Mister Jack Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Bronco is mandatory in 1999 mode, as I've come to learn. Those few seconds are the difference between life and death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) Just met my first and second Patriot. Fucking nearly shat myself when he speeds up and starts chasing you. There was a very high pitched scream in the room, and it wasn't Elizabeth. I also beat the level and decided to Reveal hidden contents Spare Slate Hopefully that doesn't bite me in the ass as he didn't seem like the sane sort. Edited March 29, 2013 by Waldorf And Statler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Actually regarding that (p.s don't read til later) Reveal hidden contents I'm somewhat disappointed it didn't really lead to anything apart from him being in a cell later. Though Elizabeth reacts to my "putting him out his misery". In fact as best I can tell not one of the choices leads to anything story or gameplay wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurial Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Beat it earlier this morning on hard. Jesus Christ that ending battle was impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Why are people having trouble with patriots? You can just melee them to death once you take down the guys around them.Just finished it on hard. Was pretty disappointing; moreso than Bioshock 2. The shields and 2-weapon limit totally ruined it. The best part about Bioshock was all the crazy combinations you could pull off with weapons/spells/environmental stuff. The weapons are dull in this one; it's just the usual shotguns/rifles/explosives weapon selection every other FPS on the planet has, with the generic capacity/accuracy/damage upgrades. Where the hell is my electric buckshot? My Liquid Nitrogen launcher? My friggin trap bolts of all things! The spells aren't nearly as interesting either; serving mostly to stun enemies or decrease the distance between you and them so you can get a melee attack in; but they don't really combine with specific ammo types or environmental effects (if you can call them that anymore; most of them need to be summoned) the way they did in Bioshock 1 and 2. Along with the shield system this quickly turns it into a typical cover shooter. It got me to build my character around melee combat; which was kind of interesting until that damn graveyard fight; though in all honesty I think having a melee character is the most efficient way to play.One thing that I loved was the sound. I rarely ever even notice when a game has good sound or not, but Bioshock and Bioshock infinite would be the exception to that rule (Bioshock 2 gets left out for having the most annoying footsteps sound effects in history). Beyond just having amazing cues to help exploration, the real treat was the anachronistic songs. It's really amazing how they took the Beach Boys "God Only Knows" and made it their own; not only in the presentation of it as a 1913 barbershop quartet but also in the way that the otherwise mundane pop lyrics become an analogy for the entire story. I won't be able to hear that song the same way again. One more thing... Dear, Elizabeth: Reveal hidden contents Damnit woman, I just watched you whip up a two ton barricade out of thin air; what do you mean you have no more health packs for me? What's this? Oh, a gun? Where the hell are you keeping these things? I'm twice your size and I can't carry more than a pistol and a shotgun and you seem to be carrying the games entire arsenal; fully loaded too. In those years that you spent learning to decipher abnoxious codes, did you ever happen to come across a book that told you where the trigger was? Getouttahere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Loved the game. While, as Neostarr pointed out, it didn't have quite the customization of Bioshock, I was fine with it. A splendid single-player romp. And I don't know why anyone has any issues with the ending. AAA seller would buy again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I went through this thread a bit more and realized that nobody gave a good explanation for the ending yet; so here goes (Contains spoilers for Bioshock 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...)... Reveal hidden contents "If you should ever leave meThough life would still go on believe meThe world could show nothing to meSo what good would living do me"-Beach Boys, God Only KnowsThe obvious thing is that there are multiple universes (or dimensions, however you wanna look at it). People make different choices in different universes. However, the game suggests that a person is not defined solely by their decisions and so the outcome across different universes remains the same. Lutece (who I assume is one person) has figured out a way to pass between universes. They help create Columbia and advise Comstock, allowing him to build a cultish influence to finance their efforts. They accidentally sterilize Comstock during an experiment and, needing an heir to the throne, abduct his daughter from another universe. Comstock has them killed to hide his daughters origins from his people so their unquestioning faith will continue. In doing this however, Lutece did not simply die but rather transcended time and space (unless I missed an audio journal or something, the game suggests this happened because physics are magic). This alerted them to the upcoming catastrophe in New York, and as a result they brought Dewitt to another dimension to find his daughter and interrupt the course of time. Dewitt