Wii U

[deanb]

Well I'm not much care for All-Stars but there's still other stuff there. Other franchises. But with Nintendo I think maybe many fans want to see what they can put their magic too, some new titles n characters to add to the roost. Old faces are nice to see, but ..they're old. Problem with continually dusting off old franchises for a new outing decade after decade is if the franchise/character didn't appeal the first time it's unlikely to work the...18th time. Bring something new out, if only to build up the Smash Bros roster. Their last new franchise was over 6 years ago with the "Wii/Mii" range. And before that...best I can tell Pikmin in '01. Two franchises a decade, that's...terrible.

 

That's why there's a "That's it?" reaction to the Nintendo conference. You've got WiiFit U, Nintendoland with the aginig Miis, another Pikmin and a Mario game...but you get lots and lots of gold coins. Then you've got Ubisoft show off Watch_dogs n everyone is like "woooh!!". Nintendo had a new console n still got a lacklustre reception. Putting the word "New" in the title..eg "New Super Mario Bros" doesn't make it new. "We called it Mario Kart 7 cos it's the seventh Mario Kart". They have a creative problem. Game developers block. I'd like to see them snap out of it cos Nintendo are clearly able to make some pretty neat franchises, and I (and I imagine many others) would like to care but Mario has somewhat limited appeal the 58th time he's trotted out on stage with a bit of febreeze sprayed on and Chuck Testa brought in as a "just in case".

[TheMightyEthan]

I wanted a new 3D Mario game. I really couldn't care less about NSMB.

 

I did think of a newer franchise than Pikmin that they have yesterday while I was driving home, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was...

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

Your comment about only 2 new franchises in a decade is very far off the mark. By my count:

• Pikmin
  
• Advance/Battalion Wars
  
• