Faiblesse Des Sens Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 at like, 20-30 unclosed apps. 0_0 I'm pretty sure Android just starts auto closing apps at that point. Anyone know how it is on WP7 and WP8? Switching between Metro apps and Desktop apps is kind of a pain. A huge pain. Which is why I disabled that hot corner and changed my defaults. You mention bringing up twitter next to your desktop... that's interesting. I never thought of using the Metro apps that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I consider myself fairly tech savvy and I don't even know how to "exit" half the apps on my phone. iirc you're on Android. In which case they'll either 1. exit themselves when they're done. 2. hit the back button instead of home to exit and it closes(depends on app) or 3. hold the Home button and swipe away apps (ICS onwards) @FDS: Cos I'm not up for leaving my PC sit idling for 20 minutes or so before it'll turn off. Nor am I going to enable something that auto-shutdown my PC just because I'm not physically doing stuff with it. Not a great feature when rendering shit off. And yes you do need to shut down your PC, cos I'm not made of money to have it on constantly when it's not needed. A PC uses substantially more power than a phone, which yeah you do leave on all the time. Using the Start menu is "doing it wrong"? lolwut. MetroTwit can't run on desktop cos it uses WPF, which as I said Windows 8 threw out the window in favour of WinRT. Why do you think devs are hating Win 8? And you shouldn't need to be fishing about for alternative clients. MS shouldn't be dumping tech to force folks onto Metro. Hahah, you're classification of "power user" is someone who doesn't click on the start menu but uses the keyboard all the time cos of course keyboard works fucking fantastic for everything. And the OS shouldn't be built to require keyboard use because mouse use has been shat on because of touch. That's bad desktop OS design. It'll likely require retraining, the entire UI is different to the past 7 versions. But as I said given that Win 7 still works, and has likely been paid for already by the company, why bother upgrading n retraining? It's hardly like Microsoft shares have fallen as the lead up to Win 8 arrives for an entirely non-related reason If it was a case of making WinRT/Metro as a tablet OS and "Windows 8" as a proper desktop App then yeah it'd be a simple case of picking one or the other. but MS have crammed the two into one Frankenstein OS instead. Also what's with folks espousing the benefits of the new "Start menu"* then saying you don't have to use it? As for the Android thing, nah I've had mine for to similar points, I think it's a case of how much RAM you have. @Eleven: No one should be needing to search the internet to find programs in their "Start menu". Which is why the current folder structure is fine, everything related to a program grouped together (though Linux start menus are even better) * Seriously, you're saying up above that you say there's mixed messages like "Desktop is an app" (which it is) and then saying that the Metro UI is just like the Start Menu, Except since when have programs ran inside the "Start Menu"? Yes you can launch programs from it, but it's not a start menu. It's a bit more like Steam really, with the library and overlay n such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yeah, I leave my computer off all night and every day I'm at work. No point in having it use power while I'm not using it. But I don't want to set an auto-shutoff time for the same reason: sometimes I have it doing things while I'm off doing something else, and I want it to keep doing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) @Dean, I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying to look for your programs (like where they are located, etc.) on the internet. I was talking about configurations, settings. Look them up on the internet on how to access them (i.e. where they are now). It's the same thing you did on Windows 7 when they moved a bunch of stuff, or added new setting screens. And then I said, in the meantime, if you can't find the thing you're looking for (like power options menu), then just search for it for now, because search still works like in Win 7. Then look it up later on where to find the power options screen in Windows 8. Your comment about folder structures is by preference. If you ask me, I like the Start page, because of how many programs/shortcuts I can pin on it. There's only so much stuff you can pin on the start menu before you run out of space. The start page is like a huge cork board. I get it if you like the old menu better. But I don't think it's a negative. Your programs, or "All Programs" is still in the start menu. It's just now in the metro "context menu", the link to "All Apps". And arranged in a grid. They are still in "folders", but they aren't shown as folders, just all on 1 page (which is kind of a mess I think). But