Windows 8

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm not saying they shouldn't introduce changes, what I'm saying is they shouldn't force those changes on users who do not have the interface to use them properly. They could have kept the old-style start menu for people who want it, and also used Metro for those who have a device that it is suited for. Hell, even default to Metro and make me go into a menu to change it, but don't force an interface designed for touchscreens onto non touchscreen devices. That's what I meant when I said the desktop use was compromised.

[Eleven]

Since you don't have a long-ass post I'm going to bother to respond

 

I see what you're saying. For Metro apps, I agree that it would not be as good as an experience on desktop, or on laptop mode of hybrid systems, when using a keyboard and a mouse. However, I find that the Start page and charms are welcome and still as usable on desktops. In fact, I prefer the start page to the start menu, because it now becomes a one stop launcher (pinned icons) of all applications I could think of, because it has space for it. That's why I don't think the desktop use is compromised at all. The only metro app you need to deal with on Desktop mode is the Start page.

 

However, it will be if you force yourself to use a Metro app when you could easily use a desktop app for the same purpose. Chrome for Metro vs Desktop, for example. Or even Mail.

[fuchikoma]

(Though that quick restore mode that wipes non-Metro apps suggests a dark future for general purpose computing on Windows...)

 

I'm curious why you think that. Care to explain? I think this is one of the best new features of Windows 8. You easily collect a lot of junk on your system, even if you are careful. The fact that it doesn't (based on your post, I had no idea it worked this way) wipe your Metro apps have something to do with how Metro apps work and installed (in a sandbox and all). But why would it suggest a dark future? It might also be good for non-professional tech support, like when your friend messes his up, just tell him to backup his documents and whatever and restore.

 

EDIT: I looked it up and there are two modes for this - one keeps settings and metro apps, the other wipes all clean.

 

Do you remember when Windows started pointing out that some drivers weren't officially certified? Then either in Vista or Win7 64-bit, people started having to employ workarounds and special measures to run uncertified drivers?

 

What I see happening is the ghettoization of traditional Windows applications in favour of Metro apps. While more savvy users can easily manage both kinds, less experienced ones, who make up a clear majority, will just know that Metro apps are safer because MS has checked them out, and that they're more convenient because they don't have to reinstall them when they do a Refresh. So as long as Metro apps can meet their needs, the other ones will become obsolete because they're just seen as a risk and a pain in the ass. ...which will mean that most of the time, people will get their software through Microsoft's walled garden.

 

MS will reap ridiculous profits (20-30% of all sales), but more importantly, what if you want to run something a little unconventional, like a port scanner, a wi-fi discovery tool, an unofficial firmware flasher for a device, etc. and find out that they are banned as "hacking tools?" (Maybe you could get some network diagnostics in a $300-5000 admin tools package from an approved vendor.) In this generation, you could just switch to the desktop and run them, if you're not on WinRT, but what about one or two generations down the road? It seems they're already technically poised to cut Win32 loose and move entirely to Metro, so once the opposition to that gets small enough, they could seize full control of what we're allowed to run on PCs. So switch to Linux? Sure, if you can find a PC at that point that doesn't use UEFI that only allows for installation of Windows. If this is allowed to go far enough, alternative OS users will pretty much have to make their own kind of PC to run on and then compete with the biggest player in the game to stay profitable. Provisions of TPM may even make it non-viable to hack your OS to allow you the freedom to install what you like again.

 

Also, when the Windows App Store gets really busy, I wonder if we'll see the same complaints we've seen on XBox Live about slow, expensive certification keeping patches out of the hands of users. Maybe a developer can't afford to certify an update and decided it's nonessential. Or it takes a few more weeks than it would if you just downloaded it off their website.

Edited November 1, 2012 by fuchikoma

[Eleven]

I see. However I think you're over analyzing this, it's just a feature to refresh and reinstall windows, and a very welcome one at that. As I said, there are two modes, reset and refresh. The reason metro apps are kept is because of how they install and work. Desktop apps put all kinds of files all over the place it just can't be done.

