Windows 8

[deanb]

http://www.tomshardw...mance,3331.html

 

Toms Hardware benchmarks for a variety of games. Some games run faster, some run slower, many have no change and Sleeping Dogs doesn't work unless you run it on medium settings (which would imply there's something not working right in DirectX 11.1)

 

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=31878314 - and here's a tool that lets you turn the legacy icons into Live Tiles (as far as I know, not used it myself)

[Eleven]

I could have sworn i ran Sleeping Dogs on Win 8, not medium settings. Well, release preview... I don't remember I haven't touched any game in a month?

 

The second link is probably exactly what I'm looking for! I'm gonna try that out later.

[Eleven]

Preview pics to Dean's post above re: Live Tiles. http://forum.xda-dev...01&postcount=28

 

I don't know yet if they're really live or anything, but this was exactly what I was looking for. A way to replace normal icons.

 

Now of course, nobody can be satisfied. The next thing I want is to stretch an icon into two columns, like the Mail app or Calendar. That way, I can highlight my most used stuff. That would be cooler than awesome!

Edited October 30, 2012 by eleven

[TheMightyEthan]

Why the hell doesn't it do that on its own?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

@Dean

 

Apparently you've forgotten laptops exist, and that Windows 8 will be used on them. That's why the brightness setting is there.

 

Why shouldn't you need to learn new things though? You had to learn the old versions of windows at some point and MS had to update their shit eventually. I don't get your Android example. The power button on Windows 8 does exactly what it does on 7: As in you can set it to do whatever you want.

 

They're not fixing 7, they're adding features. Big difference. Microsoft isn't stupid. They see that people like more simplified operating systems and that most people just use their computer as Facebook/homework machines outside of enterprise. Apple hasn't made huge ground because Windows is great, obviously. So this is Microsoft's attempt to appeal to people who don't play games and if they do it's casually and don't do much with their computers besides browse the Internet. If you don't like it, fuck it, just install a start menu replacement and there go most of your complaints.

 

As for icons, I guess I don't really notice since I don't use the start menu like a barbarian, I type for everything.

 

Your "show desktop" image is gone but you seem to be getting overly pedantic about this and missing the point. You can still create a show desktop icon (can't remember if it's in the quick launch bar by default) like everything else but it is not longer there by default and neither is the quick launch bar. Now it's that sliver on the right side of the taskbar.

 

As for the task manager: It's improved but I think the issue there is that you shouldn't be seeing it at all. Also you're missing the Windows+X shortcut and right clicking the start menu/hot corner. If you're on RT then you won't have to worry about killing apps (much like in Android.)

 

I think putting shutdown in the charms menu is intuitive because it's grouped properly with settings instead of just randomly being there on an unnamed orb. (Looks like Ethan made a similar point.)

 

 

@fuchi

 

The ipad was just a large iPhone. If you think of Windows 8 as a large Windows Phone 7 (just for histories sake) then it's actually easier to understand. It's the desktop side and how the elements collide where it gets funky. I haven't played around with a RT tablet but I would assume that the Modern UI is lovely to use on such a device and wouldn't take much effort to figure out (insert video of 3 year old again.)

 

Also, did you just call Windows quick and intuitive? That made me smile.

 

So besides a shutdown button, what functionality is missing from the modern UI?

 

It's not a shortcut button if it's built into the UI. Is shutdown/restart/etc a shortcut in Windows 7? I guess we're just arguing semantics at that point and everything on computers is a shortcut.

 

As for the look of the modern UI: Obviously, not everyone is going to like it, it's too different. The same can be said of stuff like the Lumia products coming on bunch of colors. Personally, I think the world needs more color, as it's been sorely lacking in design as of late. Colors help you tell things apart easier. Colors are very useful. If the Modern UI didn't have any color it'd be a bitch to figure out what was what.

 

@Ethan

 

Steam doesn't, either. In case you didn't notice he isn't using the original icons for anything in the examples. He replaced them with ones of his choosing. Pretty cool actually. I enjoyed doing that on Steam.

[deanb]

I haven't had extensive use of many laptops but my laptop's(netbook's) brightness settings are controlled by the firmware, and works regardless of the OS included. It's a button on the keyboard itself.

 

Yeah, I already learnt how to use Windows (and by extension KDE too), why should I need to relearn Windows, and why did Windows have to " update their shit eventually", you've made similar sentiments several times now but never expanded beyond them (though you did highlight OSX as a reason why, despite OSX being the fucking same for over ten years now). My Android point is that despite being a new OS, it still uses the old "turn phone off" paradigm as phones of yore, thus requiring zero retraining in that aspect of modern phone use. Despite the fact you'd seemingly want the off settings for a phone where they intuitively belong in the Menu - System Settings - Battery- Power Off and Restart.

 

Or fuck it continue using Windows 7 and not have to install anything. Windows 8 doesn't do anything to make Facebook any easier to use. And I also don't see the point in making an OS that doesn't appeal to enterprise or gamers either. Enterprise is huge business for Microsoft, and gaming is a big edge that MS currently still retain over other OSes.

 

My "Show Desktop" image is still there for me, and I'm guessing it worked for others too. But here it is again.

 

It'd be nice to not use Task Manager, but that's not really the reality of the world we live in. Programs hang, apps hog up all the resources, and so on.

 

Ethan made the point of the irony that the Orb used to be called "Start" and you use that to "end" your PC. Something Microsoft fixed 7 years ago. He still points out "it's a lot simpler than the Win8 method.". Fuchi expanded even further on this point with the fact the "unnamed orb" houses everything. The Start Screen that replaces it, doesn't.

 

Saying Windows 8 is to Windows Phones as iPad is to iPhones doesn't win many points Especially when people would prefer if the comparison that could be made was to Windows itself.

Colour would be useful if it wasn't using all the colours of the rainbow for no reason at all.

 

Let's see shall we. Weather today is cold, something is wrong with my photo collection(too much of my RDA?), my calendar, mail and stock apps are still running, internet explorer is also cold today as well as the store, and I have only Purple Rain in my music collection.

The colours of Windows 8 tiles mean diddly squat and serve only to distract rather than inform.

[TheMightyEthan]

@FDS re tiles: I know Steam doesn't do that either, but it should. At least make it an option to have it take the icon images and automatically turn them into tiles. It's stupid that you have to get a third-party program to do that. Obviously this is a minor complaint.

[fuchikoma]

The ipad was just a large iPhone. If you think of Windows 8 as a large Windows Phone 7 (just for histories sake) then it's actually easier to understand.

Yes, I think that is well understood about it, but that is problematic. You see, iOS runs on iPhones. iOS runs on iPads. OSX runs on desktops and servers. The information density on the Metro tile system is far too low for these platforms and rather than being "easier," it is simply cumbersome. Like Bob,, Sugar,, or At Ease. My desktop (or even laptop) is not a smartphone. It's not a tablet. It's not even an appliance. It's a multipurpose data management system, and I prefer an interface that is more optimal for sitting at the screen and clicking on items instead of sitting across the room on a couch or thumbing through a list on a phone. You must have seen Programs menus that take up 2-3 columns of text or more, right? I would much rather that not equate to 10 screens of mostly empty boxes and background processes I do not need running, fetching data and updating displays to tell me the news and weather in my program list.

 

Also, did you just call Windows quick and intuitive? That made me smile.

Careful you don't get so smug you lose your perspective. I used to jump on the anti-MS bandwagon... until I tried alternatives. OS/2, BeOS (actually quite good), Finder (MacOS), Workbench, GEM, QNX, a range of RedHat and Mandrake Linux, DragonLinux, PhatLinux, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Mint and others... so yeah, comparing to other OSes, Windows 7 is damn intuitive, unless you hold it up to iOS or PalmOS, neither of which are really comparable in functionality or use. Also, in the world we're in, it's not that usual to see someone who is about to start using Windows 8, but hasn't used any other versions of Windows since Win95. So while it's a little unfair to consider experience in intuition, for something like this, it's like driving a car. To a driver, it's intuitive for the pedals to be laid out as clutch, brake, gas - not clutch, brake, with a throttle lever on the wheel, even though some people could learn it quickly with no prior experience. Or more realistically, an auto shifter that goes "PRNDL" as opposed to "DNRL" with "park" on a button on the dash - totally workable, but a needless reinvention for the sake of change. Did you just say putting shutdown in the charms menu was intuitive? Even after I posted pages and pages of apparently much-needed tutorials for finding it, along with people who couldn't find it? It's infamous at this point. Look, you should know I take things issue by issue, and there are a bunch of things in Win8 we should all get... but to stand up for the shutdown change is really defending the indefensible.

 

So besides a shutdown button, what functionality is missing from the modern UI?

A "list" view for one. Something to take the humongous tiles down to small one-line text descriptions with small icons.

 

It's not a shortcut button if it's built into the UI. Is shutdown/restart/etc a shortcut in Windows 7? I guess we're just arguing semantics at that point and everything on computers is a shortcut.