yeah. Search is still there and still the best thing to use to launch programs that aren't pinned on the start page. About Desktop is an App. I don't even know what the problem is that necessitated the comment/complaint "Desktop is an App". And I don't really care. However, as FDS said, and I'm repeating, it feels the opposite. When you say App, you're probably comparing it to MetroTwit or the News app, or the Mail app. But in reality, the Desktop App is very much unlike those apps. These apps you can close and they "die", basically. The Desktop App doesn't die. You can close it, but your programs that you launched on the Desktop, and all the Explorer windows and Chrome or Firefox browsers open will stay open. When you "start" the Desktop app again, all of those will be there. Closing the Desktop App means nothing, that's why the "Desktop is just an app" comment is meaningless. And also why we say that it's more like Metro is running on the Desktop, not the other way around. * Seriously, you're saying up above that you say there's mixed messages like "Desktop is an app" (which it is) and then saying that the Metro UI is just like the Start Menu, Except since when have programs ran inside the "Start Menu"? Yes you can launch programs from it, but it's not a start menu. It's a bit more like Steam really, with the library and overlay n such. Why does it matter if the "Desktop" runs inside the "Start page" or not??? Edited October 24, 2012 by eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) at like, 20-30 unclosed apps. 0_0 I'm pretty sure Android just starts auto closing apps at that point. Anyone know how it is on WP7 and WP8? Does android kill the apps while you're idle, or just when you attempt to open an app that needs more memory? On iOS without jailbreak, or minimal jailbreak tweaks, it kills apps when you start an app that needs it. It freezes apps on the background. Personal experience for me is that it never felt sluggish having too many apps open. I used to obsess closing them. But eventually just let them run in the background and there was no noticeable difference. Of course, if you've experienced it (whoever fuchi's friend was?), I won't argue with you. Anyway... I was asking if android did kill background apps automatically (without opening another app, that is). This was actually a question I posted on a status message. Do you even have to worry about metro apps running in the background? Or are they like iOS / android, which autokills, or freezes them on the background? I'm guessing not because this is not how windows operated before, but maybe they changed it for metro. What does this mean for tablets? Do you have to close Win 8 apps on tablets? Edited October 24, 2012 by eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I didn't need to look anything up on the internet when Windows 7 came out. The UI was largely unchanged, minus the new additions of being able to pin things to the taskbar. The Start menu was as it had been since XP/Vista and the Aero stuff was the same as Vista, which the snap is fairly intuitive as when you go to move the Window draws a shadow of where it'll snap to. As opposed to the intuitiveness of finding the start menu in a "hot corner" and all my programs in a context menu on the thing that purports to being the Start menu-come-new OS. Anything I came across on the net was pretty much that (like the double stacking of my taskbar), as opposed to needing to actively go out on the net and research how to do simple stuff like turn off the computer. Stuff like expanding the amount of pinned bookmarks or adding the second row on the taskbar, getting access to "God Mode" etc are power user things so not being obvious is fine. Turning off a computer or accessing your programs however... As for the opinion of the "cork board" being better I'm amazed FDS is a fan given his usual distaste of people who put icons on desktop for quick access and now the entire start menu is that The Desktop runs within Metro as opposed to the other way around. Regardless of how it "feels" it is an app. The Desktop App is essentially a VM for legacy programs really, it doesn't run the rest of the OS which is the big give away. For example the Control Panel is now a Metro thing, it doesn't run within the main Desktop like yore. As for the quoted part that wasn't about the Desktop running within the "Start Menu", it's about all the other programs that Windows 8 is bringing that run within the "Start Menu". It's a bit dodgy to say on one post about folks callingthe "Desktop an App" (as noted, that's true) when FDS is saying the Metro UX is "just a start menu"(which it isn't. MS didn't spend however many years and millions in making a new Start Menu and calling it job done). Android should kill apps as and when not needed, but some apps will run constantly. For example if I have Steam and music playing and then go and start Browsing and then tweeting then facebooking then gaming the Steam and