Required Reading

[Hot Heart]

I can't comment on the game myself, but it seems there has been a lot of talk about the opening to The Witcher II. Some people are claiming inadequate tutorials (or 'tooltips') while others are saying people should be reading the manual. So...

 

Do you think game manuals should be required reading or should a game be able to teach you all its mechanics as it goes?

 

Personally, I like when I can just get into a game and learn as I go but it can make for some boring openings sometimes; or it messes with the fiction as your badass hero is learning some pretty basic stuff. Obviously this can vary from game to game, but I don't think I'd criticise one for not including (hand-holding) tutorials. Sometimes, figuring things out for yourself can be fun and quite satisfying.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I can sympathize with both positions, but growing up on games like Civilization, Sim City, and various flight simulators has conditioned me to dig through manuals for anything that's not clear from the get-go. That being said, I don't habitually read the manual before trying to learn by experience.

[CorgiShinobi]

I feel like there should be a mix of both. Some games will give you the basics, but skimming through the manual will offer advanced tips/moves.

 

If I were to make a game, I would break the fourth wall and have a NPC refer to the manual as some kind of Hero's Guide or what have you. Think of it as when Metal Gear Solid made you look for Meryl's frequency on the back of the case.

[deanb]

Well as I said in the Witcher thread Manuals used to be in-car reading for coming back from town with the latest game. In-game tutorials are kinda handy and do break down the barriers for getting into the game, but they do have the side effect that if you know what you're doing you're having to blast through this crappy bit (RTS games have always been terrible for this "Right click to select a unit" "I KNOW!!!")

 

I think what would be best is that the tutorials are a separate starting chapter, nothing story based just like "boot camp" or something. You can go for it or skip it, also if it's separate you can take a refresher whenever. Nothing worse than cracking open a long left game and going "what the fuck was I doing? What was the shoo...oh that's the rocket launcher..woops".

 

Some manuals are pretty crappy. Regardless of in-game tutorial or not they should still have a decent amount of info in. Even if it's an in-game PDF-like manual.

[RockyRan]

I think it depends on what tutorials we're talking about. If we're talking about extremely basic things that the game expects you to know 20 minutes in, there's no reason to expect the player to go read the manual. For instance, I heard that Wither 2 doesn't tell you that you get extra damage if you're hit from the back, and if that's the case that really should be outlined in the game somewhere, especially since all it takes is just a two-line pop up saying "YO. HIT FROM BACK = 200 DAMAGE YA HEAR??"

 

If it's more in-depth stuff such as advanced tactics, etc., yes it would probably be better if it were in the manual. Mostly because manuals are nowadays distressingly thin on content, but also because packing the game itself with "Pro Tips" that the player may or may not even want is also shitty in itself.

[Johnny]

Good game design: having the game introduce the player to the game's mechanics neatly without having it feel like a tutorial. Example: Portal.

 

Bad game design: RTFM

[Hocking]

When I was younger I used to love reading through the big thick manuals that games used to come with. I think the one I remember most fondly was the one that came with Star Wars Force Commander. These days though the manuals are more or less leaflets filled with disclaimers; so more often than not I ignore them completely.

 

I do really enjoy being able to just jump into a game though, provided you're not thrown straight into combat, I like that sort of awakening feeling you can get. Leaving the sewer system for the first time at the start of Oblivion for example. On the same page though, I hate when certain features aren't very well explained and it takes repeated failures to pick it up. Such as the lock-picking in Oblivion.

[Mr W Phallus]

Good game design: having the game introduce the player to the game's mechanics neatly without having it feel like a tutorial. Example: Portal.

 

Bad game design: RTFM

Also bad game design: Excessive hand-holding which renders significant sections of the game tedious and unenjoyable for second time or experienced players.

 

Try restarting Assassin's Creed 2. First time round it is quite good, you are eased into the game mechanics slowly and the 'tutorial' is suitably story-focused. Second time round it's boring as hell, and since it's incorporated into the story there's no way to skip it.

 

This article comes to mind: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-mario-bros-3-level-design-lessons

[Hot Heart]

This article comes to mind: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-mario-bros-3-level-design-lessons

 

Thing is, a lot of that is only relevant with hindsight. Sure, it's admirable in the way the stuff is there to demonstrate the various aspects but you're not going to know some of them are there or how to do certain things without having read the manual.

[Strangelove]

I only like manuals for backstory and illustrations. I NEVER read the actual info on how to play the game because i know the game itself will do a better job of it.

 

Funnily enough, Peace Walker has a great tutorial level at the start of the game. As Big Boss you get called on to train some of your soldiers......by wailing on them. Its great.

[Mr. GOH!]

I think most mainstream consolized games probably shouldn't need much in the manual department. But if you insist that more complex strategy games have inherently bad design because the manuals are indispensable, well, you're wrong. Some folks like complex games that aren't half tutorial. This 'manual' may take the form of in-game help or a virtual manual like, say, the Civlopedia in Civ games.

[Pirandello]

Biggest qualm: At least put the important stuff inside the game.

 

Like knowing which button the "whirl" skill attack is supposed to be, in Witcher 2. T_T

[TheMightyEthan]

I think what would be best is that the tutorials are a separate starting chapter, nothing story based just like "boot camp" or something. You can go for it or skip it, also if it's separate you can take a refresher whenever. Nothing worse than cracking open a long left game and going "what the fuck was I doing? What was the shoo...oh that's the rocket launcher..woops".

I agree with this 100%. Story-integrated tutorials are shitty for 2 reasons: they're tedious if you play the game again, and they're awkward to access if you haven't played the game for a while. Separate tutorials, which you access independently and which allow you to pick which topics to cover are by far the best solution.

 

I also like how Civilization does it, where you can adjust the level of help you get from your advisers, and then to learn the really advanced stuff you check the manual.

[Johnny]

Also bad game design: Excessive hand-holding which renders significant sections of the game tedious and unenjoyable for second time or experienced players.

 

Try restarting Assassin's Creed 2. First time round it is quite good, you are eased into the game mechanics slowly and the 'tutorial' is suitably story-focused. Second time round it's boring as hell, and since it's incorporated into the story there's no way to skip it.

 

This article comes to mind: http://www.significa. ..-design-lessons

 

Yeah sure an introduction can like all things be done wrong.

Once again I submit Portal as an example of doing it fucking right.

[Mr W Phallus]

Also bad game design: Excessive hand-holding which renders significant sections of the game tedious and unenjoyable for second time or experienced players.

 

Try restarting Assassin's Creed 2. First time round it is quite good, you are eased into the game mechanics slowly and the 'tutorial' is suitably story-focused. Second time round it's boring as hell, and since it's incorporated into the story there's no way to skip it.

 

This article comes to mind: http://www.significa. ..-design-lessons

 

Yeah sure an introduction can like all things be done wrong.

Once again I submit Portal as an example of doing it fucking right.

Portal is pretty unique in the artificiality of the setting, however. The story of the game is that you are playing a game and so it is easy (relatively speaking; let's not belittle Valve's achievements) to gradually introduce the player to the game mechanics when the entire game is a series of enclosed rooms, specifically designed as a portal puzzle. When other games attempt to recreate this narratively logical, step by step introduction to the game mechanics it almost always feels awkward because the game is not structured in that way. So when you play the beginning of ACII you plod through a series of enclosed encounters, each bridged by cut-scenes because unlike in Portal each 'room' does not directly lead onto the next one. Further problems arise in games (particularly shooters) where you are an established bad-ass and should therefore, narratively speaking, be accomplished at everything from the moment you pick up the controls. I'm sure I've gone on about how good the level design in Half-Life 2 is many times on this forum now, but the opening level is a great example of slowly easing you into the game mechanics without it feeling like a tutorial. In fact the chase sequence through City-17 is a contender for my favourite moment in a video-game ever and that happens before you're even given a crowbar to hit things with, let alone a gun.

 

I'd like to point out I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, Johnny, just rambling on for the sake of it.

 

Finally, unrelated to all that, if people are happy to memorise long lists of move combinations from a (usually in-game) manual for fighting games (or alternatively button-mash regardless of the existence of a list of moves) then why are they so reluctant to do this in other genres?

[Hot Heart]

Fuck! Meant to pos-rep Mr. Penis' post but managed to hit the wrong one.

 

Is it possible for a mod to fix this? Pleeeaaaase? :grin:

 

 

Yeah, that's what I think people were getting at in The Witcher II. He's supposed to be an accomplished fighter so shouldn't need tutorials/training. As I've seen someone say before, the alternative would be to have this character imparting their 'wisdom' on another in order to inform the player (I seem to recall first witnessing this in FFVII). In some cases that would then involve taking the player away from who they thought they were controlling in order to play as someone else. While not major, I guess it can be slightly jarring.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Hot Heart

[Yantelope]

This is such a delicate balance. No in-game tutorials can suck if you need to know certain things about the game but didn't read the book but long drawn out tutorials are very tiresome. FFXIII was probably the worst offender. You shouldn't have to play for 20 hours before all the game's features are open. I think the manual should be there for explaining the more complex aspects of a game. I can't tell you how many times I've played a game like Oblivion where I'm supposed to customize my character but I have no idea what the stat points are really going to do for me. You should never have to read an internet FAQ/walkthrough in order to make sense of the game's mechanics. Simcity comes to mind as well. There are many ways that the different zones and buildings effect each other in that game but there's no way to figure it out without reading about it in an FAQ.