 

It would be suicide to kill desktop. There's so much you can do on Desktop mode, that even Microsoft should see it. Macs, their primary competitors, would retain the "windowed" approach and linux is getting popular. No matter how good they think Metro is, I just don't see them killing desktop.

 

But then again, there were issues about dev tools few months back, about visual studio i think not being able to make win32 apps without a license or something like that, only metro apps.

[fuchikoma]

Oh, there are definitely technical reasons they can leave Metro apps intact, but this is a case of a lot of tightly related things that are each a bit unsettling, but innocuous enough on their own, coming together at roughly the same time. I want it to sound crazy, and 5 years ago it kind of was, but I keep seeing things that support it.

 

Get rid of desktop mode? Why not? A bunch of office workers I supported switched from computers to iPads because they did what was needed. WinRT uses the excuse of architecture (Arm) to lock down development only to what MS has directly approved. That kind of thing used to be unheard of - for instance, PalmOS, where you were allowed to do anything to anything if you liked.

 

It would be suicide to kill desktop now, but already they're offering a version of Windows that can't support it. Will it be a requirement for users in Win9? Win10? They're laying the groundwork to migrate people away from it and pushing it hard. There was a time when it would be suicide to remove DOS support too, but now we just have a command shell, which is different, and in the last few generations, NTVDM was removed from Windows. It's all a matter of timing, delivery, and how they accommodate the need for what they removed. I see a future where desktops are a lot more like iPads and even then I'm kind of amazed it's progressed this far today.

[Eleven]

It's going to take a massive effort to move everyone on every field of work to move away from the desktop. It doesn't even seem like Metro would allow multiple windows of the same program, like Microsoft Word, to open and switch between. Before they kill the desktop, they would have to make sure Metro supports these use cases, otherwise we would be forced to switch to another OS.

 

However, linux would never move to a metro-like interface. Macs probably won't either. DOS became obsolete because we have a better interface, and everyone agreed it was a better interface. I doubt that would be the case for Metro, seeing as the apps only seem to be good at content consumption, and not real work. With the state of Metro now, even if we get a lot of apps for Metro, the way the interface works just isn't enough for real work to occur. Maybe it's good for the people you work to just use iPads. But what about programming? Video editing work? Those would be a pain in the current state of Metro.

[deanb]

@FDS: I'm not against it, just saying it's not much of a "ooh look at what great improvements Windows 8 brings, a hidden software setting or brightness, that thing laptops come built in with anyway".

 

Obviously using the android power off thing as an example of how you can make a new system/OS and retain old paradigms was a bad idea you've failed to comprehend. Let's hope you understood the shutdown image thing better since it's much more on target. Nope, you at least understood that part but still think it's much better placement in Windows 8.

 

Apple? The phone company? Oh wait, you mean Apple the company with fuck all of the computer market. You think the new start menu is intuitive and well placed and you think Apple is doing well in the computer space. Bet you're confused on why people mock Superman's wardrobe decisions. Anyway, Apple are a consumer computer company, and have a small slice of the pie, should kinda tell you something.

 

In productivity and for RSI, more in less space works a lot better. What school did you go to?

 

What'd you mean I'm ignoring laptops? do I have to say "desktops, laptops, netbooks, ultrabooks" when I can say "desktop" And you know, though being a pedant don't, I'm talking of any device with a screen, mouse/trackpad, keyboard laid out in a perpendicular fashion as opposed to something like a tablet which is a screen. And that's about where it starts and ends. It's a pretty simple distinction, regardless of X86 or ARM.

 

"Turn computer off" isn't a setting though. "Automatically log into this user" or "run the defrag at 3AM on Wednesday or when next idle" is a setting. On or off is a basic fundamental state of being for a computer.

 

"Even the differences between various Linux distros/UIs, OSX, and Windows versions confuses the shit out of most people."

(especially as you're referring to the shutdown thing)

 

 

@Fuchi:

WinRT is the main framework of Windows 8, the underbelly of the whole new Metro stuff and all that. It is on all versions of Windows 8, it is in essence "Windows 8". Windows RT is the confusingly named version of what was once "Windows for ARM". So yeah, it's not just the new shutdown that's a confusing ill thought out thing either. MS had it fine, then changed it for changes sake.