Music app won't get shut down. As for Windows, it's generally always had things run all the time until you personally close it (or the program closes itself). The Metro apps will(should) close themselves though, the Desktop legacy programs act as they've always done though. Which I guess means the tablet guys should be thankful they'll hardly ever bother with the legacy stuff much since X86 won't run on ARM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Ok.. I see.. Personally, I think the All Apps right now is a mess. It looks like they dumped every shortcut available on another instance of a start page. However, I don't use that at all since I can search. But I see where you're coming from, and I agree that it's a mess. I still like the start page though. Now if I could only replace those square icons with images, it would be even better. Desktop is an App yes. I'm not saying it isn't. It just doesn't feel that way once you start doing your work on the desktop. The Metro UI just becomes a start menu, and it feels like you're calling it up from the desktop (like the old start menu), instead of feeling like "going back" to the main Windows 8 interface and leaving an app. But I'm not gonna drag this any longer than it has to. If they'd allow us to boot to the desktop, this would be more obvious. But since the start page is the first thing you see, what becomes obvious is that the Desktop is an App. Prolonged use will surely change that feeling. There's a difference (for me) with desktop icons and a page with pinned shortcuts. The first just feels messy. I myself feel annoyed (with myself) when I get a ridiculous amount of icons on the desktop. It's like having all these notebooks, books, pens, printouts, scattered on your work desk. With a start page, they're tucked away in a drawer. Just open the drawer and they're there. No need to mess up your desktop with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 btw I think I've linked this in the thread before but here's a video of a regular PC user (so unlike us lot who are a tad more experienced than most) trying Windows 8. You see the problem removing the Start button has (it's worth noting that originally Windows 8 had a Start menu). He never even manages to work on anything else. And the same dude with and . and given some of the things he mentions like even knowing what a PDF is, he's not exactly a complete PC illiterate. And yeah the two other videos are much longer, but you can skip about and get the gist. He at least manages to get on the internet with those two. And yeah I'm up for leaving the Desktop is App thing behind. We all understand it is an app, just it doesn't always feel that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Some of the stuff, like the Metro tiles, seems like the kind of thing that would be great on a tablet or other touchscreen device but seem just weird to put on a desktop. Like trying to drive a car with the control system from a motorcycle. Sure you can do it, but why would you? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchikoma Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) As eleven said, iOS sort of reclaims programs as needed once you leave them. If it doesn't, it can use the RAM image to relaunch them quicker. It's sort of like how deletion works in a FAT filesystem. But I have an iPhone 3GS, so it often gets sluggish or runs out of memory these days. It could just be iOS 5, which is sluggish at the best of times. Hahah, you're classification of "power user" is someone who doesn't click on the start menu but uses the keyboard all the time cos of course keyboard works fucking fantastic for everything. And the OS shouldn't be built to require keyboard use because mouse use has been shat on because of touch. That's bad desktop OS design. [...] @Eleven: No one should be needing to search the internet to find programs in their "Start menu". Which is why the current folder structure is fine, everything related to a program grouped together (though Linux start menus are even better) Definitely agree. MS usually gives a few ways to do something for flexibility and ease of use, but this time they've thrown out a lot of mainstream users' habits to support their new vision. Things like hiding the shutdown menu, making right-click menus appear away from the cursor, or making the "Start menu" a humongous tiled multi-screen mess (because we've never seen a multi-screen minimal text Start menu?) just seems counterproductive and deliberately obfuscates normal functionality. MS has been pushing tablet "enhancements" since at least WinXP, and it's been no secret Bill Gates loved tablets even if he was the only one... but now that he's not running the show, it seems like MS is trying to force everyone to use tablets, just as almost no one has agreed to do in all the previous generations. Restarting is a great example because it's so fundamental. In previous generations I'd press "Win, U, R, Enter." Win7 messed it