is inherently evil. He thinks he makes choices for himself but ultimately cannot escape that fact. Regardless of his baptism, he'll either lose Elizabeth or lock her up. The only way he can save Elizabeth from entrapment and New York from disaster is by removing himself (and thus her) from the equation.The interesting part; Rapture is a parallel universe. The people are the same but the names have changed. Dewitt is Jack, Comstock is Andrew Ryan, Fontaine is Fitzroy, and Elizabeth is the original little sister. If you look up the BS1 cutscene where you kill Ryan you'll notice a lot of parallels in what's revealed there and the events of BSI. Both Jack and Dewitt struggle with implanted memories, both of them are blood relatives of the main antagonist, both are looking to free the same little girl from imprisonment. Dewitt can even operate the bathysphere in Rapture; which in the original game had a genetic lock on it.Some speculation: At the (good) end of Bioshock 1, Jack adopts the little sisters. This would suggest that Bioshock 1 was, in a sense, the best possible outcome for the protagonist and the caged girl. However, as a result of the death by baptism, it can be assumed that the events of Bioshock never happened and we returned to the timeline we know in real life. It could have also been a universe created by Elizabeth during the years in which her tears were a form of wish fulfillment; as it is so far removed from the other universes.It's not quite the shot-to-the-face twist that the original game had. In relation to the gameplay it seems like they were originally trying to say something about multiple playthroughs, but the gameplay/story relation isn't as explicit as it was in Bioshock outside of the stuff about the bird or the cage.It really is that simple. I think a lot of people who were confused by it actually understand more than they realize. It is unnecessarily convoluted (when your story involves as many complex themes as metaphysics, illegitimate children, religion, gambling debts, time travel and amnesia, well frankly you're trying too hard). If you dig it; I'd highly recommend giving The Stanley Parable a go. Same idea there. It's probably the only game I'd recommend watching on YouTube since somebody has done a very concise playthrough in 30 minutes where you get to see every possible outcome. I would put money on the idea that one of the DLC packs will involve an alternate universe where you do not pick ball 77, you side with Fitzroy, and she kills you. In other words the events leading up to the third universe in the main story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Pumped seven hours in on hard which isn't too hard (I just got another offer that I might not be able to refuse). So far I think its good but the gameplay can be generic in the indoor areas. I wasn't expecting to be limited to two weapons so I'm moving towards a shotty/sniper combo... a staple of most other shooters I play. I'm finding myself not using vigors as much as I hoped since my mouse lacks extra buttons which makes using vigors a pain (Left: Shoot. Middle: Melee. Right: Aim). If I can get a mouse with one more bottom, I'll be set. So far, I'm thinking it'll turn out like Spec Ops: The Line. Average gameplay, great atmosphere/story. I'm really digging everything on that side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Ah, knew it on the weapons (or at least figured I did). Has been a while (years) since I played Bioshock, so wasn't quite confident enough to go "is it me or are the weapons more generic?". Incidentally this was brought to my attention. I'd only really seen the 2010 video, which was clearly scripted, this however seems to be pretty much proper gameplay. It's from E3 2011, so mid 2011, and a year before initial release. Nearly a year after this video is when the game got pushed back to the current 2013 window. Something clearly happened in early 2012 that took them back to the drawing board and rebuilding the game from the ground up. I think most striking is how the UI/HUD is so different to the original Bioshocks, but now looks and acts the exact same way as the first two. The levels were much larger here too, especially for the ziplines (which I've already commented on being a bit bummed there wasn't as much skyline fighting going on as trailers suggested). The story too, there's clearly audio assets re-used between this demo and the eventual game, so elements here n there. But Vox Populi are seen as much more oppressive as presented in released Infinite, Reveal hidden contents which was a bit of a sticking element in Infinite with how it all magically changes stepping through tears. And also how they're going to Comstock House for help from Comstock, as opposed Reveal hidden contents to go kill him . And the slight story element of her not being able to control her powers, which work fine in Infinite Reveal hidden contents barring the Siren . It'll be interesting to see a "Bioshock Infinite: The Final Hours" on this game. It was clear in playing it that the original concept of Manifest Destiny/American Exceptionalism etc was dropped in favour of a religious and populist element and heavy focus on Elizabeth and her story. In seeing the video above it's clear that gameplay elements were also dropped in favour or a more comforting Bioshock 1/2 UI. The sound was pretty neat. As far as ending goes Reveal hidden contents I think most of us grasped how it played out, though if you're someone who skips the audio tapes you're fucked for comprehension. It's more an issue