 

@Eleven: We're aware it's built for tablet's. That's our issue, cos we're on desktops(laptops/netbooks/ultrabooks/IBM-compatibles), not tablets. And a problem with the "convergence" devices is that it's full of comprises. It's going to be larger, heavier, pricier and less portable than a tablet. And in laptop use it's going to be compromised on the UI side because it's an OS that wants to be used as a screen (which it can't because you're using it as a laptop, using the touchscreen at that position is bad for you).

The Shutdown is there as a central pillar of what defines the needless change of Windows 8 for changes sake. We've not even gotten into the Control Panel(s) of Windows 8 yet (hint, that "(s)" is a big part of the issue), or the legacy and WinRT programs, the bundling of IE10 into the OS.

Shutdown is old faithful, and focuses the discussion somewhat.

[fuchikoma]

Perhaps - we'll see if things like Photoshop, AutoCAD, etc get Metro versions. While I've had the release candidate of Win8 for a while, I haven't done a lot in Metro apps, but I can imagine a tab system for managing multiple windows/layers. But in any case, I'm not assuming the Metro as it is now will be the only option for generations to come. If the gateway to Windows programming necessarily leads through the App Store, then the apps will be designed for whatever interface they allow or push. If they can make it easy enough for the average user, it will become the norm and specialty applications will just have to adapt as they always do (for instance when Vista restricted direct access to parallel and serial(?) ports, breaking compatibility with a huge range of applications and printer drivers.)

 

While Linux taking a Metro-like interface is unlikely (copyright and IP issues), Ubuntu has already gone to Unity. And like I was saying, it may not be wholly MS' fault (well... aside from strong-arming OEMs like usual) but 5-10 years from now, it would be a great relief if a branded PC (Dell, HP, Apple, Toshiba, Acer, etc) could even boot a version of Linux. I suspect motherboard makers like Asus and MSI will hold out longer at least...

 

@Dean: I was referring to Windows RT, not the Windows Runtime, but even though every version of Windows gets shortened to Win[version], they've unfortunately shortened Windows Runtime to WinRT... It's kind of like when everyone under the sun called a PlayStation a PSX, then Sony released a PS2 DVR called "PSX". But if I say "WinRT" in the future, I mean Windows RT, the Metro, ARM CPU version of Windows.

Edited November 1, 2012 by fuchikoma

[deanb]

http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/support/surface-with-windows-RT/files-folders-and-online-storage/surface-disk-space-faq

 

So here's another of those "and it has the negatives of both sides" things. So a properly mobile OS like iOS and Android is a few hundred megs to a gig in size. Windows is quite a bit larger than that, even on the skimped down Windows RT version. Meaning the 32GB MS Surface tablet you buy only has 16GBs of usable space. That's half the space it says on the box, that's fucking well out of order. Yes a "1000GB" drive is only like 920GB in reality, but to lose half the advertised space? That's well off.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think it should be illegal for storage manufacturers to use "1 GB = 10^9 B" in their calculations of space, because that's just not true and it's blatantly misleading. Bytes are calculated on base 2, you can't just use a base 10 approximation and say "good enough". 2^10 != 10^3, 1 GB = 2^30 B, not 10^9.

[deanb]

That's not my main issue, though yeah it's a dodgy practice. (I think OSX changed a couple years back to report the decimal version instead of 1024 version). Main issue is the OS running the tablet, and this is Windows RT (the ARM tablet optimized version), is eating up many many gigabytes of space. This is part of why MinWin was a much anticipated project that never concluded. On a desktop a large OS isn't an issue, they have spacious hard drives. But on a tablet flash storage space is at a premium and 13GB taken by the OS is ridiculous.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, I know that wasn't the main issue, that's just a pet peeve of mine.

[fuchikoma]

That really is a big enough pill to swallow even on the desktop. On a tablet, it's... at least a bit insane.

iOS has been bloating, rather badly over the years... but for the 3GS versions, that basically means the installers/firmware packages are...