up a little, so it became "Win, right, right, R." Then I tried Win8... "Win... no, that's not it... Is it this menu? Nope. That one? Nope. Maybe it's in settings? Come on... it has to be pretty clear where it is... Poke here. Poke there. Are you kidding me? There's not even a way to shut it down?" At which point I searched online and found dozens of others with preview builds searching for the same thing. Eventually I ended up using a console command to issue the shutdown as if I was running a server. That is not good OS design - it may be a new low point. It's like the return of MS Utopia. Edited October 24, 2012 by fuchikoma 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 IE is FAST in Windows 8.. woah... I use Chrome but sometimes I need another browser to open gifs or just to log in to another account. Or that odd website not working correctly in Chrome. Good to know I won't have to endure loading times. In release preview, it was still slow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/10/26/microsoft-pegi18-win8/1 They've changed their stance on certification for going on the MS Store. PEGI 18 now a-okay (as long as it's a ESRB M in US. Meaning AO games are banned globally, regardless of local rating) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 At least that means that there will be consistency on what is allowed everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Finally have time to get back to this. =D @Deanb -I never turn off my PC because I can afford a few dollars extra a month for power. I don't know how expensive power is where you live but it's not at all at here. Smartphones cost half a dollar a year to charge. http://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-5-vs-galaxy-s3-how-much-does-cost-charge-them-118866/ Even a 100x that isn't very much over a year. Not to mention powering down and powering up a lot isn't good for your parts. -Clicking on the start menu is less efficient than typing. This is true for both Windows 8 and 7. -My definition of a power user is one who does things fast and efficiently. Which means typing to open up apps. Hell, before Windows 7 power users would use something like launchy for exactly that reason. You have it pretty backwards: Computers had keyboards first and then mice. -7 to 8 of course isn't as big of a jump as XP (to 7 or 8) or Vista to 8. Everyone still isn't even on 7. -The benefits of the new start menu are optional. Personally, I don't like having things split across two environments (though Mac and Linux users might) so I don't bother with Metro apps. It's a start menu that runs apps. Hell, I guess we could call it a launcher or something if you want get stingy about the wording. -I could argue that I only had to look up a few things about Windows 8 because it was largely unchanged, too, if I wanted to make a lazy argument like you did. Jump lists, libaries, and pinning were new ideas that some people still don't get. Making the start menu tiled and open is a change in the same regard. I don't think it takes much figuring out of pressing the big "Desktop" button. Hot corners are something that MS is just years and years behind on. Easy to explain with a tutorial video. Are you making the mistake that any change is inheritently bad? Just because something is changed and you have to learn something new does not make it bad by default. Windows 8 is pretty intutive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dlZgcAacIxU It's just different. The change had to come sometime. -I'm not a fan of things on the desktop, but that's completely different than the new start menu because it actually looks good and makes sense in the updated start menu instead of having some ugly icon on your background. The whole tile system and modern design I've always found to be very elegant even when it was on Zune. -I feel like Metro runs over the desktop. Like eleven said the desktop is always there. It's not even close to a VM. It's seriously exactly what you had before. Desktop as an app isn't true and I'd love to see you prove it. Do you not know the difference between an app and a shortcut? Have you ever seen the "show desktop" shortcut? That was there until Windows 7. -Don't take it so literally when I call it a start menu. Obviously it's capable of more than that. -Old dude video: Windows 8 comes with a tutorial. Also, he couldn't just mouse over to where the start button used to be? The hot corner apperas pretty easily though not in that version of Windows 8 in the video which is from March. @fuchi -The shutdown menu isn't hidden. It's part of an area where it makes a ton of sense and is with other system settings for quick access. That also goes with your complaint about finding it. The charms menu is MUCH easier to navigate if you're unfamiliar with Windows. Similar functions you would all want to access are right there including the control panel. Kind of funny that you can issue a console command but you can't press windows + c. @eleven Yes, IE10 is fast. Since I'm required to use it for work I really hope that IE10 is just as fast on Win7. Fuck formatting cuz I did this shit in notepad++ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Can I just say that calling it the "charms" menu is completely retarded? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I think they were trying to be hip and trendy! About the tutorial: I was expecting something longer. But all it really told me was move my mouse to any corner and stuff will pop out. But I guess that's all you really need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) If they were trying for hip and trendy they failed. It sounds like either something from Carebears, or a list from which I should select what kind of candy I want. Either way it's completely non-descriptive. *Edit* - Maybe the list of sex acts at some kind of high-class brothel. You pick your girl and then select what you want from her "charms menu". Edited October 26, 2012 by TheMightyEthan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchikoma Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Why would I assume to press Win + C though? That's a function that's never been needed before in Windows, and a shortcut for a thing that was (is?) really of questionable utility in the first place when there's a supposedly better alternative to the Start menu presented at the same time. It only makes sense to do that once you know it inside out. On the other hand, if you can find the console, it's quite intuitive to type "shutdown /?" even if you don't know there's such a command, to see whether you can get some help on it. It worked like a... *cough*... charm. And if shutdown isn't hidden, but in an area that makes a ton of sense, then why did it cause such widespread confusion and condemnation from people testing it? It made so much sense that almost universally, it's been criticized for being hard to shut down. Because the Internet changes quickly and the product has shipped, mostly I'm finding the hundreds of tutorials on shutting it down now, not the forums full of confused people from a month or two ago. It's still a very visible issue for many users though because it's gone from the simplicity of using the button that does every major task, to a process about on par with changing recording input devices. http://www.shutdownwindows8.com/ http://features.techworld.com/howto/operating-systems/3406048/how-shut-down-windows-8/?intcmp=ros-md-acc-p-hwt http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/software/3405667/how-shut-down-windows-8/ http://www.askvg.com/how-to-log-off-restart-and-shut-down-windows-8-pc/ http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-8-Shut-Down-Process-Needs-Some-Streamlining-225173.shtml http://superuser.com/questions/335431/how-do-i-shutdown-restart-windows-8-preview http://superuser.com/questions/491008/how-do-i-shutdown-windows-8 http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/windows8/shutdown-windows-8-140937 http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1099037-sigh-how-do-i-restart-or-shut-down-the-pc-in-windows-8/ http://www.forumswindows8.com/general-discussion/how-shut-down-windows-8-a-5539.htm http://www.forumswindows8.com/general-discussion/how-shutdown-computer-windows-8-a-5292.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I don't know how it compares to other countries but energy prices are high enough that many would forgo heating over winter. And I'd already mentioned phones use hardly any electricity. As for powering up and powering down many would also say leaving it running constantly is just as bad if not worse, the power cycling only applies if you're turning it on for 20 minutes then off while you make a cuppa then back on again n so on. If you're using a mouse a large part of the time then it would be less efficient to then move over to the keyboard to begin typing. Though as has already been covered "you can use keyboard shortcuts" shouldn't really be used as a defence of the cruddy hidden design of Windows 8 since you shouldn't be needing to learn a bunch of keyboard shortcuts to make use of your computer. Keyboard shortcuts should only be there to speed up an existing process, not the defacto method of doing it. As you say, keyboards came before mice. Back when computers used CLI instead of a GUI, and now we have a GUI that is so great that you have to control it like it's CLI. One thing I still don't get is why you've upgraded to Windows 8 if you don't use Windows 8? You're advocating how it's so much like Windows 7 in the way you use it, so why not just use Windows 7? Why upgrade your OS to ignore everything new about it? It's your money for sure, but I don't see any reason to upgrade to Windows 8 if you're going to pretend it's Windows 7 with a weird "start menu". The jump from XP/Vista/7 to Win 8 is much bigger than it was between XP/Vista/7. The general GUI and workflow was largely unchanged