Game of Thrones (Current episode spoilers)

[deanb]

I'd need to rewatch but is it just Dothraki on the boats? Assumedly they'd maybe compose of 80% tops of a ships crew?

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, I figured the Dothraki would pretty much be passengers, and the ships would be being sailed by people who know what the fuck they're doing.

[Mister Jack]

I thought Daenerys said the dothraki weren't going? Did I mishear her?

[deanb]

The Second Son aren't going, they're staying to hold "Bay of Dragons". The army she's using will be Unsullied, Dothraki, Greyjoys, Martell, Tyrell and a few dragons.

[FredEffinChopin]

I don't think it's important, and think the show would be worse if it were explained.

 

I can't imagine how it could possibly make the show worse to have an explanation of one of the major two skillsets that Arya has incorporated into her repertoire. For me I can say that it's coming off as a really hard sell, as some other elements of this season were for Arya, which is a nagging distraction, which makes it worse. Kind of like spending a season and a half watching her ride around on horses with Sandor, and then taking 45 seconds to go "and then she became a blind warrior." At least they had the decency to show us some sort of montage that lets us know that this is something she achieved through training and hard work (and abuse with a stick). An equivalent for this even greater skill than armed combat doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Her witnessing a ritual or technique that we see off-camera at very least, so we know how she came into this ability. Unless I'm forgetting something, we've only seen Jaqen talk about how she should never try to do it, far from showing her anything. If it's magic, what did she do, figure it out? Spy? 

 

 

I agree with Ethan, the mechanics of face changing don't bother me in the least. It's some sort of sorcery. Perhaps the faces ...

 

Ok, but that second sentence that you began immediately contradicts the certainty of your assertion that it's only (?) some form of sorcery. In other words we do not know that because we were not told anything.

[TheMightyEthan]

I don't think it's something that needs explained, so I think an explanation (or at least one more complicated than "it is a gift given us by the many-faced god" which is effectively what Sexy Jesus said about it) would make the show worse because it's narratively unnecessary. It's related to the idea of Chekhov's gun: everything in a show needs to be there for a reason, and there's no reason to need an explanation.

[deanb]

It sorta comes into the whole region of:

- Why doesn't Daenyrsseus not burn when in fire?

- How come that guy came back from the dead after having his shoulder hacked in half

- How come the Iron Lords don't stay drowned?

- How did Jon come back after having all those holes in him

- How did Melisandre birth a shadow demon thing that killed Renly

- How come Whitewalkers shatter when hit with dragonstone or valyrian steel?

- How come Bran can seemingly time travel of sorts.

 

In a fantasy setting "magic" is a perfectly acceptable reasoning. Given the fact that most of the above are in some way attributed to at least one of many gods it would somewhat dull it a bit to say "yeah it's totally specific god(s) doing this" would ruin shit up, same as if it was to happen IRL.

 

 

Oh had a thought while writing above:

 

Jons lineage can theoretically be proven by the Targaryean ability of not being burnt by fire.

 

[Mr. GOH!]

The Ironborn do sometimes stay drowned. They're not considered worthy if they die. I was under the impression GRRM and they show don't show this as magic, just pure luck. I *think* in the books the Salt Priests perform medieval CPR on folks who drown themselves for the Drowned God, but I could be wrong.

 

But, yeah, Arya's face-shifting just does not bother me much. I wish I knew the mechanics of it, but it's not that important to me. If anything, I think it means that Ja'qen was full of shit when he told Arya that trying to use the faces would hurt her. She already survived poisoning that would kill other folks. Maybe the Many Faced God really digs Arya and lets her do what she wants, including stealing faces from the House of Black and White to use on her murder spree across Westeros.

[FredEffinChopin]

It sorta comes into the whole region of:

- Why doesn't Daenyrsseus not burn when in fire?

- How come that guy came back from the dead after having his shoulder hacked in half

- How come the Iron Lords don't stay drowned?

- How did Jon come back after having all those holes in him

- How did Melisandre birth a shadow demon thing that killed Renly

- How come Whitewalkers shatter when hit with dragonstone or valyrian steel?

- How come Bran can seemingly time travel of sorts.

 

In a fantasy setting "magic" is a perfectly acceptable reasoning.

 

 

Then give me a basis for that (or any other) reasoning. Not you, the show. The show has not offered me that. On the contrary, all of the clues provided seem to lean more towards this being a cultivated technique rather than some sort of incantation or ritual (just as several of the clues also indicate that there is likely no belief in a mystical "Many-faced God" that the faceless order worships, only clients that tell them who to kill). At the very least a physical component seems to be involved, as they appear to take a great deal of time and care in the removal of faces from corpses. I can accept any combination of possibilities, but as of now I've  only been shown that Arya hung around the House of Black and White for a while, and that now she can employ this highly exclusive technique whenever she feels like it without ever being taught how to do so.

