Game of Thrones (Current episode spoilers)

[Mr. GOH!]

 

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Pretty sure the Lord of Light is not a character, and maybe not even an actual god, but more of how people on the ASOIAF deal with living in a world of magic. When there's magic in the world, it makes sense to ascribe it to a higher godlike power. It seems pretty clear that the Red Priests believe in the LoL and practice magic, but it is less clear if the magic is just magic or some sort of divinity. I suspect there's no R'Hollor character, especially since GRRM has been on the record saying no gods are going to show themselves in ASOIAF. If a character claims to be R'Hollor, that character is likely not actually the god but a charlatan or very mistaken.

 

Plus, book spoilers, the Red Priests in the books all believe different things about R'Hollor and work at cross-purposes because of their zeal, not because of some sort of justified communication from a character. R'Hollor doesn't even have the decency to manifest as a talking burning bush!

 

[TheMightyEthan]

I clearly need to watch the first 5 seasons again.  I didn't even remember who the Children of the Forest were for like 2 episodes.

[FredEffinChopin]

  On 5/24/2016 at 6:31 PM, Mr. GOH! said:

 

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If a character claims to be R'Hollor, that character is likely not actually the god but a charlatan or very mistaken.

 

Plus, book spoilers, the Red Priests in the books all believe different things about R'Hollor and work at cross-purposes because of their zeal, not because of some sort of justified communication from a character.

 

 

 

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I had to look that up, I'm not sure they ever used the name R'Hollor in the show. I never noticed it at least. Filed.

 

I think that part that I quoted actually fits fairly well with my theory if we're to take it in the direction of the Lord of Light and the other gods of this world playing a role similar to that of the "gods" in the novel Lord of Light. Figures that use the populace's lack of knowledge of science/nature to pose as gods and persuade their worshipers to work in their interest. The "old gods" may be old for the exact reason that they were never gods to begin with, but uniquely powerful and informed individuals. Like the Raven, with his roots that enable wargs to essentially travel through time. He could easily be mistaken for a god (in the sense of an entity involved with the creation of the world and its creatures) in a certain context, such as the first men discovering him.

 

I do think the idea of gods in this world existing in peoples' minds solely as a result of them not being able to explain certain phenomena is a good one (and John's otherworldly experience or lack thereof backs that up, as does the revelation that the Faceless order, at least in part, basically function as hitmen who may or may not actually hold religious convictions). If the phenomena is simply the result of ambiguous forces that can only be accessed by means of specific ritual and the like though, it wouldn't explain Melisandre's seeming consternation when her visions (or her interpretation of them) become completely unreliable past a point. She is a character who seemed not only to be able to employ certain power, but who was under the impression that she was being guided by it as well. As a character who is very old, and who has specific knowledge of how to initiate some magical processes that we've seen, we would have to believe that the rituals themselves come from a chain of knowledge passed down that was corrupt either from the start or somewhere along the way, as a religious order has sprung up around them. The same way I have a hard time imagining that the unsophisticated Children of the Forest developed and employed this ritual of creating whitewalkers on their own (down to the mysterious patterns that they laid on the ground as part of the rituals), I imagine that the rituals that work for certain R'Hollor worshipers such as Melisandre couldn't have been stumbled upon accidentally. They must have come from a parties that knew more about those process than the people who currently engage them. 

 

It's also worth noting that both priestesses we've seen in the show have similar ideas of what the R'Hollor is working towards, but slightly different ideas of how he's going to get there (different "chosen" kings). A non-R'Hollor possibility is that they're tapping into the same energy (?) as each other, which could simply amount to something along the lines of energy or other non-sentient force, and the discrepancies between these priestesses "visions" could be a matter of interpretation. Even in that case though, what explanation could there be for them independently buying into these ideas of a living, earthly representative of the R'Hollor that they must aid? Melisandre appears to be acting in earnest, with no detectable ulterior motives. It seems likely to me that there is some guiding (or misguiding) entity or force that is compelling them. 

