Windows 8

[TheMightyEthan]

That's Chrome's print setup, not Windows'.  Show us the IE one, or one from an MS program.  (I honestly never have used Windows 8, and for all I know the hate actually could be completely unjustified.)

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

 

Desktop mode is Win7.5.

 

Word has it integrated but I assume it's like this on 7 as well since Office 2013 doesn't work any differently on 8 besides account integration as far as I know:

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Faiblesse Des Sens

[Luftwaffles]

 

From Notepad. 

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Recycle bin on your desktop and files on your desktop? At least hide the icons. Step it up.

[TheMightyEthan]

I keep the recycle bin on my desktop because I like easy access to it and if you set up the fully functional one on the taskbar (in Win7 at least) it doesn't line up right with the other icons and makes the taskbar a little taller and that bothers me.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I use a vertical taskbar to utilize the space of a widescreen monitor better so that didn't bug me. On Win 8 I just pin it to explorer (I use Clover to add tabs to explorer- I highly recommend it) and otherwise you can just add it your favorites. It's the recycle bin... you really shouldn't need to use it so much that it's always visible.

[deanb]

 

Yes

I've never used it. Because that's what I said in my post "I have an imaginary role at a an imaginary place where imaginary people come and attempt to use imaginary windows 8 PCs"

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to. Especially as I shouldn't need to be there to do the simple tasks of printing off documents. Ask someone on street how to print: file - print or click the print icon. Windows 8? Try to trigger charm, hit win+c, devices - printer #3 - print.

 

I know I'm talking about the Metro IE.

 

The fault isn't entirely to blame on Windows 8 mind, it's also on the shoulders of the people who bought desktops with windows 8 installed for a public area. Buy inferior products, expect inferior experience. Luckily two iMacs are there too, and people are managing well enough with those (minus the magic mouse)

 

What the hell are you talking about? File print works exactly the same unless you're in a modern UI app. Which is exactly what I talked about in my post. You're trying to use it differently on purpose for some stupid reason.

 

Windows 8 is definitely better than Windows 7 and it's a shame people form their opinions based on what other people say on the Internet when they decide to judge it.

"Unless you're in a Modern UI app" well yeah, we've already established quite clearly that is what I'm talking about here. I'm not trying to "use it differently on purpose", Microsoft made it work completely differently on purpose. This isn't "different" it's "default". There is no File - Print to be different from. And I was one of the first people posting in this thread with Windows 8, I've used it since dev preview. Why yourself, Luftwaffe and many others on the net try to dismiss any valid negative criticism of the OS by so obviously falsely stating "probably haven't used it and got opinion off the net" is beyond me when you two for sure are much smarter than that.

 

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to.

 

I can't think of a single situation where learning a keyboard shortcut isn't more efficient than using the mouse. Personally, I'm glad to have been forced to learn some of them. I initially pinned a shortcut for My Computer to my start screen because I was so used to navigate from there and I couldn't find a direct way to access it. But I've barely used it since I found out about Win+e.

Dunno about you guys, but except on occasions where I'm typing, such as here or blog posts or essays I'm generally using the mouse to control my PC and 99% of people also use a mouse as primary input. Which on the "efficiency" scale makes shortcuts less efficient since it means moving from the mouse and/or shift in computer operation. Also means you've got to know the shortcuts in the first place, randomly pushing key combinations or having to google functions is substantially less efficient than doing something like moving mouse over a picture of a printer. And it's balls that I have to remember shortcuts because since this is being used with a mouse the fancy swipe actions don't work meaning 9/10 Charms menu doesn't come up. (And I only know it's there because I've followed Windows 8 development, unlike 99% of PC users. And there's no indication of a menu existing there, which runs counter to their "show a little bit extra" interface of Windows 8 Phone.)