 

So, to summarize, teach me how to play the game but be quick about it and if it's complicated than write it up in the manual in detail.

 

PS. Portal 2 actually strikes me as a bad example of in-game tutorials because the whole freaking game plays like a tutorial as they're always teaching you to use some new thing. It would have been better to introduce everything earlier and then utilize more of the gels and things in the rest of the puzzles.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Yantelope

[RockyRan]

Fuck! Meant to pos-rep Mr. Penis' post but managed to hit the wrong one.

 

Is it possible for a mod to fix this? Pleeeaaaase? :grin:

 

And I was just thinking to myself "who was the bastard who minus-repped this well-thought out post? >"

 

I pos-repped it to counter yours

[Hot Heart]

I pos-repped it to counter yours

 

Thanks!

[RockyRan]

*snip*

 

PS. Portal 2 actually strikes me as a bad example of in-game tutorials because the whole freaking game plays like a tutorial as they're always teaching you to use some new thing. It would have been better to introduce everything earlier and then utilize more of the gels and things in the rest of the puzzles.

 

I think you might be confusing the introduction of new gameplay mechanics as an overly-long tutorial. I'm not against the constant introduction of new gameplay mechanics at all. In fact, carefully dripping new mechanics to the player makes for a very well paced experience.

 

I think what's bothersome to a lot of people is when the game takes an excruciating amount of time explaining the basics of gameplay, rather than the introduction of new mechanics as time goes on. Then again that's my personal viewpoint, so I probably shouldn't speak for everybody here

[Harri]

I remember a quote from the movie industry: Show don't tell. I would apply this to video games by saying learn and apply, don't read.

[jayc4life]

Since I live a good bit away from town, I always read the manual on the bus on the way home. Force of habit.

 

I don't do it for games I buy online though.

 

But if you're going to have a ridiculously big open-world game, you bet I'm going to be wanting a map in there.

[CorgiShinobi]

It might be important to take into account the different ways individuals learn by themselves. For example, I'm a visual learner. I can't fully understand something unless it is shown to me. However, others do much better by reading instructions and other methods of information.

 

So for me, yeah, I'll probably benefit a lot more from something in-game. Still, I'll take the time to scan through a manual for any nuggets of knowledge.

[Johnny]

Portal is pretty unique in the artificiality of the setting, however. The story of the game is that you are playing a game and so it is easy (relatively speaking; let's not belittle Valve's achievements) to gradually introduce the player to the game mechanics when the entire game is a series of enclosed rooms, specifically designed as a portal puzzle. When other games attempt to recreate this narratively logical, step by step introduction to the game mechanics it almost always feels awkward because the game is not structured in that way. So when you play the beginning of ACII you plod through a series of enclosed encounters, each bridged by cut-scenes because unlike in Portal each 'room' does not directly lead onto the next one. Further problems arise in games (particularly shooters) where you are an established bad-ass and should therefore, narratively speaking, be accomplished at everything from the moment you pick up the controls. I'm sure I've gone on about how good the level design in Half-Life 2 is many times on this forum now, but the opening level is a great example of slowly easing you into the game mechanics without it feeling like a tutorial. In fact the chase sequence through City-17 is a contender for my favourite moment in a video-game ever and that happens before you're even given a crowbar to hit things with, let alone a gun.

 

I'd like to point out I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, Johnny, just rambling on for the sake of it.

 

I would like to submit another smaller example of Magicka, where it gives you access to (most) of the mechanics at once and simply ramp up the challenge until you need to use it all.

 

Finally, unrelated to all that, if people are happy to memorise long lists of move combinations from a (usually in-game) manual for fighting games (or alternatively button-mash regardless of the existence of a list of moves) then why are they so reluctant to do this in other genres?

 

That's the thing though, most gamers I know stay away from fighters largely because of that.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Johnny

[Thursday Next]

I always read the manual, normally while the game is installing and I am having a poo.

 

FFXIII was basically one huge narrative tutorial leading up to the actual fun, challenging gameplay of completing all the hunts. The fact that you can't actually unlock the top tier of skills for your characters secondary roles until after you have beaten the final boss and watched the credits roll is testament to this.

 

It definitely wasn't the way to go, as evidenced by the consumer backlash. In fact, I think FFXIII thought it was a lot more complicated than it is.