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see all of this speculation unravel in 5 days in the face of new information. Or maybe I'll learn new stuff from the novels that kicks my idea in the ass, though I understand that the show is departing fairly dramatically from its source lately. For the time being though, I'm still kind of clutching onto this one... I feel like there is room for it despite those comments that you referenced. 

 

One more note on the topic: 

Osha's' (who didn't know what a lord was when we met her) season-1 comment about the red scar across the moon indicating the coming of dragons suggests that there is Wildling lore that involves dragons, and the belief that celestial bodies respond to their presence. This from a population that never existed South of the wall, and would be hard-pressed to get a hold of any dragon stories from recent centuries involving the Targaryens, let alone give a shit about them, as the era didn't seem to bear on them in any real way. The idea of them possessing that sort of mythology sorts of jives with this idea of the dragons not just being magnificent creatures of the planet that went into extinction, but directly tied to a higher power that governs or effects nature, which you could say the new red priestess was kind of implying. 

 

One more Roger Zelazny note, unrelated to this theory of mine:

House Amber had a prince named Benedict, who was one of the most dangerous swordsman alive, and who, before the events in the novels, lost the better part of his arm (I can't remember which right now) in combat. After the loss of his arm, rather than withdrawing from combat and war, he went on to become THE most dangerous swordsman alive with his single arm, and the greatest living scholar of warfare. I was reminded of him the second I saw Jaime lose his hand. He doesn't seem to be headed down the same road as Benedict of Amber so far, but I feel like it's worth bearing in mind in the event that we should ever see Jaime become a capable warrior again. 

 

 

[Mal]

  On 5/24/2016 at 6:41 PM, TheMightyEthan said:

I clearly need to watch the first 5 seasons again.  I didn't even remember who the Children of the Forest were for like 2 episodes.

You need more Old Nan in your life.

[TCP]

Anything Old Nan ever said is basically true.

[Hot Heart]

 

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So, what are the chances that Bran winds up in a battle against wights with Meera screaming, "Burn them all!" while he's in the past with pre-Mad King Aerys?

 

[Thursday Next]

@Hotty

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Seems that prediction is spot on now we've started having visions of the mad king.

 

Things seem to be going too well. I sort of know how the Riverrun thing will turn out providing it follows the books. I have a feeling Arya is plot-armoured enough to survive the waif, but you never know I guess.

 

Sam sort of needs to get to Braavos to carry on his storyline but I wonder what will happen to Gilly and Lil' Sam.

 

I really hope the Boltons get crushed soon. The Freys will be waiting a while for their comeuppance I think.

 

 

[Hot Heart]

 

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I have a seen a theory that Bran also influences previous Bran Starks since they've supposedly been instrumental at certain points in history, with building The Wall and stuff. Also a cheeky reference that Nan used to think of "all the Brans as the same person" when telling him the stories during his time laid up in Winterfell.

 

I'm also hoping the Arya storyline is something like a feint. That maybe Arya's test was not to kill the woman and that the waif has failed due to her own grudge against her. The whole faceless men element feels a bit crap/empty otherwise.

 

[Thursday Next]

 

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I can't see a way back for Arya into the ranks (if there are more than two) of the faceless. If she kills the waif because the waif failed to become "no one" due to her jealoust of Arya then Arya is also majestically failing that test and by that logic should also be killed. If the point of the training was to be a compassionate person who doesn't kill without question, then that kind of changes what the faceless are, they seem to be somewhat ethical killers in the books, but in the show they've just been murder for hire.

I think that if Arya kills the waif, asserts herself as Arya Stark of Winterfell and decides to head home, then the time with the faceless becomes a journey of self discovery (and learning to be an effective killer), which is an acceptable use of her time in Braavos if a little unimaginative.

 

[Mister Jack]

So how about that episode last night?

 

 

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Sandor lives!  I'm glad he's not dead. I never really believed he was since they didn't show a body, but I was talking to people who were completely convinced he was a goner. Now I get to say "I told you so."

No way Arya is gonna die from her stab wounds. I know sudden death is a staple of this show, but if she dies now then her entire arc for the past three seasons was just a giant waste of time and they're not going to piss everyone off like that just for the sake of a twist.