that, as you say, being overly convoluted with "metaphysics, illegitimate children, religion, gambling debts, time travel and amnesia", not helped by the 15-20 minutes of "walk forward to continue story exposition". Might as well have dumped up a text file to read through. Also from my understanding they kill you at the moment of your baptism, but you're the same Brooker that has already passed on the baptism, given up Elizabeth/Anna, then dragged into Comstocks universe (where a Brooker seemingly also exists alongside him for Slate to know you) to rescue her back. You're now an older Brooker than baptism Brooker. The Elizabeths kill the Brooker that has already done the things they're trying to stop. Also post credit scene then ends up invalidating the whole lot anyway. Also I don't think Rapture is an alternate Columbia, from the 122 coin flip experiments and "He doesn't row" stuff it's kind of clear that Columbia is the parallel Columbia. The 122nd one to be made in their efforts to change the past in fact. There's narrative similarities and it matches the "History repeats itself" mantra, but not a parallel Columbia. (oh I'm off for most of today so likely won't get a response to responses til tomorrow) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurial Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Also wasn't there supposed to be an element of how Elizabeth couldn't use the tears too often? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 In response to Deans response to the ending; Reveal hidden contents Explalain how Booker uses the bathysphere if rapture is not an alternate Columbia. In Bioshock; Ryan locked them up so only his DNA could operate them. This is why the signs say the bathysphere is off limits. Jack was able to us them as well since he was Ryan's son. Booker must share the same genetic code or he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Quote Also from my understanding they kill you at the moment of your baptism, but you're the same Brooker that has already passed on the baptism, given up Elizabeth/Anna, then dragged into Comstocks universe (where a Brooker seemingly also exists alongside him for Slate to know you) to rescue her back. You're now an older Brooker than baptism Brooker. The Elizabeths kill the Brooker that has already done the things they're trying to stop. Also post credit scene then ends up invalidating the whole lot anyway. By the end of the game, Anna/Elizabeth has the same power as Lutece. This is shown when she takes you to the spot with all the lighthouses; this is a place beyond space and time where every parallel universe is within one moment of each other. The pond where she takes you at the end of the game is similar; which is why she can technically kill all the different Bookers in this one spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) Reveal hidden contents Nothing wrong with a little exposition at the end of a game if it's necessary. I don't see the issue there. You finish the game and the threads of the narrative come together (loosely in some cases). Isn't the best game ending, but it brought the story to a proper close. It isn't inordinate in its length or anything. As far as it being unnecessarily convoluted: I disagree. It's only unnecessarily convoluted if you're bumbling around, the sort of all-these-limes writer who's having trouble juggling the themes while maintaining clarity and continuity. I did notice a few plot holes or unexplained threads, but I don't know whether I just happened to miss something there. Generally, I had no trouble understanding what happened. I don't really see the issue with the changes they made either. That's something that happens naturally in the development cycle. Game was enjoyable. Doesn't matter how it got there. Edited March 30, 2013 by Saturnine Tenshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I haven't finished the game yet, but I truly am enjoying the experience. I have been noticing the changes from the earlier design where Booker and Elizabeth would be playing a more active role in Columbia's affairs. Stopping a public sentencing, choosing whether to engage a certain character who threatened Booker, and etc. There have been moments in the game where it felt like it should have been an option. For example, the two men who try to rob Booker outside the bar in Shantytown. I thought I would have an option, but rather than a button prompt, it was either choosing to shoot the men or turn around. The combat feels like a mix between the first BioShock and the second game. One of the biggest downside to the first was the combat. The plasmids were so awkwardly incorporated into combat where you either chose to shoot your guns, or shoot your plasmids. As Delta in the second game, you duel-wielded, which was massively fun. Thing is, that was a Big Daddy and Booker is human. Infinite is like a 1.5 in combat. You don't have so many weapons because you're put into a position where you'll have to use vigors in conjunction with guns. Honestly I don't care for how many vigors have a trap function and would like some to have a "stream" effect where you hold down to inflict as much damage as needed rather than stunning enemies. It would have been nice to have three weapon slots than two, so I could have a long, mid/specialty, and short range layout. Still, at the same time you can find weapons once you defeat enemies or look around, so you're never without an option to switch out (especially with Elizabeth opening tears). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) Gameplay get a slight boost for a minor thing... you can shoot down incoming RPG fire. Also I'm getting better at Patriot fights which consist of throwing everything I have at it (Fire with bounce)... and fuck that switch. FUCK THAT SWITCH. Edit: Finished. Reveal hidden contents Initial reaction to the ending portion... Whoa! Ending itself was good even though I don't know how I feel about it but you folks are helping me process it. Only major thing I think is that they got to explain Lutece. S/He is the really odd one. Audio logs points to Lutece being one person since her twin came out of nowhere. Lutece somehow put the story into motion. Edited March 31, 2013 by MaliciousH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Aw yeah, beat 1999 mode and got all the collectibles. Now I just need to go back with the chapter select to get the trophies I missed and I'll have platinum'd this bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 On 3/30/2013 at 12:56 PM, NeoStarr said: In response to Deans response to the ending; Reveal hidden contents Explalain how Booker uses the bathysphere if rapture is not an alternate Columbia. In Bioshock; Ryan locked them up so only his DNA could operate them. This is why the signs say the bathysphere is off limits. Jack was able to us them as well since he was Ryan's son. Booker must share the same genetic code or he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Quote Also from my understanding they kill you at the moment of your baptism, but you're the same Brooker that has already passed on the baptism, given up Elizabeth/Anna, then dragged into Comstocks universe (where a Brooker seemingly also exists alongside him for Slate to know you) to rescue her back. You're now an older Brooker than baptism Brooker. The Elizabeths kill the Brooker that has already done the things they're trying to stop. Also post credit scene then ends up invalidating the whole lot anyway. By the end of the game, Anna/Elizabeth has the same power as Lutece. This is shown when she takes you to the spot with all the lighthouses; this is a place beyond space and time where every parallel universe is within one moment of each other. The pond where she takes you at the end of the game is similar; which is why she can technically kill all the different Bookers in this one spot. Reveal hidden contents Because of plotholes? For one Andrew Ryan and Brooker look nothing alike, both in young age and old. There's also nearly half a century between them too. What Brooker likely had was a healthy dosing of "I'm walking around with a godlike being", and "if this bathysphere didn't work it would stall the ending somewhat". It's fan service, nothing more nothing less. It works out much simpler that way too, because if it truly was one of the alternate Columbia's there's a shit ton more issues with the story than "he can use the bathysphere to advance the ending plot". I understand why she can kill all the resulting Brookers in this one spot, but she kills one of the resulting brookers, the 122nd Brooker, not the original 1st Brooker that made the initial choice. @Tenshi Reveal hidden contents There is a bit wrong when, as mentioned, it's a game that works through telling the story through environment, actions and voice diaries. Though as noted the seemingly major shift between the original pre-2012 plot and the 2013 plot would explain the need for a 20 minute wrap-up and semi-explanation of the story. As for maintaining continuity and clarity, the entire plot struggles with that. Never mind the ending. The biggest part is you're asked to get guns for the Vox Populi in order to get the airship back. So you go to gun shop to find him taken. So you go to the cells to find him dead. So you jump through a tear to where he's alive at the gun shop but with no tools, so you travel to police station to get the tools only to find them too heavy (well durr, Brooker had already seen them), so you jump through another tear to a reality where there in the shop, and end up in an even bigger war because he's dead (again, so how'd they get the guns?). Thus making the entire segment largely irrelevant. But it leaps the plot forward a fair chunk and also saves asset creation since you end up going back and forth to the same spot twice. Reveal hidden contents One element I quite liked, which is somewhat lacking in many games these days, is you can't/don't kill the Songbird. A lot of games set-up some big (as in huge and overpowering) bad and allow you, the player, to eventually kill them. Usually through some semi-scripted battle too instead of utilising regular combat mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents It's a game that works however the devs want it to work. Doesn't need to be exclusive to one method. Put the two together and you've got a fairly clear story. So no, there isn't anything wrong where I'm concerned. I also noticed the Vox Populi part. I will agree it was bothersome, but I just assumed that, through the help of Booker, they acquired guns typically meant for the . . . whatever the Columbia defenders were called. Caches and all. Yes, there's some murkiness there, but that doesn't somehow supplant the overall clarity or continuity. Unless you're one of those types who feel the writer should not give the end-user any amount of credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I didn't wanna have to do this to you Dean... Fuck it, I'm citing the wiki! http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Rapture#Relation_to_Bioshock:_Infinite (massive spoilers, obviously) I