 

I don't think FDS and yourself fully comprehend that you are oddballs of computer users. For most people Windows 8 is a pain in the ass without someone having to specifically sit down with them and use the computer for them. Apart from the occasional spinning ball of doom had no such issues with the Macs and most folks coming in have never used a mac in their life. But we've already covered a while ago how Windows95-7, OSX and most Linux all have pretty much the same UX paradigm until you get to Windows 8. Which isn't even similar to phone interfaces either so knowledge of using a smartphone doesn't help either.

 

 

Here's the thing though: MS is a for-profit company, which means that regardless of whether Windows 8 is faster and more intuitive once you learn to use it, if the sudden change turns people off to their product and makes them not buy it then that was a bad decision.  In addition, saying things like "I do not feel bad in the slightest for anyone who can't keep up" just makes you come across like a condescending dick, and makes people disinclined to pay attention to your argument, however meritorious it might be.

 

Sales have been better than the internet's reaction to it, that's for damn sure. So they're in an odd place where it's not selling badly but they are getting a lot of hate for it.

I guess a 11% decline in PC sales is better than the internets reaction has been. And Windows PC manufacturers responses haven't been much better either

 

 

I didn't say I can't remember shortcuts, I said it's balls that I have to. Especially as I shouldn't need to be there to do the simple tasks of printing off documents. Ask someone on street how to print: file - print or click the print icon. Windows 8? Try to trigger charm, hit win+c, devices - printer #3 - print.

 FDS covered this, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but this is just wrong.

[screenshot here] 

It's not to say Win 8 doesn't have its interface issues (madbass' complaint about the charms menu being used to shut down the computer is entirely valid IMO), but printing is definitely not one of them.

No it's pretty right.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Keyboard is less efficient? What are you doing with your other hand again? How far away is your hand from the keyboard? How ridiculous. Besides Win + I what vital shortcuts aren't on the left side of the keyboard?

 

 

I guess a 11% decline in PC sales is better than the internets reaction has been. And Windows PC manufacturers responses haven't been much better either

 

PC sales=/=Win 8 sales. Windows 8 is selling fine as MS has recently noted but the overall trend is PC sales are declining as people move to smartphones and tablets.

 

Anyways, the solution is just to not use modern UI apps. Pretty straightforward.

[deanb]

You kinda missing the rest of what I posted there.

 

When Windows 8 would be the current OS of PCs, so PC sales = Windows 8 sales. The idea that homes and business are moving, at a rate to account for a massive 11% drop, to smartphones and tablets is pretty absurd. Sure more people are using tablets and owning smartphones. But no one, and definitely not the businesses and organisations that get PC in bulk, are replacing desktops and laptops with a phone and/or tablet.

Anyways, the solution is just to not use modern UI apps. Pretty straightforward.

Yeah, let me just go and disab... oh goddamit, turns out that's not a possibility!

[toxicitizen]

Dunno about you guys, but except on occasions where I'm typing, such as here or blog posts or essays I'm generally using the mouse to control my PC and 99% of people also use a mouse as primary input. Which on the "efficiency" scale makes shortcuts less efficient since it means moving from the mouse and/or shift in computer operation. Also means you've got to know the shortcuts in the first place, randomly pushing key combinations or having to google functions is substantially less efficient than doing something like moving mouse over a picture of a printer. And it's balls that I have to remember shortcuts because since this is being used with a mouse the fancy swipe actions don't work meaning 9/10 Charms menu doesn't come up. (And I only know it's there because I've followed Windows 8 development, unlike 99% of PC users. And there's no indication of a menu existing there, which runs counter to their "show a little bit extra" interface of Windows 8 Phone.)

 

I don't think FDS and yourself fully comprehend that you are oddballs of computer users. For most people Windows 8 is a pain in the ass without someone having to specifically sit down with them and use the computer for them. Apart from the occasional spinning ball of doom had no such issues with the Macs and most folks coming in have never used a mac in their life. But we've already covered a while ago how Windows95-7, OSX and most Linux all have pretty much the same UX paradigm until you get to Windows 8. Which isn't even similar to phone interfaces either so knowledge of using a smartphone doesn't help either.

 

So what are you doing with your other hand when using the mouse? Mine is pretty much always on the keyboard. And yeah, you have to learn the shortcuts before they'll actually be more efficient. I'm not sure how that's even a counter-argument... It's not like it's difficult to learn them, there's only about 3 I use regularly.

 

And I realize I seem to be in the minority here. I just don't understand why that is. Windows 8 feels completely similar to 7 to me, with the biggest differences being quite negligible. I never really understood why there's always such strong resistance to change when it comes to tech, actually. It just seems so fucking ridiculous to me. I had a friend pretty much lose his shit over Win 7 when he bought his current PC. I tried talking him through it a bit but he wouldn't hear anything. He was just so angry because of how different it was.

Edited May 16, 2013 by FLD

[deanb]

You really want to know where my other hand is? 

The counter argument would be there's no way to learn them without; Well in my case through following the development, which as noted is super rare in general populace. Or going through Win8 specific classes, which you shouldn't really need to. Or randomly mashing about on the keyboard until things happen. The new UI doesn't really teach you any of the shortcuts either.

 

There isn't a strong resistance to change, there's a strong resistance to unnecessary change. Gradually ramp up from a few channels to the current 50+ and even my gran can manage that one. Go from tapes, to discs, to bigger discs. Also fine.  Progress from a PS1 controller, on to a dualshock, add in sixaxis, throw on a light and next to no complaints in the change. Make the controller a dual lensed camera and suddenly you get resistance. Go from Win95, to 98, 2000, XP, Vista, Win7, all with a start menu, a "Windows" paradigm, taskbars etc. then suddenly people are thrown into this brightly coloured blue squares thing, windows are gone, start menu is gone, there's no print button, no way to turn the computer off, etc etc. Then they resist the change.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

So basically it needs a 2 minute video at the start instead of a 30 second.

 

Windows 8 has a start menu and taskbars so I don't know why you didn't include that. It really comes down to if people research products at all and people don't which makes them bad consumers. It's essentially brand loyalty. Which you think people would have known better after Vista.

[deanb]

Putting a 2 minute long video at the start of using a computer is also not ideal either.

 

The Start Menu is completely and utterly different, and also lacking in taskbars. I know you're being obtuse because you want to be obtuse but you are fully aware when someone loads up a Windows 8 PC this is what they get:

 

Which lacks a Start Menu, Taskbars, Windows, Menus, etc. 

 

And to top it off an Internet Explorer that looks and acts nothing like what they're used to as well.

 

But it's just going around in circles because you are either unwilling or unable to put yourself into the shoes of the many millions of other peoples of different ages, experiences and abilities that are attempting to make use of this new and vastly different OS.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

"How do I get to the desktop?"

Gee, I don't know, clicking the big icon that says desktop?

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Was there any point to the change beyond what looks to be an intention of making a PC interface work like an i-device?

[madbassman39]

But you see, that right there is the problem. People look at that and don't know that there is a desktop option. They believe that to be the desktop, so why would they look for the button that says desktop? The first thing they ask? "How do I get to the Google?" "How do I look at my pictures?" "How do I read my email?" These are the people that are struggling with the change. You, FDS, researched it, looked at the new options, looked at what you can do with the new Windows. You knew what you were getting into because you are someone who cares about this stuff. Most people, believe it or not, don't care. Most people want to turn on their computer and see nothing different. Most people looked at 7 and thought that the new icons on the task bar were bigger and that was it. Most people don't know that there is an option to customize how you use the computer.

 

You can blame a lack of consumer research, but these people are saying "oh I just need a new windows computer" not knowing that it has changed. Open it up and "What is this?" That's not the consumers fault for not knowing the changes. Microsoft didn't make a change that evolved into 8, it just became 8.