Then it was never a shortcut to begin with. You are just arguing semantics at this point, but the matter being discussed is whether it was removed from the UI. It was not. It was changed from an icon on the left, to a box on the right, and it does the exact same thing as before.

 

As for the look of the modern UI: Obviously, not everyone is going to like it, it's too different. The same can be said of stuff like the Lumia products coming on bunch of colors. Personally, I think the world needs more color, as it's been sorely lacking in design as of late. Colors help you tell things apart easier. Colors are very useful. If the Modern UI didn't have any color it'd be a bitch to figure out what was what.

That's not really something that's been borne out by my experience. It wasn't a bitch to figure out what was what in Win9x/XP/Vista/7. For one thing, alphabetical order makes it very predictable, though I can only imagine what would happen if you auto-sorted 8 pages of variously-sized tiles alphabetically after the fact. Even in DOS (MS, PC, DR) it's very clear what is what, and the only colours are grey and black.

 

Using colour in design can be useful, but it's how they've done it that is an issue. It looks like they're just doing it to draw attention to their cobbled-together tile design, which IMO, is a mistake. If anything they should try to make it look less chaotic, but maybe they tried that and failed, so they decided to go the opposite way and make it look deliberate? Colours in game design are a good thing, especially when you want to convey something playful and vibrant. Using them haphazardly in a UI though is like writing a manual in Comic Sans MS. Flamboyant colours are also very good at making sure a design is not timeless. Just look at some 70s stuff with the orange, brown, white, darker greens, etc. To me, what they've done here makes it already look dated, since it feels like the colour schemes they were pushing with WinXP. It's a trip back to 2000. As Dean pointed out, they also reuse colours that are used arbitrarily to begin with, so if anything it would slow you down looking for "the blue one" instead of looking for a full colour icon of something (though at least some users are working on bringing icons/pictures to the tiles.) Colours were useful for distinguishing icons, but now icons are white. Yay, colour.

 

I'm afraid the big issue is not that they have changed things, like you keep implying, but what they've changed and how. Too much feels like they've just reinvented the wheel to claim some originality, and left us driving on hexagons. But... Windows seems to alternate between creative and sensible versions. This is the Vista, ME, 98 first edition variant, and I'm sure Windows 9 will carry many Windows 8 improvements along with a more broadly palatable interface based on user feedback and sales numbers.

[deanb]

@FDS re tiles: I know Steam doesn't do that either, but it should. At least make it an option to have it take the icon images and automatically turn them into tiles. It's stupid that you have to get a third-party program to do that. Obviously this is a minor complaint.

Yeah while it took longer than preferable, Steam at least lets you set the tiles without having to go and get some third party tool.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

@Dean

 

Most laptops I've used besides Macbooks have it as a "fn" function. This builds it in (and it will work the same on tablets.) A nice bit of OS unity there.

 

Android comparison: Now you're trying to compare a software feature vs. a hardware one. Make up your mind.

 

Facebook: Once again missing the point. The modern UI is simpler, comparable to what we've seen previously on tablets, and thus it's easier for your grandma to use it. (For the millionth time, that video of the 3 year old.) It'll be even easier when a FB app comes out. Also, you don't see the point in appealing to most of the world? Wut. Though I agree, enterprise and business are big for MS compared to the competition, but that still doesn't mean that's where the money lies. The money lies in getting joe schmo off the street to care.

 

Show desktop: What is that, the quick launch bar? I already talked about that. Why would you need that and the one on the right?

 

Start menu having a shutdown feature: Sure, it's simpler, but it still never really made sense where it was before and it's clear they're stressing that you shouldn't have to shutdown your device.

 

How do colors inform on any other platform? I don't see how that's relevant. I was pointing out colors help differentiate. And the colors do make sense for some of the tiles: Xbox is green, IE and Skydrive are blue. Icons function the same way.

 

@Fuchi

 

You seem to think that I'm saying that the modern UI is more preferable. I was actually talking about just understanding it. If you can understand it on a smaller form factor you can understand how it works on a larger form factor. Do you think I actually use the modern UI though? It's just an application launcher for me. I stick to the desktop. I've said this a million times already.

 

You can't seem to make an objective statement on intuitiveness. You seem to think doing something intuively is just doing it the way it was before. It makes a hell of a lot of sense to put a power menu in a settings menu with other things that deal with your hardware (volume and brightness come to mind) rather than just throwing it in with all of your applications. It's not an application.

