Kinect

[Strangelove]

I bought the balance board just for Wii Fit. I liked it a lot. Built like a rock and accurate as could be. I also don't think the Move is a complete failure, no more than the PSP was. According to people who never had one, the PSP was a colossal failure because it didnt sell more than the DS.

 

Overall I just have a big fucking bone to pick with MS. They do and have done so much wrong these past 6-7 years, but their marketing has twisted it to make people believe its ok. I find that very annoying. I wont get into it though, otherwise Ill never stop.

Plus, I assume people already know what my problems are with them anyways.

[FredEffinChopin]

I'm wondering if we can finally declare Kinect a failure as device even if it did sell well. Thoughts?

 

Even though the question is there inviting me I feel like I'm trolling....

 

I declared Kinect a failure back when it was called "Eye Toy". Improving the tracking tech slightly doesn't change the main problem; the interface, the human body. Controllers and games have evolved hand-in-hand for a long time, so naturally removing one of those things and trying to leave the other as-is is going to be really awkward. It would take far superior tech of this type to achieve the wild fantasies that they sold everyone on, and even then it's still not for our video games as we know them. Aside from a few neat ideas the could apply to gaming (peripherally, *in addition to* a more traditional interface, usually) all anyone has been able to come up with is drastically dumbed-down versions of the games we've come to enjoy, where physical motions are mapped to functions that would normally be executed by a button-press. So basically they're re-inventing the wheel and making it a trapezoid this time around. It's great to use for certain things. Mainly dancing. And working out, and stuff like that. I'm sure it could teach me Kung-Fu (woooah.....), but it won't let me be be Ryu Hayabusa.

 

@Strangelove

I feel that last sentiment big-time. Every time I saw the word "potential" being thrown around in regards to this thing (especially after months of it just lying on the ground panting while people waited for backflips) I wanted to go to sleep. If you've ever asked one of those people what the potential they were imagining looked like, it was always either be a fantastic tale of technically impossible (for the device) feats and improbable premises that would be lousy even if someone was stupid enough to attempt to breathe life into them, or you would discover that they only knew that the tech looked impressive, and they were expecting all the big and unexpected ideas to come from devs any minute. So it's been a while, and while I hate to say "I told you so", I also love saying it. As I had expected, devs put a big smile on and did their best, but pretty much just scratched their heads at the thing when everything was said and done. Even though it's not quite done... it is in one sense. I suspect that we'll see the child of Kinect next gen though. I hope for the sake of the people who are still holding out hope for the device that whoever designed the first one just admits they were wrong and makes sure that the next one is designed to work in conjunction with a controller. And sitting down. That's the day I'll stop disrespecting it as gimmick that was convincingly developed, marketed, and sold on a premise that had already (and recently) proven to be whack. I felt like I was in the Twighlight Zone watching those things sell...

 

I was excited for the Eye Toy at first too, btw. I went through all the emotions that initial Kinect enthusiasts went through, used the word "possibilities" a whole bunch, and started trying to imagine how it might change the way I game. Then I bought one. Then I started really examining this potential I was hoping and waiting for, and discovered it to be a fleeting thing. I also realized that many ideas that seemed halfway decent involved a controller working with the camera. It seems the dudes who made the Eye Toy realized that as well, and went a more practical route. I just don't understand why much of the gaming community at-large decided to pretend that that never happened...

 

Anyway, ultimately any drastically different interface needs to be able to help us do new and more things in games if it wants to attract the "hardcore" gaming audience. That's the way we've evolved this whole time. We want to be able to accomplish/execute as much as possible, as quickly and easily as possible. The fantasy from childhood for my gaming in the future was playing a Zelda game in three dimensions and gorgeous graphics where I could ride my horse around while firing arrows in any direction, draw a sword while jumping the gap, and aim for the skeleteon's head before I hit the ground. The fantasy was not jumping in a fixed spot with my legs spread to let the game know my horse should run, as I try to convince myself that I'm so immersed. Let the game emulate the awesome shit and give us greater and more detailed control over it, not the other way around. Sure, there are AR and VR possibilities that are interesting and will likely catch my interest in the future. They may likely even be the future of games. As games stand now though, don't try to sell me on taking away the stuff that works most in the name of so-called innovation. When the future is here I'll know it. This isn't it.