with those. Now there's the WinNT side and the WinRT side, the start menu has been completely revamped, methods of interaction too, such as the context menu. Windows 8 is two new operating systems tied in one, and it won't end well. Not understanding Jump Lists, the new Task Bar, pinning stuff however is icing on top of the OS and won't impede your use of the computer if you're unaware of them. Stuff like the Start Menu, Shutdown, Control Panel etc are fundamental things in the use of a computer. And no change is not inherently bad, but change for changes sake can be. Come on, I'm a Final Fantasy fan, would I be if I hated all change? Hooray, a 3 year old can mimic what they've been taught already. My little sister can play Minecraft. And I could probably make a similar video arguing how intuitive minecraft is and have her open the inventory and walk about and stuff. Of course what I won't film is the part where I'm pointing out all the buttons to her, and how to create and destroy things and open the inventory, and even the bit where I'm changing the control scheme (WASD means nothing to children). Spoils the video a bit though. I'm sure it'll be the same with many potential future Windows 8 users, once they've had someone sit down and walk them through how it works then they'll maybe get the hang of things. But if it was as it is, they'd be fine. Everything would be how it has been the past 12+ years. The two-sided OS is going to make giving tech support an awesome task too. Icon on the desktop versus icon on the start screen, I'm not sure what's different apart from one is in cubes. i know for a fact it'll look ugly regardless of where it is if it's an updated icon. A shortcut is a link, a shortcut wouldn't be able to run legacy apps. A seamless VM/emulator however, can. I don't know why you'd say it's not even close to a VM given Windows 7 brought in the ability for XP legacy support this way. Just because it's not loading up inside VirtualBox doesn't mean it's not VM like. It'd certainly allow you to say...close it in a save state like manner and have it then open later as it was.... Anywho here's Steven Sinofsky(Head of Windows) talking about the Desktopp within Windows 8. And if you want to stay permanently immersed in that Metro world, you will never see the desktop—we won’t even load it (literally the code will not be loaded) unless you explicitly choose to go there! This is Windows reimagined.... If you do want or need this functionality, then you can switch to it with ease and fluidity because Windows is right there. Essentially, you can think of the Windows desktop as just another app. And here's a Windows 8 structure thingy from Intel: Where you can quite clearly make out all the guts of the OS, the System Services are within the Metro side of things. "Desktop" gets pretty much enough functions to run programs it has done in the past (minus WPF as mentioned before) and that's it. It's DOS to Win95. It's there, you can run DOS programs, but Windows 8 Style/WinRT is the overriding OS, the old Win32 is just along for the ride. Also you call yourself a power user and then say that the Show Desktop shortcut was removed from Windows 7? Meh, the name "Charms" isn't too bad. At least there hasn't been a year of calling it Charms then suddenly having to change the name to "Windows 8 panel bar", so it could have been worse. WRT charms being in a place that makes sense, Win+every button combo on a keyboard is not intuitive. Rubbing the mouse up n down the side of the screen, an action which is normally for scrolling a page, is not intuitive. And last I remember it was within Charms - Settings - Power- Shutdown. As opposed to Start - Shutdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 @fuchi Because people are retarded. It's because it's a change. Not because it's a bad feature. How did you know any of the shortcuts you know now before you knew them? What a lame argument. Windows has never been easy to use. Grouping all of your settings together makes more sense than anything they've done before and that's what that section of the charms bar does. What is this magical button that did every major task? My copy of Windows 7 seems to be missing it. @dean You can forgo heating if you have a nvidia card. You're right, you shouldn't have to use shortcuts, but Windows 7 sucks without shortcuts too. You keep forgetting that while 7 is better than any other version of windows before it's still not a very good operating system in terms of simplicity and ease of use. You're just used to it. How would you adjust the brightness without a keyboard shortcut on Windows 7? Well in Windows 8 it's right there in the charms bar. What if you wanted to look at your specs? Windows 7: Start. My Computer. Right click. Properties. Windows 8: Windows + C and click on PC info. It's not badly designed. You just don't like change. And yes, the shortcuts do speed up the process, I don't see how they're the way you have to do it and