The Hobbit

[Waldorf and Statler]

I love how 90% of the dwarves are comic relief face. And that's not sarcasm.

[TCP]

The one on the top row, second to the left, doesn't even look like a dwarf.

[Waldorf and Statler]

Hahaha yeah. I guess they tried to go ala Game of Thrones and have one non-great-big-bushy-beard dwarf.

[madbassman39]

This movie looks like a Lord of the Rings rip-off. They even got the same actor play the wizard!

[deanb]

 

I think this might be the final video except for premiere I guess.

[deanb]

https://www.facebook...151372387656807

 

And on the premiere we get a clip of the fateful meeting.

 

And an interview with some of the cast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-20702044

 

We're planning to go see it Saturday night. Should be good.

[deanb]

There's absolutely no tension in the action setpieces. I'm surprised they haven't lost a dwarf or two already; I'm thinking perhaps they're saving that for later. Plus, nearly every conflict is predictable in that whenever things look bad, you know the dwarves/Gandalf/eagles will come to the rescue at the last moment. At least they signalled the eagles one...

 

Thorin snaps at Bilbo completely out of the blue (or because they had to pull him up from falling off a cliff?!), like it was a plot point that needed to be forced in for the 'satisfying ending bit'. Could've done with something more substantial, with Bilbo actually endangering them somehow.

 

I don't know if it was in the books or not, but that Storm Giants bit was stupid. Even for a film that features a guy splattered in bird poop, who rides on a sled made of nobbly branches and pulled by rabbits.

 

 

A reply to what your wrote.

 

The storm giants bit was in the books, though it somewhat borders between being an actual event and a metaphor for the raging storm they were battling through. Radagast isn't in The Hobbit at all, though he's mentioned in LotR (no other wizard is though, as Gandalf sort of alludes to with "I don't remember the names of the others")

Thoring doesn't really snap out of the blue, he did comment on how un burglar like Bilbo seemed right back at Bag End, and Thorin did just have to risk his life in order to save Bilbo.

 

 

Another reply but a spoiler for future films

 

Yeah as set-up by Bilbos "I think the worst is behind us" they soon start losing dwarfs. They are going up against a dragon after all, and via Mirkwood. In fact of their entire company you know of only three guaranteed to survive due to LotR: Bilbo, Gandalf, and Gloin.

 

edit: addition to the "spoiler for future films:

...Balin, Ori and Oin also survive too. They go to Moria.

[Hot Heart]

 

Thoring doesn't really snap out of the blue, he did comment on how un burglar like Bilbo seemed right back at Bag End, and Thorin did just have to risk his life in order to save Bilbo.

 

 

 

I got the earlier doubt and 'risking his life bit', but I really don't think it was handled very well. He still had to be pulled up himself, after all, plus the 'thunder-battle' was total chaos, so any one of the dwarves could've been in the same position. I get that Thorin might be agitated but if Bilbo is supposed to have his redeeming hero moment later on, the original outburst/breaking point needs to be a little more justified.

 

[Thursday Next]

 

I wasn't too sure about the stone giants either. In LotR the mountain is supposed to be the one hurling itself at the fellowship and Jackson adapted that to good effect. I'm not sure it's been made clear that the Necromancer is Sauron from the film, and as Dean points out, he has the gift of foresight in this regard.

 

 

Book spoiler:

 

 

They don't lose any dwarves till the battle of the five armies.

 

[deanb]

See Thursday I was trying to keep suspense by not pointing out exactly

when some of them die.

 

 

Also

Saruman was the only one to say it is an ordinary man. the Morgul blade pretty much sets in stone that it's Sauron returned.

 

[Hot Heart]

For what it's worth...

 

I didn't think the necromancer was Sauron. I only knew him as a big eye on a mountain. Was hoping it might be another potential 'Sauron ally' that needed stopping. So, thanks, Dean.

 

[deanb]

Did you blink during the scene where

Radagast was attacked by the Witch-King of Angmar

and then nip for a loo during the scene where

Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond and Galadriel are discussing Saurons return, the impossibility of the place where the blade came from, and Saruman (who you know from LotR is not to be trusted) is the only one arguing it to be a man meddling with black arts in Saurons fortress with Saurons second-in-command.