 

I can tell you that if they booted to the desktop, kept the windows logo where the start button was that booted to the start screen, people wouldn't hate the change nearly as much. That is more familiar than what exists now. Its not about how it works to a lot of people, its about how they can understand it to work

 

Though I doubt you will see any problem though, because you get it so why can't everybody else?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Was there any point to the change beyond what looks to be an intention of making a PC interface work like an i-device?

 

Huh? It works nothing like iOS.

 

 

People look at that and don't know that there is a desktop option.

 

It's literally right there when you boot up. Should it be glowing and bounce around and flashing red or something?

 

 

"How do I get to the Google?" "How do I look at my pictures?" "How do I read my email?"

 

Internet Explorer, Pictures app, mail app. This is actually *easier* than normal windows and provides more functionality. The only picture apps built into Win 7  are what, paint, snipping, and photo viewer? And then for mail there's... well nothing.

 

 

You can blame a lack of consumer research

 

Uh, have you ever read the MS blog or anything they've ever posted? They have shitloads of research and I even posted one about the start button and how people are using it less just a few posts ago. If anything the problem might be too much research where they forget about the human element and just look at numbers.

 

 

I can tell you that if they booted to the desktop, kept the windows logo where the start button was that booted to the start screen, people wouldn't hate the change nearly as much.

 

And then MS would still be stuck in the past and wouldn't be utilizing the more friendly built-in features because they're just sticking with what they're used to. The bottom line is that MS introduced something new while still giving you the option to do things the old way if you take a little bit of time to figure it out. If you're a power user? Use it like Windows 7. If you're introducing it to grandma? Don't even bother showing them the desktop. Point out how much they can do without ever opening it.

[TheMightyEthan]

 

You can blame a lack of consumer research

 

Uh, have you ever read the MS blog or anything they've ever posted? They have shitloads of research and I even posted one about the start button and how people are using it less just a few posts ago. If anything the problem might be too much research where they forget about the human element and just look at numbers.

 

I think he meant "you can blame consumers for not researching the product before they bought it."

[deanb]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22714048

 

They're bringing the start button back.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

from that article all they're doing is changing the button that appears when you move your cursor to the bottom left corner from the tiles icon into a windows logo and adding a permanent one to the taskbar. They still take you to the start screen not a start menu so it's not going to stop all the people who bitch about that.

[deanb]

Though no screenshot, article also stated it'll be permanent return on the desktop, it's only replacing the current hover over in the metro apps. And yeah they had an excerpt noting that it's just fudging the issues, not really rectifying the problems consumers and enterprise have with it.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

from that article all they're doing is changing the button that appears when you move your cursor to the bottom left corner from the tiles icon into a windows logo and adding a permanent one to the taskbar. They still take you to the start screen not a start menu so it's not going to stop all the people who bitch about that.

 

 

Though no screenshot, article also stated it'll be permanent return on the desktop, it's only replacing the current hover over in the metro apps. And yeah they had an excerpt noting that it's just fudging the issues, not really rectifying the problems consumers and enterprise have with it.

 

That's what I said unless I misread it?

[deanb]

Yeah, sorry. Phased out a bit I guess.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

from that article all they're doing is changing the button that appears when you move your cursor to the bottom left corner from the tiles icon into a windows logo and adding a permanent one to the taskbar. They still take you to the start screen not a start menu so it's not going to stop all the people who bitch about that.

 

Yeah but they are tweaking even how this works and we don't know the full extent of if things like launch to desktop will be true.

 

This:

 

"You can view all apps just by swiping from the bottom to view all apps, and we’ve added the ability to filter your apps by name, date installed, most used, or by category. You want the Start screen to be about all the things you love. So when you install a new app from the Windows Store, we no longer put that app on your Start screen. Instead, you’ll find these apps under apps view as mentioned above and marked as “new” where you can choose to pin the apps you want to your Start screen."

 

Will deal with a lot of people who don't want to bother organizing anything even though it ends up being far more convenient in the long run.

 

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I like the start screen and I'm glad they're not dumping it - I'm sure by the time Windows 9 rolls around people will be moaning if they take it out.