Windows 8

[deanb]

http://www.engadget....rt-plans-in-us/

 

Samsung won't be supplying Windows RT tablets in the US. Apparently demand is shit, which likely explains the lack of crowing about Surface from MS (Surface Pro, the version with full Windows 8, is yet to ship).

 

In other news, and may or may not be related to this thread, PC sales dipped for the first time in five years during fourth quarter 2012....

[toxicitizen]

Well, grabbed the 15$ Win 8 upgrade promo last night and installed it just now. I'm loving the general feel of it so far, but holy shit is it weird to navigate Windows without the start menu. I might have to look into adding it in. Probably gonna try Start8. It's by Stardock and their Fences app is pretty great.

 

Also, I was using MSE before as my anti-virus but from what I understand it doesn't work with Win 8 and it's built-in now? Anyone knows if it's any good? Should I look into getting another AV?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

...but it has a start menu. It's just tiled instead of a list. Also, how did you navigate Win 7 and Vista? You weren't typing you were doing it wrong!

 

Start8 is shit. It runs a lot slower than the Modern UI and is completely unnecessary.

 

MSE is still as good as it is before and yes it's built in.

 

Quick tips:

Win + X = power user menu

Win + C = charms- restart/shutdown, quick access to the system screen, and a few other things

Win + W = settings search

Win + Q = app search, this view shows you all of your apps rather than the ones pinned to the start menu

[toxicitizen]

Well, I used the start menu a lot to go where I needed to. Also had a lot of apps pinned to it that I didn't want on the taskbar. I get that the new interface is meant to replace it but I dunno. I probably just need to get used to it but so far it doesn't seem like I'd use it as much as I did the start menu.

 

And thanks for the keyboard shortcuts. So far I had managed to find Win + i when I was looking for the control panel but that's it. I had seen the power user menu in a screenshot but couldn't figure out how to access it.

[TheMightyEthan]

I still can't get over how fucking stupid the name "Charms" is for that menu.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

@FLD

 

You mention that you aren't going to use it that much but you just said you had apps pinned to your start menu you didn't want on the taskbar.

Now you can pin a lot more apps!

 

I didn't even know about Win + i. I'm going to start using that instead of win + C.

[toxicitizen]

Yeah, I guess. Like I said, I probably just need to get used to it. There's just something about the layout that makes it hard to think of it as just a fullscreen start menu.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

One thing I wish was that it could be organized better and apparently Decor8 (you can guess you makes it) can handle that. Haven't tried it yet.

[Eleven]

Yeah being able to pin more apps is the thing I like most about the new start menu. I have a column for my most used apps (we don't say programs anymore ) which would be the ones I pinned to the start menu before, then another for shit I seldom use, which I had to dig up / type in the start menu to launch.

 

Also, never go into the "all programs" menu (right click on start menu, and click on lower leftright). You will curse yourself for doing it. Just pin whatever you need. The start screen scrolls anyway, so, unlimited space.

 

I also want to be able to make custom images for non-metro tiles in there. I believe Ethan posted something for that in this thread. It doesn't look like Decor8 could do it.

Edited March 6, 2013 by eleven

[TheMightyEthan]

I don't think it was me.  Might have been Dean.

[deanb]

Probably not me, I don't personally use Windows 8*

 

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/05/14/windows-keeps-getting-better.aspx?

Windows 8.1 announced. It's through the Windows Store though instead of Windows Update which is kind of weird (and annoying for some, since from what Iv'e heard Windows Store has issues initialising purchases/downloads/installs, so be ironic if this was meant to fix that).

 

*We do have Windows 8 PCs at the place I volunteer at, and I hate Windows 8 even more than when I first messed with it during previews. Someone at Microsoft honestly believed this was an acceptable product to ship to desktop PCs? It's fucking trash. I shouldn't have to remember a bunch of shortcut commands to carry out basic functions of a computer. Especially as Charm 99% requires Windows+C to open on a non-touch computer. And people get trapped in Internet Explorer. There's no [X] to close tabs or programs, no task bar of programs to switch to. Did anyone at MS pull someone from the street and go "here, try and use this PC".

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Charms= top right and bottom right hot corners. Though I really do worry that you can't remember Win+C or more preferably Win+I.

 

Also you're talking about the modern UI version of IE and not the desktop version.

 

What basic functions are you unable to do? It sounds like you're in the camp of "herr derr I'm not going to use it like Windows 7 I'm going to try do all of this new shit." Stop. Use it like Windows 7 with a big ass start menu.

[Luftwaffles]

I get the feeling many of the Windows 8 haters have never used it. 

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Or they used it once and didn't think to try and use it like Win 7 and just tried to explore all of the new features. Once you're past that period (people do this with their phones as well) you settle into it.

[deanb]

Yes I've never used it. Because that's what I said in my post "I have an imaginary role at a an imaginary place where imaginary people come and attempt to use imaginary windows 8 PCs"

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to. Especially as I shouldn't need to be there to do the simple tasks of printing off documents. Ask someone on street how to print: file - print or click the print icon. Windows 8? Try to trigger charm, hit win+c, devices - printer #3 - print.