nor did I imply as such. On Windows 7 and Windows 8 keyboard shortcuts are the best way to do anything. -You're ignoring other aspects of Windows 8 such as how much better it looks, the updates to explorer, how it's faster, lighter, and boots faster, and how your settings are saved online, shit like that. I guess it's sort of like going from OSX 10.6 to 10.7 rather than going from OS9 to 10. - "Stuff like the Start Menu, Shutdown, Control Panel etc are fundamental things in the use of a computer." Yeah, and Windows 8 has them. I don't get your point unless you're still stuck on this whole "wahhh I have to learn new things" hitch. -MS includes a tutorial for using Windows 8 with WIndows 8. I don't know why I have to repeat that. Do you want MS to never change? I think this had to come at some point. They needed a modern OS and 7 was not it. Ubuntu and OSX were years ahead. -I can't take anyone seriously thinks the modern UI is ugly. Putting shit into squares makes everything look better. See: Every other modern design from MS and iOS. -If what this MS dude means what you think it means then it's so seamless it's impossible to notice. I never use the modern UI so it feels like it just runs on top of the desktop and not the other way around. -Show dekstop was removed as a shortcut in Windows 7. It's now a tiny little bar on the right side of the taskbar instead of being in the quick launch bar. But keep trying there old man afraid of change. -You don't rub the screen to access charms. You know what's not intuitive? Most of the things Windows 7 does. I don't think you understand what intuitive means. And no, I don't think hot corners are intuitive on any OS (though OSX does handle them better than Windows 8 because there's a better visual cue compared to none on Windows 8.) And yes, that is how you access shutdown. Your point? I was pointing out to fuchi the charms menu isn't just a shutdown menu. You guys seem so stuck on trying to do things the old way that you have no idea what else windows 8 is doing. Which makes sense, I've been using it daily for work, and it doesn't seem like anyone else has had the time to get familiar with the ins and outs of it. It wouldn't be Windows if you could figure it out easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Sure Windows 7 isn't massively straightforward, but doesn't automatically mean Windows 8 is. As we've highlighted it's far from it. You didn't need to adjust brightness in Windows 7. What has changed in Windows 8 that that's now the case, and that it needs to be right there in Charms? Same with looking at your computer specs. I'd rank Shutdown much higher up the "things to have access to" than brightness settings and computer specs. Also you're giving keyboard shortcuts still The look is overall meh, I'm quite a fan of Aero. Sure it's not as Fisher Price as Luna, but it's nothing much to write home about. Ribbon is an okay addition, but it really needs tabs, which are still lacking. Nor does it matter if my settings are saved online, that's only worth something if I'm expecting to own several Windows 8 PC's. Yes I'm on the "waah have to learn new stuff". Shouldn't need to, especially with something as fundamental as shutdown. Android, a completely new OS and way of using phones. Still retains the age-old method of holding down on the power button to shut down the phone. Unity is closer to Windows than Windows 8 is and it's a Linux operating system and much maligned one too. That says a lot about Windows 8. Yes a bit of a boot into 2010s is welcome, but Windows 8 is not the solution, and is largely a case of change for changes sake. Windows 7 isn't broken (They've said as much when they announced no SP2), no need to "fix" it. I didn't say it's ugly, I said there's no difference between having icons on the desktop in a grid and having the same icons on the new start interface in a grid. And both will look ugly if the icon used is still ugly (not all programs have realised Vista onwards takes 256*256 icons.) It's only the Metro Apps that come with the fancy new tiles n live tile stuff, the same apps you don't use. As already said with Eleven, it doesn't matter much how it "feels", it's how it actually is. And that makes a large impact on how we can expect MS to go forward with Windows, because that legacy stuff can so easily be ejected from the OS as it currently stands. If Show Desktop was removed from Windows 7 then I don't know what OS I'm using. Maybe I've accidentally gotten Windows 9. Hitting the button in the bottom corner to access all your programs, control panels, shut down, files etc is unintuitive? I'd say the biggest issue that Windows has, and it's still there in Windows 8, is Task Manager. It's either a right click of the Task Bar, ctrl+shift+esc, or ctrl+alt+del, or searched for via Start/Control Panel. And it's a tool that's certainly further up there in use than brightness settings and computer specs. Especially as it now takes on even greater