 

I'm not sure if list vs. tile is much of an argument for functionality. Functionally, it works the same, it's just laid out differently. Sort of like vertical scrolling vs. horizontal scrolling being changed from Android 2.3 to 4.0.

 

Windows 8 has an "all apps" button you can press to view things alphabetically and nicely organized as if they were in folders. People have no issues navigating the same ways in iOS and Android.

 

You look for the icon and the color. I don't really see what's so confusing about that. It works fine on Windows Phone as it is. "Where's my Xbox app?" Oh gee, maybe it's the green one with the X? On the flipside, are you saying that Aero and every Windows design before it doesn't look dated? No design lasts. Even iOS looks dated now when people thought that shit would be great forever. Well, it certainly lasted longer than any version of Android. Windows Phone 8 still looks fresh. So it does have something going there.

 

So what should they have done instead to market to average people? Release RT on laptops and completely separate desktop users from casual users? That would have been an even more dramatic change than the full screen start menu and create even more customer confusion and piss off even more people like Gabe Newell. I'm actually really curious as to what SP1 will be like in terms of refining the experience as they've kept refining it in the past year.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think the tiles and such absolutely make sense on a touch screen device. It's on a kb/m device that they don't make sense (laptops included). Really my only issue with the Metro interface is that there's no option to replace it with a more classic "start menu" type setup if you're not on a touch screen device.

 

The reason the list view is nice is because it's a lot more convenient to go through 2-3 pages of a list view than 20-30 of tiles.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Basically what Ethan said. I couldn't care less what works on a tablet or other touch screen device.

[deanb]

With regards to brightness it doesn't really matter if it's in the Charms menu since as we've already established at this point most folks use the hardware keys. Apart from it seems on Macs, which means Windows have managed to make an OS feature for Macbooks. *Clap clap*

 

I'm using it as an example of how you can make a new OS (if you could call old phone software an "OS") and still retain the same workflow for basic things. Like turning off a computer or phone.

 

Simplistic doesn't make it simpler. Most granny computer training courses are also built on the same Windows of the last 12 years. The new interface takes all the elements of computer use they've been taught and throws it out the window. The 3 year old who had been shown how to use the computer already? If daddy has sat him down and even talked him through the names of all the new elements then no wonder he knows how where those bits are. Come one, it has been dismissed already.

No their money lies in enterprise. How many hundreds of computers, OSes and software packages do you buy? Joe schmo on the street doesn't have anywhere near the purchasing clout of a company with hundreds if not thousands of employers.

 

Yes that's the Show Desktop that you were repeatedly adamant " Show dekstop was removed as a shortcut in Windows 7." Soo..hmmm.

 

No it made perfect sense where it was before. That's why it's in pretty much the same place on every desktop OS except Windows 8.

 

How you can continue to justify Windows 8 changes to putting it within Charms - Settings - Power is insanity at this point, nevermind saying it is any more intuitive.

 

Colours tends to be used in a variety of ways, reds as warnings, greens as okays, and so on. I'm not your school teacher so I shouldn't really be needing to tell you how colour works. No other OS has plastered itself with such a garish range of colours before, or tried to say that "Colors help you tell things apart easier. Colors are very useful.". As demonstrated: no they're not. The only use they have, as Fuchi has highlighted, is as a fix to the fact most of the icons are now just solid white symbols in solid colour squares. So it just fixes something that is only broken because of change for the sake of change. Form over function.

 

A list holds a lot more in the same space, especially as Microsoft have seen fit to put a hard cap on how many tiles a screen can show regardless of how large your monitor may be. Hence the increased functionality, especially if unlike yourself, you don't know of every program installed on your PC.

 

And yes a proper Windows for Tablets would have been fine, Windows RT is already locked off from the X86 side of things as is. People are used to their iPad not running the same stuff as their Macbook, why would Windows be any different? Then just have Windows 8 as the natural progression on the desktop side of things. No frankenOS, no need to make website that tell you how to do simple things like shut down a computer, no need to split components of the OS all over the place. Just a proper, usable, functional upgrade and successor to Windows 7

[MasterDex]

Start menu having a shutdown feature: Sure, it's simpler, but it still never really made sense where it was before and it's clear they're stressing that you shouldn't have to shutdown your device.

 

Dean responded pretty well to the rest of your message so I'm just going to pick out this bit. Saying it's clear that they're stressing that you shouldn't have to shutdown your device sounds like an excuse for bad implementation. You shouldn't have to shutdown your device? Why? Because we live in a Utopia where electricity is free, heat and dust aren't an issue and power surges and outages are some urban legend? No, we live in the real world where electricity is a commodity sold to us which we need to pay for by the kilowatt, where leaving a system turned on constantly without building a clean-room with sufficient cooling is a recipe for hardware failure and where power surges and outages are very real every-day risks and practically guaranteed in certain areas of the world.