 

I know I'm talking about the Metro IE.

 

The fault isn't entirely to blame on Windows 8 mind, it's also on the shoulders of the people who bought desktops with windows 8 installed for a public area. Buy inferior products, expect inferior experience. Luckily two iMacs are there too, and people are managing well enough with those (minus the magic mouse)

[madbassman39]

I've said it before but widows 8 fundamentally changed some functions. Why can't the charms menu be part of the start screen? That would make more sense because that's where it's been for the last 20 years. You cannot give a windows 8 computer to anyone who has used 7 or prior for the last 20 years and expect them to know how to use the new functions or shortcuts without a tutorial. That, in my opinion is where windows 8 made a mistake.

 

I do like the interface on it though, but I haven't used 8 for more than playing around with other computers. I'm all for creating a new interface with computers.

 

Anyhow it sounds like Microsoft is learning their lesson and making a few changes to 8.1 or "blue" due to the overwhelming negative feedback

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Yes

I've never used it. Because that's what I said in my post "I have an imaginary role at a an imaginary place where imaginary people come and attempt to use imaginary windows 8 PCs"

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to. Especially as I shouldn't need to be there to do the simple tasks of printing off documents. Ask someone on street how to print: file - print or click the print icon. Windows 8? Try to trigger charm, hit win+c, devices - printer #3 - print.

 

I know I'm talking about the Metro IE.

 

The fault isn't entirely to blame on Windows 8 mind, it's also on the shoulders of the people who bought desktops with windows 8 installed for a public area. Buy inferior products, expect inferior experience. Luckily two iMacs are there too, and people are managing well enough with those (minus the magic mouse)

 

What the hell are you talking about? File print works exactly the same unless you're in a modern UI app. Which is exactly what I talked about in my post. You're trying to use it differently on purpose for some stupid reason.

 

Windows

8 is definitely better than Windows 7 and it's a shame people form their opinions based on what other people say on the Internet when they decide to judge it.

 

 

I've said it before but widows 8 fundamentally changed some functions. Why can't the charms menu be part of the start screen? That would make more sense because that's where it's been for the last 20 years. You cannot give a windows 8 computer to anyone who has used 7 or prior for the last 20 years and expect them to know how to use the new functions or shortcuts without a tutorial. That, in my opinion is where windows 8 made a mistake.

 

I do like the interface on it though, but I haven't used 8 for more than playing around with other computers. I'm all for creating a new interface with computers.

 

Anyhow it sounds like Microsoft is learning their lesson and making a few changes to 8.1 or "blue" due to the overwhelming negative feedback

 

Why can't it be part of the start screen? Because it gives you access to the start screen. I don't know what you mean by "that's where it's been for the last 20 years" as the start menu has never been within the start menu. That's mind boggling to consider. There also hasn't been a share function before.

Once again it makes a lot more sense to put settings under "settings" instead of where you launch applications. Oh, and Windows 8 has a tutorial when you install it, and I don't understand why people can't remember 2 new functions spread across 3 of the corners. It's literally putting the mouse in the corner of your screen. I am very worried about how people who don't understand this basic functionality especially since Windows is not the first OS to use hot corners. They're behind various Linux DEs and OSX.

The only change I can see them doing as a "rollback" is adding a start button. Which is fucking stupid since you should be using the windows key or you know... just putting your mouse in the corner where the start button was before. Because that's so hard to remember. I think Microsoft just really underestimated people's intelligence when it came to devices that have desktop mode enabled. You should have to pass some sort of test before they let you use the desktop. These people would shit themselves if they ever tried multiple Linux distros and DEs.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[toxicitizen]

You cannot give a windows 8 computer to anyone who has used 7 or prior for the last 20 years and expect them to know how to use the new functions or shortcuts without a tutorial.

 

Not 20 years but something like 15 years, starting from 95 up to 7. Hell, even had a shitty old machine that used Windows 3.1 for a bit. Skipped the Windows 8 tutorial entirely yet still managed to find my way around. Granted, it was annoying at first and some stuff was a bit hard to find initially. But after about a week, I got used to it. 

 

It's literally the same fucking thing as Windows 7. Literally. It just has an extra layer of paint on top of it. And I've been ignoring that extra layer, for the most part.

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to.

 

I can't think of a single situation where learning a keyboard shortcut isn't more efficient than using the mouse. Personally, I'm glad to have been forced to learn some of them. I initially pinned a shortcut for My Computer to my start screen because I was so used to navigate from there and I couldn't find a direct way to access it. But I've barely used it since I found out about Win+e.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

There's also Win + X. Best shortcut they've added.