 

I'm not demanding an instruction manual for how to wear faces over here, though I would welcome it, and don't feel like it could possibly hurt the story. Being that one of the central characters, who we have followed intimately throughout the series, learned a mysterious technique that (as far as we know) was not taught to her directly while she was under the tutelage of the only people who know how to do it, I would appreciate some small explanation of how that went down. As I said earlier, even a 10 second shot of her witnessing some sort of vaguely depicted event would at least keep me at bay for a while if not shut me up altogether. Then I could say "Ok, it's a magic ritual that uses faces of the dead, and she learned it right under their noses by being sneaky." As it stands, since Arya is done with the Bravos leg of her arc, it just seems like there is some possibility that the Faceless order's defining skill is one that wasn't given very much consideration, and is just being swept under the rug once it's purpose is served because it would be awkward to deal with. 

 

Also this is not like those examples. Half of those amount to the question of the existence of the Lord of Light, which I personally believe will be addressed in some way or other by the end of the story, along with questions about the relationship between the Targaryens and dragons/fire, the relationship between the WW/zombies and dragonglass/obsidian, and the nature of the Three-Eyed Raven. I don't necessarily expect a detailed metaphysical explanation of any of it, but those are all core questions that the narrative proposes for the viewer, and that we can reasonably expect to be involved in the endgame.

 

I'm not in Season 2 demanding an explanation of where the Whitewalkers came from. I'm not asking how the House of the Undying dude was able to make duplicates of himself either. It's one of the main characters undergoing an incredibly significant change with no explanation offered while we seem to know every other detail of her circumstances.  Perhaps this explanation will present itself at a later time also, or at very least the reason for avoiding the details I'm asking about might become apparent when other events play out later. Maybe there will be a flashback. If that happens then it will make sense, and my skepticism will vanish. It's not sitting right at the moment though.

[Mister Jack]

[Thursday Next]

 

It sorta comes into the whole region of:

- Why doesn't Daenyrsseus not burn when in fire?

- How come that guy came back from the dead after having his shoulder hacked in half

- How come the Iron Lords don't stay drowned?

- How did Jon come back after having all those holes in him

- How did Melisandre birth a shadow demon thing that killed Renly

- How come Whitewalkers shatter when hit with dragonstone or valyrian steel?

- How come Bran can seemingly time travel of sorts.

 

In a fantasy setting "magic" is a perfectly acceptable reasoning.

 

 

Then give me a basis for that (or any other) reasoning. Not you, the show. The show has not offered me that. On the contrary, all of the clues provided seem to lean more towards this being a cultivated technique rather than some sort of incantation or ritual (just as several of the clues also indicate that there is likely no belief in a mystical "Many-faced God" that the faceless order worships, only clients that tell them who to kill). At the very least a physical component seems to be involved, as they appear to take a great deal of time and care in the removal of faces from corpses. I can accept any combination of possibilities, but as of now I've  only been shown that Arya hung around the House of Black and White for a while, and that now she can employ this highly exclusive technique whenever she feels like it without ever being taught how to do so.

 

I'm not demanding an instruction manual for how to wear faces over here, though I would welcome it, and don't feel like it could possibly hurt the story. Being that one of the central characters, who we have followed intimately throughout the series, learned a mysterious technique that (as far as we know) was not taught to her directly while she was under the tutelage of the only people who know how to do it, I would appreciate some small explanation of how that went down. As I said earlier, even a 10 second shot of her witnessing some sort of vaguely depicted event would at least keep me at bay for a while if not shut me up altogether. Then I could say "Ok, it's a magic ritual that uses faces of the dead, and she learned it right under their noses by being sneaky." As it stands, since Arya is done with the Bravos leg of her arc, it just seems like there is some possibility that the Faceless order's defining skill is one that wasn't given very much consideration, and is just being swept under the rug once it's purpose is served because it would be awkward to deal with. 

 

Also this is not like those examples. Half of those amount to the question of the existence of the Lord of Light, which I personally believe will be addressed in some way or other by the end of the story, along with questions about the relationship between the Targaryens and dragons/fire, the relationship between the WW/zombies and dragonglass/obsidian, and the nature of the Three-Eyed Raven. I don't necessarily expect a detailed metaphysical explanation of any of it, but those are all core questions that the narrative proposes for the viewer, and that we can reasonably expect to be involved in the endgame.

 

I'm not in Season 2 demanding an explanation of where the Whitewalkers came from. I'm not asking how the House of the Undying dude was able to make duplicates of himself either. It's one of the main characters undergoing an incredibly significant change with no explanation offered while we seem to know every other detail of her circumstances.  Perhaps this explanation will present itself at a later time also, or at very least the reason for avoiding the details I'm asking about might become apparent when other events play out later. Maybe there will be a flashback. If that happens then it will make sense, and my skepticism will vanish. It's not sitting right at the moment though.