import in running the new WinRT apps (and is about the only major thing I pine for in Windows 8, but no way is it worth the hassle). It could do with some kind of easy access, even if it's in System Tray. Also you see no issue in the new intuitive way of shutting down the computer bieng Win+C - Settings - Power - Shutdown, as opposed to the old and clunky method of Start - Shutdown? And you're the one that says I don't know the meaning of intuitive. Anywho here's Lifehackers round up of apps for Windows 8 http://lifehacker.com/5955209/the-best-new-apps-in-the-windows-8-store Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 To be fair, going to "start" to "shut down" is counter-intuitive, though it's a lot simpler than the Win8 method. And while I know that brightness was just an example, I'll say that I have no idea how to adjust brightness on Win7, or WinXP, or any previous windows with or without a hotkey, but it's never been an issue before. Shutdown is something I use daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 To be fair, going to "start" to "shut down" is counter-intuitive, though it's a lot simpler than the Win8 method. That's why WinXP was the last time you hit something labelled "Start". As for brightness that's something usually dealt with by your monitor or in the odd game. You can do colour calibration, but that's not really something you'd do more than once/need to do as an average user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchikoma Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) "It's a brilliant design, people are just too dumb to use it" is a lame argument. If you design something to be usable, and most people can't use it, it's not because it's too brilliant for them - it's because it's a bad design. That's why guys like Dieter Rams or Jony Ive are so famous in industrial design. That's one of the reasons the iPad caught on like it did. It boldly dared to give users less flexibility and fewer options than comparable tablets, but because it was simple, it had mass appeal because it was usable to non-geeks. While it holds almost no appeal to me personally, I have to admit, that is a great design for what it is, because... it took an old idea that never took off no matter how it was pushed, and made it a must-have thing. Taking something that has been quick and intuitive for the last 18 years and obscuring it, especially when an analog of its former location remains, is bad design - unless maybe the new design quickly makes the process much more efficient, which it does not. "I know! Why not change sun visors in cars so that you crank them down with a little handle on the door? That would be so innovative..." The "magical button" was called "Start." Seriously? Your copy of Windows 7 uses a Windows logo button if you're all into Aero. Shut down the PC? Start. Open the control panel? Start. Launch a program? Start. Manage printers and devices? Start. Get help on the OS? Start. Access your documents? Start. Search for something? Start. Run something? Start. and so on... So yeah, it's "the button that does every major task." Having not only multiple menus, but multiple paradigms to access the menus, just for the basics, is backwards. It's stupid. It's incongruous. It's kludgy. No amount of being able to use it once you're taught how changes that. You're arguing past anyone who disagrees with you. None of us are saying all change is bad, even if you're saying that's what we're saying. We're saying these particular changes are less efficient, less intuitive, and not for the better. Change is fine - we're on a video game forum - and while the medium slowed down a lot when 3D became easy, change is still the norm. Change is not automatically good either though. It's funny you claim the show desktop shortcut was removed, and in the next sentence you point out where it was moved to. If it's still there, it was not removed. But somehow knowing that makes you an "old man afraid of change." Can't argue with logic like that... just as you can't cross a bridge that wasn't built. FWIW, the Metro tile design looks bad. It looks kind of cool on a Lumia, but on anything bigger, it looks very Fisher-Price. Big, chunky, colourful, simple. Give me a grid of icons over wallpaper instead of that anyday. Colour is nice, but I don't go to dinner in a cobalt blue coat, bright green pants and vermilion shoes - I'd look like a clown. Basically, it's the icon or program list version of one of these: Edited October 27, 2012 by fuchikoma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/the-new-and-updated-games-of-windows-8/ A bunch of the new and updated games of Windows 8. The games aren't bundled into Windows any more, they're just free options to download on the Windows Store (which means they're Metro if you're not wanting that kind of thing. Minesweeper comes with an Adventure mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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