[madbassman39]

 

Why can't it be part of the start screen? Because it gives you access to the start screen. I don't know what you mean by "that's where it's been for the last 20 years" as the start menu has never been within the start menu. That's mind boggling to consider. There also hasn't been a share function before

 

 

The power was under the start button since they've had the Start button. I'm not saying its hard to adjust, but to change something as small as that is pointless. To say that its not that difficult for you, someone who is computer savvy to use, is fine. I would have no problem adjusting either, but we are not in the majority. We are not the people who have a problem adjusting to new tech. The majority of people don't know everything there is to a computer, they don't know what a GPU is or what RAM does. These are the people who are going to pick up Windows 8 and be confused from the start. They will have to call someone to help them out.

 

Windows has been the primary OS used in households for a long time. Even Mac OS you click the apple logo to turn off your computer. Windows was the same until the most recent OS.

 

Windows 8 was a complete missed target. There is overwhelming negative feedback because people don't feel like the new set up makes sense. They've been doing the same thing for 15+ years and these people now need someone to show them how to turn off their computer again.

 

"Its no big deal, and not that hard to adjust to." Thats a strawman argument, and really its a very selfish point of view. I know people who had no idea they could even go to a desktop mode on their computer. Windows didn't market it properly, they didn't allow for proper transition, and they moved things (like the ability to turn off your computer) to an unnecessary, never existed before, menu. Not to mention when you turn on the computer it looks nothing like what you've seen before.

 

AND all this is coming from someone who really likes what Microsoft has been trying to do with the "Metro" style. I like Windows 8 and I wish it was received better, but I'm not blinded by my interest in the OS to ignore any of the faults the system. Its not broken, its just not intuitive nor follows the designs that people have followed since 95.

 

Look at what Mac OS did with the Launchpad. Its the same concept, a transition of new interface that can transfer from touch screen to keyboard and mouse easily. Launch pad replaced the applications folder on the dock and is required to use, The difference? Its not the main interface, and everything you've done one a previous version of Mac OS works here too. Thats how 8 should have introduced the new Start screen. A windows button in the bottom corner, launch to desktop, click the button and boom start screen. A power icon at the top left of the screen, something that could be seen instantly. All of a sudden, you have a windows that people are familiar with, but new and different, people that use their computer can adjust easier, because it looks familiar and new.

[TheRevanchist]

I agree with madbassman's assessment of how the common person uses a PC. 

 

The point of the original versions of Windows was to organize the computer to be as user friendly as possible.  So, when 95 came around, it blew Windows 3.1 out of the water.  I was a DOS guy, but even I was impressed by 95.  Screw DOS Shell when this is much easier to use and very intuitive.  Windows 8?  Not so intuitive, and getting away from what Windows was really meant to do for the end user.  It's not less complicated.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/enterprise/375550/why-microsoft-killed-the-windows-start-button

 

Microsoft didn't remove the start button for no good reason.

 

Your argument relies on the assumption that people were forced to use it. They weren't unless you bought a PC recently and since PC sales are falling... that's becoming less and less people. Is it really Microsoft's fault that people can't do a little bit of research? At some point they had to move forward.

 

Launchpad is a bad comparison. You can't run apps in Launchpad. While it does bring some of the iOS look it's not a full on "this looks and acts the same no matter what I use" that Windows has done.

 

Also, tell me, where is you software power button on your tablet and phone? I've already made these same points before. Microsoft actually made their OS modern using the lessons it's learned from itself and other OS's and people just don't like it because it's too much change at once. I do not feel bad in the slightest for anyone who can't keep up.

 

@Waldorf. It actually is less complicated in a lot of ways. It's just that the change in itself makes it seem otherwise.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[TheMightyEthan]

Here's the thing though: MS is a for-profit company, which means that regardless of whether Windows 8 is faster and more intuitive once you learn to use it, if the sudden change turns people off to their product and makes them not buy it then that was a bad decision.  In addition, saying things like "I do not feel bad in the slightest for anyone who can't keep up" just makes you come across like a condescending dick, and makes people disinclined to pay attention to your argument, however meritorious it might be.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Here's the thing though: MS is a for-profit company, which means that regardless of whether Windows 8 is faster and more intuitive once you learn to use it, if the sudden change turns people off to their product and makes them not buy it then that was a bad decision.  In addition, saying things like "I do not feel bad in the slightest for anyone who can't keep up" just makes you come across like a condescending dick, and makes people disinclined to pay attention to your argument, however meritorious it might be.

 

Sales have been better than the internet's reaction to it, that's for damn sure. So they're in an odd place where it's not selling badly but they are getting a lot of hate for it.

[Luftwaffles]

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to. Especially as I shouldn't need to be there to do the simple tasks of printing off documents. Ask someone on street how to print: file - print or click the print icon. Windows 8? Try to trigger charm, hit win+c, devices - printer #3 - print.

 

FDS covered this, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but this is just wrong.

 

 

It's not to say Win 8 doesn't have its interface issues (madbass' complaint about the charms menu being used to shut down the computer is entirely valid IMO), but printing is definitely not one of them.