 

 

I find this utterly bizarre. We know that GoT does magic. We know that faceless men can change their face through some sort of boojum. We know that Arya has spent a considerable amount of time training with them. We know that she has helped with the face removals. We can assume that she was taught face swapping at some point because she was given a mission to murder someone but she went off piste to shank Meryn Fucking Trant and Sexy Jesus knew all about it and was sort of not really ok with it.

 

I don't get why you need to see something to get your immersion back. I prefer the element of mystery about it.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think the hall of masks is a reference. It would be inconvenient to be caught with a bag full of faces.

[Mal]

While I'm not too bothered by it since the show has apparent people on speed boats and Sexy Jesus has said Arya has many gifts but you'd think face swapping be the last thing to teach someone. The only hint of it being learn-able prior to full membership was when the Waifinator used it in that shitty scene in that rather poor episode. With the finale, Arya just uses it. Having Arya learn it off screen is fine but without mention (besides the Waifinator hint) is kind of iffy.

Edit: It should be mentioned that Arya is helped with putting on a new face in the books by the (normal) Waif. So it is learn-able before full membership. Then again the whole Braavos arc haven't played out how it is in the show.

 

I need the next book or maybe I should go on a re-read.

Edited June 30, 2016 by MaliciousH

[Thursday Next]

Arya used the face swap on Meryn Trant in season 5. She used it before the finale, why is everyone acting like the finale is the first time she did it?!?!

[Mal]

I kind of forgot about season five. My viewing of the latter seasons (e.g., idk what happened in Dorne) are spotty at best. It also doesn't help that events from the show and books are different. Remembering the similar story and lore is tough... So disregard, I suck.

 

And if you guys haven't, you should rewatch season 1 or so. The tone of the show is so different. It's as expected but seeing it is quite something.

Edited June 30, 2016 by MaliciousH

[danielpholt]

Think I'm going to redo the entire series before the beginning of the final season, and I'm planning on making some fake email address up so I can dive back into the books....in audio form (fuck reading A Fast For Crows again) before the new book hits.

 

I spent my entire shift at work listening to that incredible bit of music that played over the top of the the start of the last episode. It really is magnificent.

[TheMightyEthan]

Why do you need a fake email to get the audio books?

[deanb]

I imagine cos Audible give away one free audiobook with a new account. Fake email means free audiobooks I guess, but at that point you may as well pirate them for the same result n half the effort.

[TheMightyEthan]

Oh had a thought while writing above:

 

Jons lineage can theoretically be proven by the Targaryean ability of not being burnt by fire.

 

Is that a general Targaryean ability?

[deanb]

I dunno, we've not seen any Targaryeans in the army yet.

[Mr. GOH!]

GRRM has said no, the Targaryens are not immune to fire in general. Many have died by fire, some while trying to get dragon eggs to hatch. Dany's invulnerability when she burned Khal Drogo was a one-time magic event in the books, at least.

 

And even if Dany is immune to fire in the show, that's not necessarily true for Jon. I mean, Viserys did not seem immune to heat at all.

 

Also, Jon burnt himself when he attacked the wight back in season 1, I believe. In the books, the burn pains him for a long time.

[FredEffinChopin]

"We know that faceless men can change their face through some sort of boojum."

 

This literally means nothing. You're telling me that we know something but that we don't know what it is (aka we don't know it), and wondering why I can't just accept that. 

 

"We can assume that she was taught face swapping at some point because she was given a mission to murder someone"
"The more I think about it, the more I think the hall of masks is a reference. It would be inconvenient to be caught with a bag full of faces."

 

No, we absolutely cannot assume that based on what we were shown, which is a major part of the problem I'm having. She was told that she was NOT supposed to take a face from the well. She was told that when she came back from taking a face and killing Merryn Trant, and we (and her) were led to believe that that is why she was made temporarily blind by Jaquen. That same scene that shows us that she had to return a physical face to the wall, which suggests that she needed the physical face to perform the feat, which suggests that there may or may not be "boojum" involved, since they have said nothing at all to us about it, but that there is almost certainly a physical component involved.

 

All of these assumptions that you guys can't seem to understand me not having reached just don't make any sense. Maybe another theory that presents itself will, and that will be dandy. I don't think my message board pals should be left the task of explaining things like that though. I feel like it's the show's responsibility. I love these discussions, but if you can imagine a reason for why something strange happened in the show, especially if you have to stretch to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean the show did its job. 

 

"I don't get why you need to see something to get your immersion back. I prefer the element of mystery about it."