3.1.3: 291 MB

4.3.3: 420 MB

5.1.1: 687 MB

 

Not... over a dozen GB!

[fuchikoma]

Gamasutra article: Windows 8's hidden dangers to game developers makes the case that as an adult rated game, Skyrim for instance, wouldn't even pass certification for the Windows app store... along with predictions that the desktop would eventually be abandoned. Nothing in-depth there though, just what I was suggesting, that MS-DOS eventually was deprecated and removed as well.

[deanb]

I posted that article a while back, that's just a Gamastura republishing. It's worth noting it was written at a time when it still had PEGI 18 games banned under its rules. But yeah the fact that legacy desktop will eventually be abandoned is certainly one of the major issues people will be facing.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I'm not saying they shouldn't introduce changes, what I'm saying is they shouldn't force those changes on users who do not have the interface to use them properly. They could have kept the old-style start menu for people who want it, and also used Metro for those who have a device that it is suited for. Hell, even default to Metro and make me go into a menu to change it, but don't force an interface designed for touchscreens onto non touchscreen devices. That's what I meant when I said the desktop use was compromised.

 

The issue here is that people wouldn't end up using it because it's new and different and they run away from change instead of just trying it out.

 

@Fuchi for the tinfoil hat business - Do you think MS cutting off the desktop would ultimately benefit them? What if they lose enterprise to something else because of it? What if they lose gamers because of it? So far they haven't indicated that they want to cut either group out. Windows sells well because everyone buys it and not just certain groups. Which is why Win8 is trying to do so much at once.

 

@Dean - You still don't get your own Android argument. On Android there is no software power button. You were trying to compare that to Windows 8 software button. On Windows 8 computers, you have a hardware power button, which is exactly what Android has. I said you're ignoring laptops because you're ignoring how they're interfaced with. Been over this a million times. Windows 8 on a laptop with a decent trackpad (and potentially even a touchscreen) is a lot different experience. Oh yeah, and I finally used Windows 8 on an all in one. I think the OS is actually fucking great for that and miles ahead of windows 7 as it's optimized for both ways of interaction. Your apple comparison is missing tablets and mobile. You have to remember that not everyone is using traditional computers to do shit anymore.

 

"But yeah the fact that legacy desktop will eventually be abandoned is certainly one of the major issues people will be facing."

 

Got proof or just more of fuchi's tinhat business?

 

 

WinRT being xbawks huge on a tablet-

I wonder why they have the recovery tools on the device instead of just making you do it via computer software later on? Isn't that what everyone else in the tablet/mobile space does? Office is probably about 2gbs of that space so that makes sense but yeah... that's a lot of space out of the 32gb. That extra 5 would have really helped.

[fuchikoma]

lol. Slander always proves your point, doesn't it?

 

It's not "tinhat business," it's evolution of a product. It's the decision not to spend a large amount of resources supporting an old legacy system until the end of time. I've said this isn't something that's going to happen in Windows 8 (*cough* unless you consider Windows RT to be Windows 8...), but probably 1-2 generations after that in Win9 or Win10.

 

Come on, Faiblesse, you claim to work in IT, but you don't know this? You don't just yank the rug out from under customers and let them plummet - you plop a new rug down next to it until most of them have moved over to the new one, then when there are only a few left on the old one, and there always will be no matter how long you wait, you say "sorry, but it's no longer worthwhile for us to support this. The new one should do what you want, so it's all we're supporting now" and you pull the plug. Just like they did for MS-DOS, and product support for older Windows versions (Though the eagerness to off the Start menu signals they're rather more eager to get on with this than many would have liked...) They've seen how well the walled garden worked for Apple, and how amazingly little resistance there was to it, despite the relative freedom on other PDA platforms... and decided they wanted a cut of that too. So they hopped onto the MS-vetted App Store model, and now they're pushing it. If it goes over like a lead balloon, then they'll surely back off. If it takes off, which it very well might since it's convenient and the average user doesn't have extraordinary needs, then once desktop is a niche, they'll drop it and those who REALLY need it can probably run older versions of Windows in a VM until that's no longer useful for anything and running desktop apps becomes as running DOS apps is today.

