Windows 8

[TheMightyEthan]

The text wouldn't have to be gaudy to be a different color. I think I'd like them a lot more if they were exactly the same except the text was black.

[Eleven]

Anyone here using Windows 8 (well I know some of you who do)?

 

My laptop seems to crash often, and it only started happening, AFAIK, after installing Windows 8 Release Preview. Now, I know it's release preview and I should expect this, but I'm just wondering if anyone else has been having crashes/freezes.

 

As for Win 8. It's pretty good, I think. I like the Start page, as I can pin all my apps and shortcuts in there, and not have my taskbar cluttered or on the desktop. I'm still not sold on the Metro apps though, as there doesn't seem to be good apps yet in the store. So yeah, I'm spending all my time on the desktop for now.

 

But yeah, anybody else experience odd number of crashes? Mine does crash multiple times a week. I think 1 of 3 times I use my laptop, it does crash... Maybe it's just hardware/driver incompatibilities...

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I have it on my work laptop.

 

Mine runs better than Windows 7 even in terms of stabiity. Obviously I have much less installed and Windows 7 is pretty stable as it is.

 

I'm the same way. Nothing in Metro makes me want to use it.

[TheMightyEthan]

I don't think it'd be possible for anything to be more stable than Windows 7 has been for me. I don't remember the last time it crashed on me.

[Eleven]

I guess it's my laptop. My wifi adapter was the first to go so now I had to get a USB one. Maybe something else is failing. Too bad that after I complained the problem hasn't shown itself.

 

The People app on Win 8 when linked to facebook shows facebook posts. I kinda liked it, but the feed only shows latest updates, i think, and doesn't have an option to show more. Maybe a full blown Facebook app is something I could use.

 

I browsed some twitter apps, but none of them seem to be any good, or at least I don't get what I need. I like reading conversations even if those are between people I don't really follow. The existing apps needs a lot of clicks just to get those.

 

The Photos app is actually really cool too. It's just looks so nice looking through your stored pictures that way. Makes me want to make albums. Too bad it doesn't support the back/forward mouse buttons so it's a pain browsing using the mouse, but it does support the backspace key to go back. I guess it's an app preview anyway so that would explain that. Still a cool app I think.

[deanb]

So a guy I follow on twitter posted this to show "look, Windows 8 is fine to use". Showing off the Start Menu button that isn't there, the right click that doesn't open the context menu, Alt+F4 to power down (you can also hit the power button too, the thing you've always been told not to do) and many other new and intuitive features Windows 8 brings. It's worth noting (since I'm well aware) that this guy does work for MS (though I think part-time cos it seems most of the time he's giving talks n such)

Here's a post I'm amazed no one has posted, looking at where Windows could go and what it could mean for gaming based on the last 20 years of Windows:
http://mollyrocket.c...tream_0004.html

http://www.theverge....indows-8-review - And The Verge review. (Which notes the OS also comes with a tutorial video when you load it up). A lot of issues taken up with how it interacts with kb/m users, whcih is pretty much my impressions from using it. It'd be a great OS if you're using it on a tablet/touchscreen PC. But until they come out it means 99% of the Windows base is on kb/m powered laptops n desktops. Shame multi-monitors is still an issue in Win 8.

I'm just annoyed by how overall shit it is cos there's some nice stuff in it like new task manager and copy dialog, and the Charms seem like Intents and I lurve Intents.

And regardless of whether or not you're liking the OS up to now, it's always worth holding out for the Service Pack.

[TheMightyEthan]

Wait, right-click doesn't open a context menu and Alt+F4 powers down? WTF?

[deanb]

It doesn't open a context menu in Metro Apps. I'd imagine it works as it has done for past few decades when using Desktop mode.

[TheMightyEthan]

Ah, okay.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

A lot of issues taken up with how it interacts with kb/m users, whcih is pretty much my impressions from using it. It'd be a great OS if you're using it on a tablet/touchscreen PC. But until they come out it means 99% of the Windows base is on kb/m powered laptops n desktops. Shame multi-monitors is still an issue in Win 8.

 

 

I'm just annoyed by how overall shit it is cos there's some nice stuff in it like new task manager and copy dialog, and the Charms seem like Intents and I lurve Intents.

 

And regardless of whether or not you're liking the OS up to now, it's always worth holding out for the Service Pack.

 

One thing The Verge doesn't make clear: KB/M is only shit in the Metro environment. If you don't use Metro (I don't in all of these cases I keep talking about) then it works nearly identically to Windows 7. You still click in the corner to access the start menu. It's just that this start menu is now full screen. If you're not a barbarian and type to open up apps it's not an issue.

 

Multi-monitors have improved on Windows 8. What else do people want from that? Personally I have no problems with how it works on 7 but apparently others do.