 

[deanb]

 

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You mean like that time they let Rob build up an army, then just killed him and family? I agree unlikely to die just yet, I'm reckoning she's gonna somehow end up with Varys through one of his little birds.

 

It was a pretty dang good episode. This series in general is great. I quite liked seeing some of the aftermath of the War of Kings, especially with Robs side being destroyed n how that's shaken trust in the Starks. No doubt they'll take winterfell and that'll bring folks to their side, probably worry the Lannisters n Tyrells whose houses are faltering and they're focused on the High Sparrow at the door rather than rising King in the North.

 

I like the chess pieces moving to bring the Ironborn mutineers to Danerys just as she's wanting a bunch of ships.

 

[Hot Heart]

 

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CLEGANEBOOOOOOOWL! (It does not look like it would naturally head in that direction, but you never know...)

 

 

Good episode overall. Even though it sometimes feels like not a lot is happening, it is, and you can see more pieces move into place.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Hot Heart

[Strangelove]

Why is everyone doing the spoiler thing? Isnt it a given that if you come in here its going to be a discussion about the current episode.

I guess Ill go along with it.

 

 

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Ian McShane must have been really expensive.

I also hate whatever the hell is happening with Arya. Its dumb and pointless. I dont care if shes alive or dead or sleeping or on drugs or whatever, that part of last night's episode was badly written.
Ive been loving this season but I see this as the first big flaw of this season. Sucks.

 

[Mister Jack]

Spoilers show up in thread previews on the mobile app if they're not tagged.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Strangelove]

Ahh ok. Makes sense.

[Mister Jack]

  On 6/6/2016 at 8:58 PM, deanb said:

 

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You mean like that time they let Rob build up an army, then just killed him and family? I agree unlikely to die just yet, I'm reckoning she's gonna somehow end up with Varys through one of his little birds.

 

It was a pretty dang good episode. This series in general is great. I quite liked seeing some of the aftermath of the War of Kings, especially with Robs side being destroyed n how that's shaken trust in the Starks. No doubt they'll take winterfell and that'll bring folks to their side, probably worry the Lannisters n Tyrells whose houses are faltering and they're focused on the High Sparrow at the door rather than rising King in the North.

 

I like the chess pieces moving to bring the Ironborn mutineers to Danerys just as she's wanting a bunch of ships.

 

 

 

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In Robb's case the Red Wedding was definitely a shocking turn, but it also had consequences that affected the entire setting and storyline for the rest of the series. In Arya's case she's just out on her own and most people don't even know that she's alive. If she dies now then, well, that's pretty much it. Nothing will change as a result.

 

[deanb]

Remember to not make the mistake that this is a show that follows regular tropes, especially on plot armour.

 

...also be aware that we're now out of books too which have marked how the plot goes for most part the last 5 series, and now we're in a "tv writers making shit up all Fullmetal Alchemist style n hoping they're sorta close to mark".

[Mr. GOH!]

Arya:

 

 

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My guess (based on reading about this theory elsewhere) is that the it was Jaqen H'Ghar who was stabbed by the waif and not Arya. Remember way back in season 3 when Jaqen told Arya he owed her three deaths, she collected on two and then chose him for the third? but he just helped her escape instead of killing himself? Jaqen deliberately disguised himself as Arya and went around Braavos looking for passage in the most obvious way possible to draw the waif's attention. Notice how Arya has changed her hair and clothes and is not carrying Needle. Wen we last saw her, she was dressed differently, acting very furtively, and had her hair in the two knots. The Arya in this past episode had her hair down (like Jaqen's), wore louder clothing, and acted like she had nothing to fear. Arya knows the Faceless Men will come after her; it makes no sense that she would waltz around Braavos as if she were invincible. It also makes sense that Jaqen, knowing he would take the death, would tell the waif to make it painless. In short, Arya was not in the latest episode.

 

Also, hooray for Septon Swearengen and Sandor Clegane's return!

 

 

I really liked this past episode.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Mr. GOH!

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, my sister was complaining about

 

 

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in the Hodor episode, how the wolf just dies randomly and without accomplishing anything.  She said it didn't seem like something GRM would have written.  I said that seems exactly like something he would have written.