 

Also, the position of the shutdown feature made total sense and could be explained in two sentences to anyone new to computers. "This thing in the corner is the start button where you can find whatever you want to do quickly and easily. You can shutdown your system from this menu.".

 

What it appears happened with the shutdown placement in Windows 8 is that the development team was told to reinvent the wheel, were told to do this, this and this and get rid of this, this and this before going "Shit, we better find a place for all this stuff we had in that handy menu from before."

[Eleven]

RE: Colors.

 

IMO, the icon colors have their purpose. I'm not stating this is a fact because I don't know if Microsoft intended it. Just like in iOS, the icon colors have purpose (green - phone, messages. blue - mail, safari). What their exact purpose are, at this point, is unknown.

 

Also, I disagree with the opinions on colors so far. I think it's very nice design wise for Windows 8 to use those colors. It looks really good (IMO) when used with Metro-style interfaces. Like these:

 

Powerpoint - https://skydrive.liv...E85F1AB56A!1284

Webpage - http://www.creepyed....olors-hex-code/

 

Not to mention Microsoft's own site.

 

Edit: Also ebay's app:

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/26/3188082/ebay-windows-8-app-released-windows-store

Edited October 31, 2012 by eleven

[deanb]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Metro style/window 8 look/whatever it is now. I use Outlook.com over Hotmail for example. The issue taken to task is FDS's assertion that in Windows 8: "Colors help you tell things apart easier. Colors are very useful.". When they're not. It's just a smattering of random colours for the sake of making pretty marketing screenshots.

[madbassman39]

I think moving the power button to a new "Charms" bar makes no sense. So you had to go to the start menu to turn off your computer, but as much as that was silly, its been the norm for a very long time. If you struggled with that, then you have never used a computer in your life. Mac OS has the same system as windows, except they had it under the apple button on the top left. What Windows did in Vista and 7 was eliminate the "start" part and just made it a Windows button, the placement was the same and hadn't changed and became habit.

 

Now we are expected to stop thinking like I have been thinking for almost 20 years, and do something different, because semantics. Thats just dumb. Its dumb and it makes no sense to move it after this long. We have to not only know that there is this pop out menu that never existed before, and turn off our computer, because of the name.

 

People will adjust, but it doesn't make it less dumb

[fuchikoma]

@FDS

 

I think the problem most of us have with the UI isn't failure to understand, but disagreement about its usability on a "full fledged" computer. The "start" menu could be made to display a huge list of things at once, and its successor still managed a pretty quick, compact, continuous list, but the current replacement is massively overbloated size-wise, making it feel quite crude by comparison. Sure, you scroll or swipe through it and tap an icon to launch - we get that.

 

List vs tile is a huge difference, especially if you have RSIs and actually use the menus. It's like the difference between going to the store down the street and the one across town.

 

Something that is intuitive, if you don't know what you're doing, and you try what should work, does work. I had to qualify it a bit because certain processes become common knowledge after more than a decade, like driving, WASD, the start menu, turning volume and channels up and down on a TV, etc - there is some training up front, but it's expected that most anyone would know how they work. Win8 may reach that point by 2023, but it cannot claim it yet when it's a new change that has hundreds to thousands of (or more?) people searching the Internet to find out how to shut their computers down.

 

I'd say a typical Windows interface looks dated in the same way a pen does. The design is so understated that it doesn't really have much to stick it to a particular time. That's probably why Win95 still looks a fair bit like 3.1, Win7 still looks a lot like 95, and MacOS, OSX, OS/2, Gnome, KDE, Workbench, GEM all look pretty similar - spaced icons with text, in grids, in folders, with widgets to close or modify folder windows. If you break down the distinction between folders and screens, you can throw PalmOS, iOS, and Android into the same mix. Certainly, it's an OLD design, but so are books. Do books need to be reinvented because they're dated? Maybe they should all open from the top, or be entirely gatefold, because this is 2012, dammit! When I crack a book I can't shake that feeling of "My word! I'm back in 700 CE perusing manuscripts!" But more seriously, it's the garishness that dates it. It's like how if your house has white interior walls, it doesn't make it look old-fashioned, but if it has tacky old wallpaper it looks quite dated.