[Strangelove]

Amen, brother.

[excel_excel]

Do you guys think a Nunchuck/Nav type controller would have helped the Kinect achieve a much more solid base upon which to develop games for? Granted a Nunchuck controller would take away one of your hands but you still have full movement of your whole body to use and by tying movement to that controller you don't have to design some illfated movement system with Kinect.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think having some kind of physical object you could use with the Kinect would have helped immensely, especially for things where you're supposed to be manipulating some kind of object, like sword-fighting.

[deanb]

However it would have completely destroyed their marketing. If they were to add a nunchuck they may as well have not Eve bothered.

[TheMightyEthan]

No, I mean something entirely passive, along the lines of this:

 

 

just to give you something physical to hold and for the camera to track. Maybe have each end a different color so it can tell which way it's facing. It'd be simple enough that it wouldn't compromise their "controller free" advertising, and it wouldn't be even the slightest bit intimidating without controls on it.

[deanb]

So when talking nunchuck we're meaning the actual weapons? Even then it'd be a slught compromise on the vision and wouldn't help much. you'd need something sword sized, but that comes with issue of slowing kinect processing down as it'd have to seek out the sword/prop, divide it from skeleton, and have many more body configurations to run through that involve the prop. And even more issues when people reckon they can replace the Official Kinect Prop™ with any old item.

 

A controller nunchuchuck is fairly simple, two buttons and a stick. I'd say main issue is 3D navigation. That trips most folks up, the movement of the stick doesn't wholly translate to movement of player in game. Bit like patting your head and rubbing your belly.

[TheMightyEthan]

I didn't mean the actual weapon, just a handle with something at either end that Kinect can recognize and track. You could map it to a sword or a tennis racket or whatever you want.

 

 

The part about the refs holding grudges for you swearing at them cracks me up.

[deanb]

But you couldn't map it to "whatever you want" though. Kinect works by taking your pose then matching it up with an internal database of skeleton poses then passing this onto the game to do whatever it wants with it. Add in "a tennis racket or whatever you want" and you make the pose database pretty much useless, thus requiring kinect to have to actually work out what pose your making on the fly, and it struggles with the concept of "on the fly" as it is.

[TheMightyEthan]

But you could add in a handle, and have Kinect pass the handle position/orientation to the game for the game to do whatever it wants with it. I'm not saying the person would use whatever object they wanted, I'm saying they would use a special handle specifically designed to be recognized and tracked by Kinect, and that the GAME could map that position data to whatever object they wanted the handle to represent.

[deanb]

But a handle would be in your hand, thus obscured. And Kinect tracks hands already.

[TheMightyEthan]

That's why I chose a handheld barbell as an example: the bulbs at either end would make it easier to see/track. And yeah Kinect tracks where your hands are but it's not great at tracking their orientation, plus it would make it seem more natural for the player if they were actually holding something when imitating an activity where you hold something (like tennis or sword fighting or whatever).

[deanb]

I understand your reasoning for suggesting they do that, and it likely will have come up during R&D. I'm just explaining why Kinect can't.

[excel_excel]

I was thinking about just something with a control stick on it really but it would work well as a physical object for stuff like Star Wars. I'm sure it could be used by Kinect anyway purely as a control for moving at its most basic and they could have easily kept their same marketing "YOU ARE THE CONTROLLER" and just slip that nav controller into the actors hands they have jumping around, an innocent white thing just there, being around in the games that needed to use it.

Edited July 31, 2012 by excel_excel

[Luftwaffles]

This is probably the best use for Kinect I've seen so far.

[TheRevanchist]

Kinect permanent price dropped announced. Too bad that at $110, the price is still too high. $50 might have suckered me in, but, even then, maybe not this close to the next gen consoles being released.

[deanb]

http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsoft-diskinect-freeloading-tv-viewers/

 

So MS have a patent, and I've a feeling that is all it will remain, that'd allow the console to use Kinect to work out how many, and who, is watching a movie or what not and disable playing of the video should the viewers be too young, or too many.