 

So is it overall shit if it has a feature you don't use? Because that's how I feel about Metro. I just never use it. I don't use the apps. I changed all of my defaults so nothing opens in Metro. It's a full screen start menu and one with multiple options to replace it (Pokki, Stardock's solution, and I've seen one more.) Though I will note that the Win 8 start menu loads and searches faster than the one on Windows 7 which is why I've tried out these replacements and haven't kept them because they're just not as speedy.

 

The real issue is just getting this info out to consumers. I think mixed messages (which is something people have written about in the past week) is the big issue here because Windows 8 tries to appeal to so many people at once. I really cringed when The Verge said "Desktop is just an app." Sorry, but that's not how I use Windows 8 at all. Metro is just an app to me.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[deanb]

If you don't use Metro you may as well just use Window 7. Which at least still has a fully functioning Start menu. Which you can pin stuff to, you only need to go rooting through your start menu with mouse or keyboard for under-used apps which will be the same with Win 8 just now it's big chunky icons in grids instead of kept neat n tidy in tree-structure list.

 

The only "improvement" in Multi-monitor usage is that you can now put one image on one screen and a different image on another (at the moment you either get an image that makes one big panorama, or same image duplicated). The issue though is that the start menu is a full screen program which also runs within it many other programs. Which is a shame as Win 7 was quite the leap forward (minus the individual image wallpapers) as far as in-built support went. One step forward and all that.

 

 

Metro is the start menu, which is something I make use of. I like making use of the button for Start too, but someone at MS decided that folks don't need a button to click and gestures and such are the future. Also given where it is I'm going to assume that also means the removal of my ability to have a stacked taskbar. I like making use of a shut down button too, and certainly don't trust having to use the actual power button on my PC case for the job (since that's an override anyway).

Start menu search replacements don't run as fast as the native start search because of the native start search. It was an issue that Google Desktop came across and Google and MS got in a huge spat over it. If it's still affecting Windows 8 then I assume it's something Microsoft weren't too fussed to accommodate (Google Desktop shut down a while back now anyway).

 

And it doesn't matter what it is to you, Desktop is an App.

 

They should really have just made WindowsRT as their tablet OS, and made "Windows 8" as a proper successor to Windows 7 instead of the current mishmosh of desktop and tablet OS that sucks at both.

[fuchikoma]

Didn't they change the final version to force booting directly to Metro so you have to start the desktop manually? That would make it seem like just an app...

 

Also, since you've spent so much time using it, how strong is the push to use cloud services? Do you use the Windows Live/Passport/online ID login? Any noticeable loss for not using it?

[fuchikoma]

Using the power button to shut down isn't so bad. It's been alright since Win98 or so since ACPI became standard and it just became another software button. I always use it on my laptops - basically it just signals the operating system to shut down all apps, flush disk caches, etc and shut down in an orderly manner. Maybe at worst, the calls to shut down programs would come at a higher priority?

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, on my PC in Windows 7 if I hit the power button it behaves exactly the same as if I'd gone to Start>Shutdown as far as I can tell. If I hold down the power button for 10 seconds it force-powers-off, but that's a different thing entirely.

[deanb]

On mine push = reboot and long push = shutdown(as in power off). It's there as a full override for those times where Windows (though rare these days) completely and utterly fucks up and can't be shut down properly(as in via Start menu). One of my major annoyances of phones of late is the powering down. A long-push on the powerdown is how you bring up the "shutdown" option (of course unlike PC's you're not really meant to turn your phone off that often so it doesn't need to be "right there"), but that's to open the software shutdown, meaning the only hardware override for when the phone fucks up is to remove the battery which is pretty much the equivalent of the power button on the PSU which is on the back of the PC for a reason. Turning of PC's via the hardware button instead of a proper software option in the OS is going to have the chance of frying so many PCs.

 

And yeah I heard about the change in the final builds that stop you being able to boot right into Desktop. Which is going to really piss off their enterprise customers (who'll likely just stick with Win 7 now as they've done with XP)

[TheMightyEthan]

But that's what I'm saying, if you just do a short push of the button it's a software shutdown, even though you used hardware to initiate it. That's why you can go into Windows options and change what that button does. It's the long-push that's a hardware shutdown. So Windows 8 using the short push isn't using hardware shutdown.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

A bunch of shit I deleted so it doesn't take up the entire page but still wanted to show what post I'm quoting.

 

Huh? Windows 8 has a more functional start menu that you can pin stuff to. And see more pinned things at once.

For multiple monitors they added a bit more than that.

You don't have to run those programs within the start menu. I never do.

What use do you have for the start button? You can still click in that spot if that's what you're worried about. It's essentially a start button that auto hides and appears when you get near it.

There's a shutdown button in the charms menu.