 

[Strangelove]

  On 6/7/2016 at 12:14 PM, Mr. GOH! said:

Arya:

 

 

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My guess (based on reading about this theory elsewhere) is that the it was Jaqen H'Ghar who was stabbed by the waif and not Arya. Remember way back in season 3 when Jaqen told Arya he owed her three deaths, she collected on two and then chose him for the third? but he just helped her escape instead of killing himself? Jaqen deliberately disguised himself as Arya and went around Braavos looking for passage in the most obvious way possible to draw the waif's attention. Notice how Arya has changed her hair and clothes and is not carrying Needle. Wen we last saw her, she was dressed differently, acting very furtively, and had her hair in the two knots. The Arya in this past episode had her hair down (like Jaqen's), wore louder clothing, and acted like she had nothing to fear. Arya knows the Faceless Men will come after her; it makes no sense that she would waltz around Braavos as if she were invincible. It also makes sense that Jaqen, knowing he would take the death, would tell the waif to make it painless. In short, Arya was not in the latest episode.

 

Also, hooray for Septon Swearengen and Sandor Clegane's return!

 

 

I really liked this past episode.

That's what I'm assuming as well. I just think it's shitty to hold off on that reveal til the next episode. They should have revealed it at the end of the same episode to not be so tryhard shocktastic. It's just so incredibly obvious that I find no value in it. Just get on with it.

It's not much different than the end of last season with Jon. We all knew what was going to happen. Nothing shocking about it.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Strangelove

[Strangelove]

  On 6/7/2016 at 10:10 AM, deanb said:

Remember to not make the mistake that this is a show that follows regular tropes, especially on plot armour.

 

...also be aware that we're now out of books too which have marked how the plot goes for most part the last 5 series, and now we're in a "tv writers making shit up all Fullmetal Alchemist style n hoping they're sorta close to mark".

The show runners have actually been told all the major plot points of the books. They already know how it'll end. They're still following a guideline but making up things to fill all the missing pieces. I think they've mostly done a good job.

[Hot Heart]

  On 6/7/2016 at 12:14 PM, Mr. GOH! said:

Arya:

 

 

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My guess (based on reading about this theory elsewhere) is that the it was Jaqen H'Ghar who was stabbed by the waif and not Arya. Remember way back in season 3 when Jaqen told Arya he owed her three deaths, she collected on two and then chose him for the third? but he just helped her escape instead of killing himself? Jaqen deliberately disguised himself as Arya and went around Braavos looking for passage in the most obvious way possible to draw the waif's attention. Notice how Arya has changed her hair and clothes and is not carrying Needle. Wen we last saw her, she was dressed differently, acting very furtively, and had her hair in the two knots. The Arya in this past episode had her hair down (like Jaqen's), wore louder clothing, and acted like she had nothing to fear. Arya knows the Faceless Men will come after her; it makes no sense that she would waltz around Braavos as if she were invincible. It also makes sense that Jaqen, knowing he would take the death, would tell the waif to make it painless. In short, Arya was not in the latest episode.

 

Also, hooray for Septon Swearengen and Sandor Clegane's return!

 

 

I really liked this past episode.

 

I'd like that to be true, and it's some good observations but then...

 

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if that were the case, it feels like they'd go the whole hog and not include the bit with Arya surfacing and then looking worried at all the faces watching her.

 

Then again, savvy audiences are probably wise to what follows anyway since we've probably seen it enough times where people fall into water to assume they're dead when they aren't.

 

 

It must be interesting for book-readers since whatever the show decides is "vital" must then influence their own theorising, which also might "spoil" other resolutions for other situations/characters in the books that are actually slightly different. If that makes sense...

[deanb]

I saw something on FB earlier today that I was like "wow spoilers much?" but turns out it cropped up on feed cos friend-of-a-friends grandmother did a bit of stabby action on latest episode of GoT. She seems such a sweet old woman otherwise. So I guess that's cool.

[Mr. GOH!]

HotHeart:

 

 

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To make Arya's apparent death as public as possible, or so the argument goes.

 

[Mal]

 

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HYPE IS OVER