 

Speaking of wallpaper, I don't know if you've noticed, but almost anyone likes to customize their interface. The most PC-phobic users I worked with still had custom wallpaper of their kids, their motorbike, funny pics they got in email, etc. It's used on most iOS devices, and probably most Androids (the ones I've seen at least.) Imagine how well that will work with tiles covering 90% of the screen. Or how good most wallpaper will work with bright primary colours pasted all over it. It's an interface for marketing screenshots, not users. Once again, it'd be great if it were changed for the better, but it appears to be changed for changing.

 

What should they have done to market to average people? Why not do what's made them so much money up until now? Release another OS with improvements under the hood, and the interface people expect. Make Metro an app - like, really an app, something you have to turn on or launch from the desktop, like the Win98 Active Channel Bar. What we have now is just a channel bar (figuratively) that you cannot turn off, disingenuously poised to herd people toward Microsoft's app store so they can start collecting big royalties like Apple has done. Can't blame them for trying, but also can't really appreciate it as a user.

 

[edit: "common knowledge" is more accurate than "cultural institution."]

Edited October 31, 2012 by fuchikoma

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

@Dean

I don't get why you'd be against having a software function for something that you've never been able to control via software before. Would you have the same attitude if we didn't have physical volume buttons all of these years and then MS added one to the OS?

 

Power- On Android you have to physically press the power button. On Windows 8 it functions the same as Windows 7. The software way to get to it (which I can't even think of a way to do on Android besides via command prompt) isn't comparable. It doesn't make sense where it is in Win7, it's just a matter of wanting it being easy to access. Like I said, "sense" wise it's grouped with applications when it's not an application. I honestly don't see what's "insanity" about having a settings menu with a bunch of common features you'd want to change settings on.

 

Enterprise vs. consumers- Apple seems to be doing quite well without having the enterprise market.

 

Cramming more into the same space isn't always better. You could argue that live tiles are the opposite of that though: So uncluttered that they're harder to use. Windows Phone 8 readjusted that vs. Windows Phone 7. Maybe we'll see another tile size in SP1.

 

So what about tablets running x86 like the Surface Pro? That's also an issue: We have devices powerful as desktops that aren't desktops. You're also once again completely ignoring laptops. For like the 8th time: Ultrabooks will be shipping with touch screens. There's also all-in-ones to consider. If anything I almost feel like us desktop consumers are in the minority these days. Everyone who isn't using a desktop computer for gaming and work... well they don't seem to exist. They've bought laptops or tablets instead.

 

@MasterDex. You can explain the new position easily. "This menu brings up your settings." I don't know what the hell you guys are doing where you can't do two extra clicks. Or why you're not use sleep/hibernate modes that work automatically.

 

@madbassman. The charms menu looks like a generic "settings" icon that you see in lots of different things. Not just a name.

 

@fuchi. I don't think any definition of intuitive should involve what you're used to but that's exactly what you just described. I completely agree that we're all used to doing things certain ways. Even the differences between various Linux distros/UIs, OSX, and Windows versions confuses the shit out of most people.

 

Also books have been reinvented a bit. =D A good ebook has integrated audio and video and other such shit that makes the experience pretty nice.

 

If you want wallpapers... uhh... put them on the desktop? Unless you have a theory that this is the reason Windows Phone 7 hasn't done well or something because this isn't new to Windows 8. I've never heard anyone say "I didn't buy a Windows Phone because I couldn't put some shitty picture as my background!"

 

The problem is that they're losing ground to Apple and tablets. That's where average people are going. Average people also like the simplicity of installing apps that smartphones have brought with them. (My Mom actually discovers apps on her phone... I'd be scared shitless if she started doing the same on her computer.) People like us are not average. You should also try something in Windows 8 and get something that lets you launch directly to your desktop. Metro already feels like an app to me and I've pointed that out to people.

 

Dean offers splitting Metro into just the RT version (then I brought up why not let x86 tablets and touchscreen laptops miss out on desktop apps) and you (fuchi) brought up not even using it at all...

I don't really have a good alternative either. You have to think that MS hired a bunch of people who thought about this same issue. I don't think they've done it right just yet but it is a step towards trying to remain relevant for as many number of people as possible while still keeping the ones they have now.

[MasterDex]

Power- On Android you have to physically press the power button. On Windows 8 it functions the same as Windows 7. The software way to get to it (which I can't even think of a way to do on Android besides via command prompt) isn't comparable. It doesn't make sense where it is in Win7, it's just a matter of wanting it being easy to access. Like I said, "sense" wise it's grouped with applications when it's not an application. I honestly don't see what's "insanity" about having a settings menu with a bunch of common features you'd want to change settings on.