How is the desktop an app? It doesn't run inside Metro. I actually feel like it's the opposite. That Metro just runs over the desktop but is given focus when you turn it on.

 

And yeah I heard about the change in the final builds that stop you being able to boot right into Desktop. Which is going to really piss off their enterprise customers (who'll likely just stick with Win 7 now as they've done with XP)

 

Turn on computer. Log in. Click on "Desktop" or just hit the windows key.

 

WINDOWS 8 IS SO FUCKING COMPLICATED HOLY SHIT

[TheMightyEthan]

And yeah I heard about the change in the final builds that stop you being able to boot right into Desktop. Which is going to really piss off their enterprise customers (who'll likely just stick with Win 7 now as they've done with XP)

 

Turn on computer. Log in. Click on "Desktop" or just hit the windows key.

 

WINDOWS 8 IS SO FUCKING COMPLICATED HOLY SHIT

 

He didn't say it was complicated, just that it was stupid. And it is stupid that you can't set the OS to boot to desktop automatically.

[deanb]

@Ethan: Or, as mentioned, a reboot(that's more a quirk of the case, I've normally had reboot on a separate button and power button does nothing unless it's a full press). Which incidentally brings up a question: How'd you do a reboot? Or Sleep? I can't just lay my monitor flat on my desk. I'm not about to "Alt+every F key". There's nothing gained in removing a "Shutdown/Sleep/Restart/Log off/Lock" button from the OS itself.

 

At any one time you can see about the same amount, but you have to make broad sweeping actions across the full screen to pick them, compared to picking them off the list in the bottom corner of your screen. Works great for touchscreens where you don't have the finesse and precision of a mouse but not so great for the mouse users wrist.*

 

And dual taskbars too, I skipped on that. Other than that it's a whole bag of issues cos the OS works on you gesturing in corners and multi-monitor now gives it 8+ corners to deal with and the mouse doesn't stop at 4+ of them. You go a few pixels too far to the left and you're now on a different corner which does something different.

And in some cases you do have to run those programs in Metro. For example MetroTwit, a rather popular twitter client, doesn't run in it's native mode on Windows 8(cos it relies a lot on .Net n WPF stuff, which Win 8 eschews in favour of the new WinRT) . But there is now a Metro App. Which btw is all rather funny given the point of MetroTwit was to emulate the Metro Style (though of the Zune/WinPhone 7 era, Win 8 wasn't announced it started). So you'd need the "Start" open on one screen at all times or you'd lose Metro, and then have to cycle through apps again to re-open it.

 

I use a start button so I can open the Start menu. Bit of a silly question to ask. What is currently the Start button is now Explorer and what opens the start menu is the extreme bottom left corner.

 

And yeah, just highlighting the silliness. Enterprise users won't want to bother with Metro and it'd cost a lot in IT support and retraining to point out the Windows of Old still exists. Thus simpler to just stick with Windows 7 and the desktop and usability that their workers know and love.

 

* incidentally same issue with the right click menus, since context menus spring up from the mouse pointer, but in metro apps they appear at top of the screen.

[fuchikoma]

I can't criticize too much since I've basically just played with release candidates and noped out of there after trying for an hour to shut down... But I do forsee one big thing: Like with many smartphones, I bet we're going to see more users now who have a dozen or more programs open at once because they used them, then switched to something else and "made them go away" thinking they were closed. The taskbar was actually quite a nice revolution in that, and even then, things that hid in the systray often ended up invisible to people.

[deanb]

The new Task Manager does sort of sort that out a bit, but that assumes people go into the Task Manager

[TheMightyEthan]

I consider myself fairly tech savvy and I don't even know how to "exit" half the apps on my phone.

 

Like with many smartphones, I bet we're going to see more users now who have a dozen or more programs open at once because they used them, then switched to something else and "made them go away" thinking they were closed.

 

You mean like with MacOS?

Edited October 24, 2012 by TheMightyEthan

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

@Ethan: Or, as mentioned, a reboot(that's more a quirk of the case, I've normally had reboot on a separate button and power button does nothing unless it's a full press). Which incidentally brings up a question: How'd you do a reboot? Or Sleep? I can't just lay my monitor flat on my desk. I'm not about to "Alt+every F key". There's nothing gained in removing a "Shutdown/Sleep/Restart/Log off/Lock" button from the OS itself.

 

At any one time you can see about the same amount, but you have to make broad sweeping actions across the full screen to pick them, compared to picking them off the list in the bottom corner of your screen. Works great for touchscreens where you don't have the finesse and precision of a mouse but not so great for the mouse users wrist.*

 

And dual taskbars too, I skipped on that. Other than that it's a whole bag of issues cos the OS works on you gesturing in corners and multi-monitor now gives it 8+ corners to deal with and the mouse doesn't stop at 4+ of them. You go a few pixels too far to the left and you're now on a different corner which does something different.