 

 

You see in the books

 

It's not until Mordor starts up again n Gandalf clicks about the ring that he puts two n two together and realises the simple, yet somewhat powerful, Necromancer they drive from Dol Guldur during events of The Hobbit was probably Saurons spirit. Hence my complaint they straigh away figure it's Sauron, an entity thought by many to be destroyed long ago.

 

[Hot Heart]

My, you do get defensive.

 

Like I said, I've not read the books, so I don't know all the details. All I knew is I saw a ghost guy with a sword (same as you also see helping Aragorn in RotK), and Sauron's not due to be a threat for over half a century. The fact that he had a Morgul blade would just mean it's connected to Sauron and, yes, one of the Nazgul. For all I know, the necromancer could be sewing seeds for the return of Sauron. Whether he's really a man or not, doesn't really mean anything in a universe with so many unnatural things; I put it more down to Saruman dismissing him as a threat than him being the almighty Sauron.

 

If I really wanted to, I could have put things together, but I was happy remaining unaware. And it's not really a major issue to me anyway, which is why I'm not actually bothered by knowing. Evil in Tolkien is never really complex.

 

[Thursday Next]

 

But they don't think that. They just know that "a" dark power is stirring. Smaug is not aligned with Sauron and he's a badass, who's to say that the Necromancer is not just a bad guy? Given that it's the Witch King's blade, then it could well be the Witch King himself.

 

Also, Saruman is not "evil" at this point, he's just arrogant and complacent. He genuinely believes it's a human sorcerer. Pretty sure he'll be along for the ride when they go kick the Necromancer's butt.

 

 

Book related:

 

I gathered you were trying to keep that suspense hence "book spoiler" as opposed to film spoiler.

 

[deanb]

@HH: Not getting defensive, just not liking the implication that I've spoiled something when it's shown in the film.

 

@TN:

Book spoiler

 

No we know by this point Saruman is pretty evil. He is aware of the ring, he knows it's Sauron. Saruman is very old, his plans do not suddenly spring into action in a couple of decades, he had being wanting Sauron left unbothered in Dol Guldur so that Saruman could claim the ring when it revealed itself.

 

 

As for the film

 

Well yes the ghost that attacked Radagast was the Witch King. We get a pretty good look at the Nazgul in spirit form in LotR so we know whose ghost it is.

 

 

 

btw would you like me to shift this discussion over to the Hobbit thread?

[Hot Heart]

@HH: Not getting defensive, just not liking the implication that I've spoiled something when it's shown in the film.

 

The was meant to suggest that I wasn't fussed (though I admit, I find it funny to push your buttons). A bit of aggression clearly crept into your response. And as T-Next attests, it's not as clear-cut as you might think, particularly if you're not familiar with the whole story.

 

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now. And I'm really not bothered either way; just figured it was worth explaining the perspective of someone going into the films fresh.

[Thursday Next]

Can do.

 

Bookish:

 

I meant it could be just that the Witch King is the Necromancer, it's not made clear who it is (unless you know already in which case it's obvious). Gandalf does not know Bilbo has the ring. He knows Bilbo is hiding something, but he doesn't know it's a magical ring, let alone what magical ring it is.

 

[Waldorf and Statler]

I read the book a while back ago in spanish so forgive this question if it seems stupid but

 

 

Doesn't Gandalf eventually have a talk with Bilbo about the ring? I mean at the very least I could almost swear he takes the ring away from him at the end

 

[deanb]

Yeah.

 

In the film he actually watches Bilbo put the ring in his pocket (@TN). And in the book Gandalf does pull Bilbo aside and confront him on his extremely good disappearing act. Sure he's a hobbit, and thus quiet, but not that quiet.

It's a plothole of the original books. And for all he can tweak stuff Peter Jackson can't really cover up the fact it takes 60 years for Gandalf, a ring bearer himself, to figure out that Bilbos ring might not be a simple ring. (Especially as Middle Earth is not a place where such overt magic as invisibility is commonplace).

[TheMightyEthan]

And for all he can tweak stuff Peter Jackson can't really cover up the fact it takes 60 years for Gandalf, a ring bearer himself, to figure out that Bilbos ring might not be a simple ring. (Especially as Middle Earth is not a place where such overt magic as invisibility is commonplace).