 

Technically, Shutdown is an application - shockingly titled shutdown.exe - It also has its own GUI and can be accessed for greater control from the command line. So yeah, even when that little button on the taskbar said Start, it made sense. When you click on shutdown, you are starting the shutdown application (shutdown.exe), the same is true for logging off (logoff.exe) and restart is controlled by the shutdown.exe application. Shutdown isn't a setting. Settings are things like colour count, resolution, UAC level, etc. Shutting down, like restarting and logging-off, are tasks.

 

If you'd like to check this out for yourself, shutdown.exe can be found in C:\Windows\System32. If you type shutdown /? into the command line, you'll see the available options for it and if you type shutdown.exe -i, you'll bring up the GUI for the application.

 

Enterprise vs. consumers- Apple seems to be doing quite well without having the enterprise market.

 

Do I really need to answer this or did you just put no thought into that response? Ask yourself a couple of questions - Why are Apple doing quite well without having the enterprise market? Why couldn't Microsoft do as well without the enterprise market? Hint: The answer to the second question lies in the answer to the first.

 

Cramming more into the same space isn't always better. You could argue that live tiles are the opposite of that though: So uncluttered that they're harder to use. Windows Phone 8 readjusted that vs. Windows Phone 7. Maybe we'll see another tile size in SP1.

 

Metro - forced to have clutter. Traditional Desktop - Right-click > View > Uncheck 'Show Desktop Icons' > No clutter.

 

So what about tablets running x86 like the Surface Pro? That's also an issue: We have devices powerful as desktops that aren't desktops. You're also once again completely ignoring laptops. For like the 8th time: Ultrabooks will be shipping with touch screens. There's also all-in-ones to consider. If anything I almost feel like us desktop consumers are in the minority these days. Everyone who isn't using a desktop computer for gaming and work... well they don't seem to exist. They've bought laptops or tablets instead.

 

How many of us have a laptop with a touchscreen? They're too new and expensive and pointless to buy right now when we have cheaper, traditional alternatives. I think we all agree that as far as touchscreens go, Windows 8 will be fine, if not just serviceable. For traditional laptops however, it's going to be as irritating as with a traditional desktop. Hell, touchpads are already finicky enough without expecting users to learn the lumbago with their fingers.

 

@MasterDex. You can explain the new position easily. "This menu brings up your settings." I don't know what the hell you guys are doing where you can't do two extra clicks. Or why you're not use sleep/hibernate modes that work automatically.

 

I think you mean that you can explain it easily by saying "mouse over the bottom right or top right corners of your screen, and then move the mouse towards the icons on the right side of your screen. The charms menu will appear. Click the Settings charm when the charms bar appears. Click the power button at the bottom of the Settings pane and select Shut down to shut down." That's a big difference to "Click the start/windows icon to open a menu. Click the shutdown button"

Edited November 1, 2012 by MasterDex

[fuchikoma]

I think intuition in products will almost always have to include some acceptance that most users will have prior knowledge though. Is it intuitive to use a faucet? Pretty much anyone in the world knows how to use one, but they were almost certainly taught how they worked since you don't normally run around and try to twist plumbing fixtures. So maybe nothing's intuitive, and the best you can design for is ease of use?

 

Books have improved, of course, but at least personally (even as a newspaper hater...) I don't feel the spine-bound design of books is old fashioned when I use it. I feel another analogy coming on... The change from Start to Metro is sort of like if when ebook readers came out, they became the only way to buy a book, and only displayed 40 point text in 3 inch columns, when print books had supported a range of formatting options all along.

 

WinRT doesn't support the desktop as I understand it? And I wouldn't put the fate of the platform on it, but I would say the value of the platform is probably diminished by lacking wallpaper. To many I'd imagine it's like buying a modern phone and not being able to set custom ringtones.

 

I think what you've said about the tablet market and MS' ambitions are right on. And despite my opposition to this interface on the desktop, I don't mean that it's all bad - just inappropriate. I expect this tablet and phone push will not dominate, but be reasonably successful for them, and end up pushing more people into their development environment making Windows Runtime apps. I actually suspect that's one reason they're pushing so hard to make seemingly everything they make Metro styled. The bigger they can make this thing, the more MS-trained developers there will be, in turn strengthening any or all of their platforms. Of course, you could say that for any platform, but I think the thing is, they're making three(?) look like one big one and even if development isn't identical between them, they all get more people using MS' dev tools. Devs may feel more confident in the platforms with the appearance of Metro holding them all together. I think it's actually a pretty smart way to leverage their brands to buoy up a more fledgling platform like the RT/app store model. (Though that quick restore mode that wipes non-Metro apps suggests a dark future for general purpose computing on Windows...)