And in some cases you do have to run those programs in Metro. For example MetroTwit, a rather popular twitter client, doesn't run in it's native mode on Windows 8(cos it relies a lot on .Net n WPF stuff, which Win 8 eschews in favour of the new WinRT) . But there is now a Metro App. Which btw is all rather funny given the point of MetroTwit was to emulate the Metro Style (though of the Zune/WinPhone 7 era, Win 8 wasn't announced it started). So you'd need the "Start" open on one screen at all times or you'd lose Metro, and then have to cycle through apps again to re-open it.

 

I use a start button so I can open the Start menu. Bit of a silly question to ask. What is currently the Start button is now Explorer and what opens the start menu is the extreme bottom left corner.

 

And yeah, just highlighting the silliness. Enterprise users won't want to bother with Metro and it'd cost a lot in IT support and retraining to point out the Windows of Old still exists. Thus simpler to just stick with Windows 7 and the desktop and usability that their workers know and love.

 

* incidentally same issue with the right click menus, since context menus spring up from the mouse pointer, but in metro apps they appear at top of the screen.

 

Shutdown shit: It's all in the charms menu. Also, why don't you have sleep automated like everyone else? Plus, it points out how you really don't need to power off your machine all of the time.

Also, if you're clicking the start menu, you're doing it wrong to begin with.

I can't remember how the 4 corners worked with dual monitors. I use Win 8 primarily on my laptop.

What's stopping MetroTwit from making a Win8 desktop app btw? Or stopping you from using another client?

The start hot corner is not the extreme button left corner. They fixed that with the consumer preview. Also, why are you clicking it instead of hitting the windows key? I think it's kind of funny that the people who seem to bitch aren't power users. Which means they're the type that Metro is targeting. I guess I just adapt better.

I'm not sure Windows 8 will require much retraining. It comes with a video that explains shit. I mean fuck, people are idiots when it comes to Windows 7 anyways. I do IT, in my experience people will be dumb no matter what the environment.

As for basically any behavior that is different in Metro vs different in desktop: Who cares? Pick one. Don't use both. You don't need to use both.

 

@Fuchi:

 

If you're the type who uses an app killer on Android you're using the platform wrong. I'm sure Windows 8 (at this point you should probably clarify if you mean RT or Pro) will work the same.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[fuchikoma]

@Fuchi:

 

If you're the type who uses an app killer on Android you're using the platform wrong. I'm sure Windows 8 (at this point you should probably clarify if you mean RT or Pro) will work the same.

 

I don't use Android, but I do have a friend who was aghast to see how much crap ran by default on a Galaxy tablet he got when he used a real task manager instead of the bundled one... I was actually referring more to the app-babysitting mess that iOS became after version 4. Usually you can forget about what you're running and just switch and it'll smoothly slip unused apps into inactive memory and reclaim them as needed. However... sometimes things get sluggish or big games need more RAM, you fire up the app-killing bar and fire away... at like, 20-30 unclosed apps. I also ended up with a ton of apps open in the background a long time ago, messing with some Windows Mobile demo units, but the paradigm seems totally different these days. In fact, it might have even been WinCE back then...

 

 

You mean like with MacOS?

 

Exactly! Great example. These days it's less of an issue since the dockbar is like a taskbar and if I remember right, it puts a dot by running, permanently docked items. Still... I've often seen systems of users I was supporting who had closed all visible windows on multiple programs, but I could still switch tasks and quit each one from its application menu.

[Eleven]

Seriously, guys.

 

I'm with FDS on everything on this one. I upgraded to the consumer preview and everything's great. It starts up great. Desktop is just a click away anyway.

 

Also the Desktop might be an app, but as FDS said it feels the opposite. You can close the desktop (by moving your mouse to the topmost, and then dragging down), but all the windows and programs you opened will still run. And when you "start" the "Desktop App" again, everything is as you left it.

 

Give the start page a chance. I can have ALL my apps pinned in there and they're neatly arranged, just not in a list, but in a grid. I use the start menu a lot too and pin stuff on it, but yeah this new start page is much better IMO. Search still works, like Win 7. Can't find anything on the metro menus? Search it, for now, then look it up on the internet later on where to actually find it.

 

Switching between Metro apps and Desktop apps is kind of a pain. But I don't use Metro apps, as there aren't anything good on the store... yet. However, you can pin metro apps on the left or the right side of the screen, and have Desktop open on the rest of the screen. Good Metro Apps SHOULD use this feature to actually help you multi-task. With regards to twitter, you should be able to see the tweets on a column, for example.

 

Also, right clicking on Metro apps brings out a context menu, just not near the mouse pointer, but rather on the bottom of the app. I agree, it doesn't feel as intuitive as the usual context menu.