 

I'm not really up on the lore aside from what's in LotR and the Hobbit, but I thought part of that was because

 

 

Sauron's power was still weak when Bilbo first got the Ring, so it wasn't as obvious what it was.

 

[Hot Heart]

I reckon the filmmakers are aware of that and have some sort of plan up their sleeve. At least, something that doesn't seem quite so odd.

 

 

Otherwise, they could've just omitted Gandalf catching a glimpse of the ring and essentially 'covering' for Bilbo. Instead, they could have had Bilbo remarking that he's very small and burglar-like, which is how he was able to sneak past the orcs (when it reality he was actually incredibly lucky to stumble across a route that pretty much led him right outside ), since it still keys into what was being said earlier.

 

[Thursday Next]

Yeah.

 

In the film he actually watches Bilbo put the ring in his pocket (@TN). And in the book Gandalf does pull Bilbo aside and confront him on his extremely good disappearing act. Sure he's a hobbit, and thus quiet, but not that quiet.

It's a plothole of the original books. And for all he can tweak stuff Peter Jackson can't really cover up the fact it takes 60 years for Gandalf, a ring bearer himself, to figure out that Bilbos ring might not be a simple ring. (Especially as Middle Earth is not a place where such overt magic as invisibility is commonplace).

 

 

Yes Gandalf confronts him, but he doesn't know that Bilbo has a, let alone "the" Ring.

 

[deanb]

I reckon the filmmakers are aware of that and have some sort of plan up their sleeve. At least, something that doesn't seem quite so odd.

 

Otherwise, they could've just omitted Gandalf catching a glimpse of the ring and essentially 'covering' for Bilbo. Instead, they could have had Bilbo remarking that he's very small and burglar-like, which is how he was able to sneak past the orcs (when it reality he was actually incredibly lucky to stumble across a route that pretty much led him right outside ), since it still keys into what was being said earlier.

 

Errrmm.... You sure you've not read the book?

 

 

And for all he can tweak stuff Peter Jackson can't really cover up the fact it takes 60 years for Gandalf, a ring bearer himself, to figure out that Bilbos ring might not be a simple ring. (Especially as Middle Earth is not a place where such overt magic as invisibility is commonplace).

I'm not really up on the lore aside from what's in LotR and the Hobbit, but I thought part of that was because

Sauron's power was still weak when Bilbo first got the Ring, so it wasn't as obvious what it was.

You don't even need to be up on the lore; just watching the film both Gandalf and Aragon, a wizard/maia and a numenor who hangs around with elves, comment on how how truly magical the power of invisibility is. Gandalf also expands his comment on this with a fact of there not being many magical rings in the world (there's not many magical items full stop.)

 

@TN: I can't be bothered to re-read through the hobbit again but I'm pretty sure he finds out about the ring. Unless Gandalf is to assume Bilbo learnt to go invisible on his own.

[Thursday Next]

Checking for references to "Ring" on my kindle (obvious big spoilers related to the book and general LotR / Hobbit lore:

 

 

After rejoining the dwarves and escaping the misty mountain "[bilbo] said nothing whatever about the ring" after Bilbo finishes his story Gandalf says "Mr Baggins has more about him than you guess." and gives Bilbo a funny look "and the hobbit wondered if he guessed at the part of his tale that he had left out."

 

In Mirkwood he tells the dwarves that he is going to disappear, and eventually tells them of the finding of the ring, but Gandalf is not there.

 

They don't meet Gandalf again until after Bilbo steals the Arkenstone and gives it to Bard. The ring is not mentioned in Gandalf's presence at all.

 

So while Gandalf may have been told about the ring at some point after the battle of the Five Armies it's not unreasonable to think that he did not know it was the One Ring. It could for example, (especially given that it was found in a mountain) been one of the seven rings forged for the Dwarf Lords.

 

[deanb]

Well it couldn't be one of those as

the last of them belonged to Thrain, which Sauron/Necromancer reclaimed when he imprisoned Thrain. Gandalf met Thrain in his imprisonment, getting the key and map.