Edited November 1, 2012 by fuchikoma

[Eleven]

(Though that quick restore mode that wipes non-Metro apps suggests a dark future for general purpose computing on Windows...)

 

I'm curious why you think that. Care to explain? I think this is one of the best new features of Windows 8. You easily collect a lot of junk on your system, even if you are careful. The fact that it doesn't (based on your post, I had no idea it worked this way) wipe your Metro apps have something to do with how Metro apps work and installed (in a sandbox and all). But why would it suggest a dark future? It might also be good for non-professional tech support, like when your friend messes his up, just tell him to backup his documents and whatever and restore.

 

EDIT: I looked it up and there are two modes for this - one keeps settings and metro apps, the other wipes all clean.

Edited November 1, 2012 by eleven

[Eleven]

Lenovo has released (and I'm sure you guys are aware of them) some Windows 8 laptops. The IdeaPad Yoga, which is aimed more at consumers, and the Thinkpad Twist, which accommodates business users as well.

 

Yoga:

Twist:

 

I know you guys are arguing about what the purpose of the new interface is, how intuitive or non-intuitive it is, and for a whole page now, where the shutdown button should be. I don't really want to step in the middle of that, but I just want to say a few things.

 

If you watch the Yoga video, Kevin (I think his name was, the guy on the left) says something at around the 5:15, that some people are happy with only a phone, some with only a PC, some with only a tablet. Based on what I'm reading, you guys seem to be ignoring that Windows 8 is not just for PCs, it's made to be an OS that handles both tablets and PC form factors.

 

In my opinion, the interface changes, as well as Metro/Desktop combination on laptops are not that big of a deal, once you realize that with this new OS, you could have devices that are both tablets and PCs at the same time. These Lenovo devices might not be the best in the market, but they sure are a good step in the right direction of having a laptop/tablet converged device. I, for one, am willing to accept learning new things, giving up a few conveniences if that means at one point, I could just have 1 device I could bring anywhere and just do whatever a laptop or tablet can do. I can bring it with me to work, and work in laptop mode, I can switch to tablet mode while commuting home, or relaxing on the couch, or waiting for a plane/train.

 

Granted, if you are just going to use this thing on a desktop, I can see why you won't be able to appreciate it at all. But if you're going to use it on a laptop, make sure you have one that doesn't limit itself to work only in laptop mode. Get one of the devices like you see above.

 

I'm pretty sure if you show ordinary people what they can do now with these new devices, they won't mind that the shutdown button, or things they were already used to, were moved in favor of a consistent experience across devices or across a device' different modes. Besides, are we really arguing that the shutdown button is now a mouse gesture and a click away, when you only need to do this once a day?

 

This for me is the beauty of Windows 8.

Edited November 1, 2012 by eleven

[TheMightyEthan]

If you watch the Yoga video, Kevin (I think his name was, the guy on the left) says something at around the 5:15, that some people are happy with only a phone, some with only a PC, some with only a tablet. Based on what I'm reading, you guys seem to be ignoring that Windows 8 is not just for PCs, it's made to be an OS that handles both tablets and PC form factors.

 

Everyone has granted numerous times that the Metro interface probably works very very nicely on touchscreen devices, what people are saying is that it's stupid to force that interface onto people with non-touchscreen devices. Microsoft compromised the desktop/laptop functionality by catering to tablets/hybrid laptops. You say not to limit yourself to a non-hybrid laptop, but a laptop isn't the kind of thing that people replace every year, and many people and business already have laptops that are not hybrids.

 

Also, this isn't directed at anyone specific, but I feel it needs to be said:

 

[Eleven]

I looked at my post and I think I removed the part where I acknowledged that (good for tablets). However the discussion is focused completely on desktops and I just disagree that it should be that way (though I did say that if you're a desktop user that you might not appreciate it at all). In any case, some things on the desktop are moved around/changed to cater to both, but I wouldn't say compromised, I disagree that (except for the All Apps section that I think is a mess) these changes compromise the desktop user. They're just different. That's all I have to say about that because I don't really want to get into this discussion. That is just my opinion on Windows 8 (and I guess Microsoft's direction) as a whole.

 

Regarding your comment about people already having laptops, that is no excuse not to introduce change, as people will already have laptops no matter what season they introduce the new Windows. What I was trying to say is if you get a new one, don't limit yourself, as you won't be able to appreciate Windows 8's potential on a portable device.