 

This isn't some farfetched conspiracy theory - it's virtually certain to happen. The only uncertainty is when, and what the replacement will be. I'm not saying it will be Metro/Windows Runtime, but I am saying that if they can help it, it will be through the Microsoft app store. They'll never lose most enterprise and most gamers, because they'll inevitably buy the New Thing and play by its rules, and be relatively well supported overall.

 

And if they lose some gamers due to rating restrictions? Ask Australia or anywhere that refuses classification to adult titles what that's like - it's been a reality for many for a long time geopolitically as it is. Hell, look at adult games on the PC Engine or Sega Saturn, and the utter lack of them on any console after 2000. What if they lost some gamers? Whatever - it's a fait accompli so it's not as if it can't happen.

 

Also, the thing about the Android power button is that they didn't change the way it's done just to be new and innovative. The hardware power button is a software power button, and they could have changed it to press = on, double-press = sleep, triple press = off... but they didn't, because people have expectations that it will work like any other comparable device.

[deanb]

Surely if Metro was a compelling interface and environment then users and developers would naturally gravitate towards it rather than being needed to be force fed it?

 

I don't get my own point? lolwut. I know exactly what I was saying, you're the one that struggled to grasp the point I was making. You've struggled to grasp the point even when directly comparing Windows 8 to other desktop OSes. The method of powering off an Android phone is the same method as used in phones from way back when. Windows 8 is a massive change from the powering down the computer from the way desktop OSes have worked across platforms and time. Focusing on the button of a phone is what is missing the point.

99% of laptops are interfaced with via a kb/m, same as desktops, touchscreen laptops and desktops are still exceedingly rare (though yes likely to be pushed more now). I have continually focused on the use of kb/m within Windows 8. Just becuase I don't mention netbooks/laptops/notebooks/portables/whatever by name doesn't mean I'm ignoring them, I'm just saving on typing it out every time to sate your silly needs.

The reason I didn't take in their phone and tablet sales is because we're discussing a computer operating system, not a phone one. And even taking into account their tablets they still have jack shit of the computer market. If you're wanting to take into account all the OSes on the planet it becomes a whole different ballgame. So yeah the focus is on computer operating systems, especially on talking about enterprise as we were at the time.

 

Proof on threat of the Windows desktop being phased out? Easy, MS-DOS. They came out with Windows and it's new GUI interface and had MS-DOS as something you could go back to within Windows should you still need legacy programs like WordPerfect and Lotus 123. And slowly but surely it was phased out to the point it no longer runs without using a VM/emulator. You honestly don't think this won't happen with Windows in future?

[Baconrath]

Windows Ocho is srs bsns

[deanb]

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/11/27/windows-8-40-million-licenses-sold.aspx

 

It's shifted 40 million licenses in a month.

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/21/3674706/windows-8-activation-key-pirates

Oh and they've fucked up and the Media Centre add-on will unlock the full OS.

[fuchikoma]

It seems like shipped vs sold video game numbers, it's a bit hard to tell what those 40M licenses really mean.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Does it matter? Sales are sales. The example they give even points out it's still a sale even if it's not being used.

[fuchikoma]

It depends if you want to know things like... whether Win8 is being widely adopted, whether it's likely to continue to sell well, what the future of the platform looks like, etc. Also like the article says though, I agree that predictions at this point are sort of futile since there's so little data as of yet.

[deanb]

Actually if it's a sale of a license to a business that's now not using them, then it matters. If you're a developer that is being lured to WinRT and the Windows Store then you'll be wanting to know how many computers you'll be selling your app to. If several million are licenses that won't see use for two years then there's less allure.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Actually if it's a sale of a license to a business that's now not using them, then it matters. If you're a developer that is being lured to WinRT and the Windows Store then you'll be wanting to know how many computers you'll be selling your app to. If several million are licenses that won't see use for two years then there's less allure.

 

That's true.

 

Did anyone read the article about Windows Blue/8 Blue? They want to start moving to a yearly release cycle and then make apps (RT/Modern UI) not even work on the outdated version. Though it was mentioned that the upgrade will be cheap/free.