much. I know what he was saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 we either follow God, or we choose to ignore/not believe in Him. I take issue with this viewpoint: it's not a choice. If it were a choice then I would choose to believe in God and seek forgiveness from Him for my sins and whatnot, because as people so often point out that is the "safer" option. However, regardless of how appealing a belief is, or how much I might truly want to believe it, I cannot will myself to belief something that just doesn't make any sense to me. Disclaimer: if my tone comes across as hostile I assure you that I do not mean it to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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