 

I don't. I didn't say a word about immersion, partly because I can't stand the word and avoid it, but mostly because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. My complaint is about a major change in a character that we've been following closely that hasn't been explained at all. My concern isn't that I'm no longer able to buy the idea of magic in a fantasy setting. My concern is that it's starting to seem like a poorly thought out plot element that's now being swept under the rug because it would be difficult to try to convince people that, even in this fantasy setting, people can cut the skin off of peoples' faces and wear it convincingly. 

 

"Arya used the face swap on Meryn Trant in season 5. She used it before the finale, why is everyone acting like the finale is the first time she did it?!?!"

 

It's just me. We're talking about me. I'm not acting like it's the first time. I believe my first post about this said something along the lines of it now being past the point by which we should have an explanation. We first saw her do it in a season finale, in a dramatic reveal as she killed Trant. I wasn't expecting the show to drop everything and tell me how at that point. It's a full season later though, and it seems like we're past the point where any of that is going to be explained (unless it's being intentionally hidden to serve a purpose later, which, as I said earlier, would ease my concerns about it). The only clues offered up to this point indicate a process that at very least involves the removal of a corpse's face skin that someone else then dons and wears so well that it looks natural. That alone seems ridiculous to me.

[danielpholt]

Is it not possible that the writers have boxed themselves into a hole with the entire thing and decided instead of spending time trying to climb out of that hole they'd just ignore it and hope it goes away?

 

Like Dorne.

[FredEffinChopin]

Is it not possible that the writers have boxed themselves into a hole with the entire thing and decided instead of spending time trying to climb out of that hole they'd just ignore it and hope it goes away?

 

Like Dorne.

 

That is exactly what I'm getting at. Or getting at me being concerned about, rather.

[danielpholt]

I think a bigger problem is how much time the writers devoted to her plot this season. She's come exactly nowhere from the girl we saw murder Trant at the end of the last season. Sure the street-play stuff was fun, but her character has been spinning her wheels for a while now, seemingly for no reason.

 

The show is attached to her in the same way they are Dany and Jon and Jaime. Even when the plot isn't there we're forced to check in on them seemingly every episode. I understand this, her character is popular and I can only assume they believe that cutting her screen time back would have a negative impact on the show's viewer-ship. Not sure I agree with that sentiment but I understand it. 

 

So yeah, the real problem here is how much time they've given a character who's basically had nothing to do for the past year. 

 

Also Arya isn't the hero the viewer-ship believes her to be. I can't understand why I keep seeing 'Fucking Yes Arya' on social media. The girl is at the very best broken. She's gone from wanting revenge for her fallen family to actively enjoying the taking of ones life. That's the angle I hope the show goes down next season, less wishy washy hand waving and more character beats about what Arya has become, or is about to become.

[Thursday Next]

Can we please not do the line by line deconstruction thing? I find it rude.

 

My point is that the face thing is obviously done by "some kind of magic", since they clearly aren't wearing actual masks a la Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I don't get why it matters to you which kind of magic it is exactly or that we see how Arya learns it. It's a kind of magic, it's done routinely in the place Arya has spent 2 seasons, she's even helped with the prep of the faces.

 

We didn't see Arya learning to use a bow, but she made Bran look like chump with one in Episode 1, it's reasonable to assume that she picked up the skill hanging out in the castle where lots of people learn to work a bow even though Westerosi Ladies wouldn't normally get involved in that stuff, we don't need a scene where someone says "Oh look, there is Arya firing an arrow. I remember her learning to shoot the arrows with Bob Fletcher." we can just make the leap that she's a bit of a Tom boy and obviously got someone to help her practice or just practiced herself after watching other people.

 

I could understand the strength of feeling if we left scared little Arya after Ned's beheading then jumped straight to stone cold killer master assassin Arya pulling off her face at the Twins with nothing in between, I could totally see that being a cause for "who the hell is this person, what the heck happened to her?" but it's taken six seasons to get here.

 

I just think that it is odd as the mechanics of face changing don't bother me any more than knowing exactly How a dragon breathes fire: I mean what's the ignition source? Is it just a chemical reaction? Is it the same substance as wildfire? If so why isn't it more green?; How Dany can get Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal to torch one particular ship just by saying "Dracarys"? Is it warging, mind control, telepathy, instinct?; or how Wights wake up, I mean they don't have obsidian daggers in them, and it seems they can operate either side of the wall.

 

It's all just boffo. It doesn't matter to me how it works, it just does.

 

All that said, you're not wrong for not liking it, or for having a problem with it, or feeling it spoils your suspension of disbelief or whatever. That's your personal take on it and I'm sure you aren't alone. I'd be interested to know more about how face changing works, but it doesn't piss me off remotely as much as it seems to do with you.