honestly think it would be a much bigger plothole if they solely included that scene as fan service. I thought the relation would be pretty obvious to people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 You're citing a wiki. Also Reveal hidden contents even the wiki still doesn't imply it's an alternate Columbia. When you visit alternate Columbia's it's always consistent. For one it's always Columbia. Lutece is Lutece or Lutece, Brooker is DeWitt or Comstock, Anna is Annabelle or Elizabeth. All, beyond Lutece, physically exactly the same people, with slightly different names and choices in their past. Rapture is a different time and place, populated by completely unrelated people, much like 1983 New York and Paris which you also temporarily visit. Just a narratively similar story, Hero of a 1000 faces style. I'd already mentioned the similarities in tech and powers before now so the wiki wasn't really some massive revelation in that. @Tenshi Reveal hidden contents Sure a dev can make a game how they want, it's their baby to mess with. Doesn't mean how they make it can't be jarring and badly pulled off. edit: And a Bioshock wallpaper someone threw up on reddit for those that want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents It's not like the alternate universes just started happening when Booker was baptised though. The only alternate universes you see up until the ending are ones that involve decisions made in Columbia, so of course you're always going to see the same people with the same names. Rapture could have been the result of Bookers great great great great grandparents decisions. The bloodline continues, maybe with different names, but the outcome is essentially the same. There are literally INFINITE BIOSHOCK possibilities; geddit? It's a bit to explicit to write off as fan service or god powers. Edit: The Lutece's are the same person with different names and appearances, for instance; I don't see why this couldn't happen to others. Double Edit: The musical anachronisms would also suggest that it doesn't matter when the events happen, just that they're destined to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents Sure alternate realities in general aren't, but it is explicitly stated the alternate Columbias are a result of the baptism, hence you being killed there to close the threads/loops. And even if Andrew Ryan was a russian cousin 532 times removed, it still wouldn't make Rapture an alternate Columbia. Going along those lines you end up with the One Electron theory, but with people instead and that just gets silly. I already mentioned the Lutece's. They're exactly the same person apart from the XY XX combo. Brooker and Comstock are both born in late 19th century in America and are veterans of Wounded Knee, both also carry out a baptism. One decides against, the other goes through with it. One has a child, the other founds Columbia. Andrew Ryan, who you posit is alternate Brooker/Comstock, is born in Russia in early 20th century. Jack is a genetic clone of Andrew Ryan, as opposed to alternate reality version of Ryan such as Brooker is to Comstock. As far as the in-game laws/rules/mechanics for alternate worlds go Rapture is not an alternate reality version of Columbia but a "history repeats itself" lesson. As for writing it off as "god powers" that's pretty exactly what she has. She pulls a key from thin air just by thinking about it, she's able to see across multiple realities and travel through time, space, realities at will, including creating constructs as a physical manifestation of her powers. She's as close to the man upstairs as you can get without being Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents Elizabeth's quote from the end of the game;"There are a million, million worlds. All different, all similar. Constants and variables. There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city. I can see them through the doors. You, me, Columbia, Songbird. But sometimes, it's different, and yet the same."A quote from one of Fink's voxophones;"These holes have shown me yet another wonder, though I've yet to see the application for it. They illuminate a merger of machine and man that is somehow the lesser, yet the greater, of both parties. The process seems to be irreversible. Perhaps, though, Comstock will have some need of this kind of thing to keep watch in that tower of his."He saw the Big Daddy protecting the little sister through a portal and that's what gave him the idea for Songbird; the Big Daddy equivalent in Columbia's universe.Alternate Columbia's aren't a result of the baptism; the baptism decides whether Booker goes on to become Comstock or Dewitt. The city that occurs is a result of other decisions.A quote from one of Lutece's voxophones;"When I was a girl, I dreamt of standing in a room looking at a girl who was and was not myself, who stood looking at another girl, who was and was not myself. My mother took this for a nightmare. I saw it as the beginning of a career in physics."Columbia is a direct result of Lutece's decision to persue physics; otherwise she'd have probably persued another scientific field, like say genetics, which would have made her Tennenbaum in Bioshock 1.Booker/Jack's history doesn't matter. Whether they were cloned or at wounded knee; those memories are shady at best in either game and there would be an alternate universe where they were not at Wounded Knee but still baptized/not baptized. The key thing is as long as somebody with that particular genetic code exists a girl will suffer and a city will fall, whether that be Rapture or Columbia or New York. Jack's 'baptism' was when he was conditioned by Ryan, and had he not been brainwashed he would have still known about Rapture and theoretically done something to try and stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 On 3/31/2013 at 8:47 PM, NeoStarr said: Reveal hidden contents Elizabeth's quote from the end of the game; "There are a million, million worlds. All different, all similar. Constants and variables. There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city. I can see them through the doors. You, me, Columbia, Songbird. But sometimes, it's different, and yet the same." A quote from one of Fink's voxophones; "These holes have shown me yet another wonder, though I've yet to see the application for it. They illuminate a merger of machine and man that is somehow the lesser, yet the greater, of both parties. The process seems to be irreversible. Perhaps, though, Comstock will have some need of this kind of thing to keep watch in that tower of his." He saw the Big Daddy protecting the little sister through a portal and that's what gave him the idea for Songbird; the Big Daddy equivalent in Columbia's universe. Alternate Columbia's aren't a result of the baptism; the baptism decides whether Booker goes on to become Comstock or Dewitt. The city that occurs is a result of other decisions. A quote from one of Lutece's voxophones; "When I was a girl, I dreamt of standing in a room looking at a girl who was and was not myself, who stood looking at another girl, who was and was not myself. My mother took this for a nightmare. I saw it as the beginning of a career in physics." Columbia is a direct result of Lutece's decision to persue physics; otherwise she'd have probably persued another scientific field, like say genetics, which would have made her Tennenbaum in Bioshock 1. Booker/Jack's history doesn't matter. Whether they were cloned or at wounded knee; those memories are shady at best in either game and there would be an alternate universe where they were not at Wounded Knee but still baptized/not baptized. The key thing is as long as somebody with that particular genetic code exists a girl will suffer and a city will fall, whether that be Rapture or Columbia or New York. The baptism doesn't even have to be a baptism; the act of Jack being brainwashed bears similarities to 'the baptism', and had he not been brainwashed he would have still known about Rapture and theoretically done something to stop it. Reveal hidden contents Actually if Booker was never at Wounded Knee he never would have been baptized. He got baptized specifically BECAUSE of Wounded Knee and the guilt he felt about what he did there. So if he wasn't at Wounded Knee, the baptism wouldn't even be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoStarr Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents The baptism doesn't have to be a baptism. It could be any point where 'The Man' has to choose between his own 'free will' and the will of someone else; whether that be a deity or Ryan or whatever. Edit: Chronological series of events across all universes... - A brilliant scientist helps make a brilliant city, accessed by lighthouse. - A man, the protagonist, chooses between following his perception of free will and giving himself unto someone elses. - A blood relative of that man, the antagonist, enslaves a girl for his own evil means, and uses a half-man, half-robot guardian to protect her from anyone who might interfere. - A class struggle within the city complicates the antagonists plans - The protagonist takes advantage of the situation to rescue the little girl (also, he always seems to do this by taking control of the guardian, whether that's putting on the big daddy costume or whistling to the songbird) - This results in a disaster that destroys an entire city. You can fill in the blanks with literally ANYTHING, that's why it's called Infinite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Reveal hidden contents Yes I'm aware that the Songbird is from Big Daddies and Vigors from ADAM seen through the tears. Same as the barbershop quartet singing a song from the 60's is from tears too, and Elizabeths desire to see Paris. And yes Columbia isn't a result purely of the baptism, but Comstocks leadership of the place is. iirc from the museum he's the one that backed Luteces quantum levitation theory, that powers Columbia, too. Brooker himself remarks upon Columbia not being a thing in his universe. And she wouldn't have ended up as Tannenbaum, because I'm not sure how much I can stress this enough; They are completely different people born many miles and years apart. The Luteces are the shining example of it all. Even being of different gender they still end up on the same line of physics, looks (inevitable, they have the same parents after all), etc just with the minor choice here and there such as heads or tails, bird or cage. And given Brookers history contains a choice that is very explicitly remarked upon to be the cause of all the Columbia kerfuffle, yes the history of the person is exceedingly important and matters very much. That is something there is no vagueness about. edit Reveal hidden contents Those are all thematic similarities though. It's like saying WWI and WWII are parallel universe versions of each other because they both have Germany on one side and Britain on the other. There's just many things that are inevitable throughout history that are duplicated, still within the same reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.