D-K Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Might be a topic well-worth discussing. Over the years, narrative has become somewhat more highlighted in games. Personally, I think this can be traced back to the great RPG-Anything merge. At some point, Story progression, characterization and growth, traits predominantly inherent exclusively to role-playing games, got adopted by other genres. Initially, that is. Later on it became apparant that the genres were beginning to merge, with no coalition as prevalent and succesful (commercially speaking) as the RPG/FPS marriage. One can easily deduce how such a formula can reach such commercial succes when one realizes that the FPS used to only focus on ACTION whilst the "narrative" was limited to phrases of bubblegum, candy-asses and 2 paragraphs of scrolltext with a picture of some unrelated object, backdropped by the soundtrack of a 1000 cascading fat women (opera) thrown in to unstink that proverbial turd. Rpg on the other hand focussed entirely on STORY, growth, story progression, lore, depth of such depth that it would create it's own gravitational laws (Morrowind) and characterization. Obviously it was Reese's Pieces long forthcoming. While I could go on and on about the turningpointmergerhabbledash, I'd thought it more interesting to ask you people what you feel is good characterization, or perhaps just what you feel is a character that speaks to you in terms of personality. Most importantly, the reason WHY this character speaks to you. Sidenote: the layout on this thing is freakin gorgeous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrifeROKs Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I had a huge argument with someone over the classification of games recently. I said that most games nowadays have some type of story driven campaign with experience and leveling of some sort. Because of this, these games could be classified as a type of RPG. He stood by the fact that these games were just games with RPG type elements. The argument didn't take place because we disagreed, it took place because he refused to admit that my point had any validity. He refused to see my point of view as possible, only wrong. Then he proceeded to become confused on why I was getting upset after he would repeatedly tell me I was wrong, that could never be right, and stupid for saying it. This may not have much to do with the actual subject, but screw it. You'll read this and you'll like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-K Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Genre's are static, their definitions are static (they were always a little awry to begin with but let's not digress) but the elements that define each genre are not. This means that not only will genres become innacurate/incomplete over time, the fact that genres and their definitions are considered static is incredibly limiting and the most probable source of contention later on. What's weird is that even though genres and their definition are static, most people, even reputable gaming sites often stray from one another in terms of classification. Where site A will determine genre based on the most prevalent gameplay mechanic (platforming, shooting, etc) site B will employ different methods of classification. The whole thing is so jumbled that the actual debate splits up in deveral sub-debates ad infinitum. The issue is best left ignored as consensus seems unlikely. Having said that, you can tell your friend; If you judge genre by gameplay elements (which your anecdote suggests he does) than any game incorporating said elements incorporates the genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 On the topic of 'RPG like elements' added to games if it's anything like Exp and Levelling, then it's not there for adding an RPG like experience, it's there because it artificially extends the amount of time you might play. It gives you a reason to stick around on MP and the such. It's a hot topic of late as it is being heavily abused by game designers. We can all agree that Farmville on the face of it is pretty shitty game. But tens of millions pour hours a day into it. It uses levels and exp to draw and keep folks in. People have things to work to. Be it Prestige, a new chicken coop. Adding in better narrative, characters can be done regardless of 'RPG elements'. While some modern shooters are working their way there I'd hardly say characters from the COD series are memorable. Half-Life 2 does pretty well. Uncharted 2 as well. They tend to focus around a very small cast. As well as hire a writer, that always helps. As for referring to games by certain genres, PXOD reviews will mark out what genres the game tiptoes into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrifeROKs Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Improved stories and characters are really what got me thinking about the "rpg" elements to be quite honest. It's nice to see that storytelling is becoming more important in developers eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brida Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 in regards to RPG elements, honestly...i think people should move away from calling them that. you know how 'gamification' doesn't make something a game? then why should we have the convo about rpg elements? to me they're incentive mechanisms meant to prey on compulsions. that's what they are. thus them creeping into other genres doesn't blur what the other genre is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jimmeh Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I remember having a bit of a debate with a friend once about how Ocarina of Time fits into the RPG genre compared to something like Tomb Raider. I had always classed OoT as an RPG, but it certainly didn't involve the traditional RPG elements such as levelling up and adapting stats. It did include changing of equipment though, but then again so did Tomb Raider, but maybe not to the same extent in TO. As for actual characterisation, it has definitely improved over the years, as systems can allow more of it to be transferred without the use of long text-boxes. And with ability to have voice-acted cutscenes, developers are seeing the need for better writing to be involved as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-K Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 @Brida: Such is one of those sub-debates. If terminology and delineating definitions don't mess it up you'll just get stuck in infinite regression... ...WHICH IS WHY I TRIED DIVERTING FROM THAT TOPIC BY STATING IT'D BY UNWISE TO GET INTO IT IN THE OP, YOUGAIS!!! GAH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLjaG Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 You should've known from the 50+ pages the RPG Manifesto thread spawned that this would happen! At the end of the day, it can't be properly defined, so it's pointless to argue. Person 1 considers the gameplay mechanics of the original RPGs (leveling, equipment, class building) to be the quintessential element of what an RPG is. Person 2 believes it was about story telling and character growth and development since that was also a hallmark of early RPGs. At the end of the day, both sides are correct, so where do we draw a line and how to we differentiate between the two? It's a pointless endeavor really. Which I guess is why I want to write a piece about the history of the RPG genre and it's classifications so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-K Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 "While I could go on and on about the turningpointmergerhabbledash, I thought it'd be more interesting to ask you people what you feel is good characterization, or perhaps just what you feel is a character that speaks to you in terms of personality. Most importantly, the reason WHY this character speaks to you. Gah!x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brida Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I am thinking about my answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-K Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 That's why I like you My scathing retortquote was directed at Kanji for failing to spot what I mentioned twice, then berating me for a mistake I didn't make whilst committing said mistake himself. I don't do facepalm jpegs so this is what I came up with. Repeating myself. .. doesn't sound as scathing as it looks, but that's why I used really big letters! eh, Kanji can permit a lapse in cool every now and then, he's pretty stocked up on cred as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLjaG Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 My post was mostly a response to everyone who decided to go off topic, telling them their their argument was a pointless endeavor (and reiterating the point you were making). Only the quip about the RPG Manifesto thread was directed at you. Do I win back my cool points now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-K Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Hmm, some. Reiterating doesn't really get you anything, adding to the conversation does. Also, I didn't really participate in that thread other than maybe a post or two, I think it was mostly ethan, dean and you. I guess I'll let it slide though, I'm nothing if not the eternal optimist, right? Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I don't see any real universal standard for "good" characterization because so much depends on the game they're in. Methods that work for one might not work so well for another, so I can't make a list of things that I think "work". As for characters I can relate to...I'll have to think about that one for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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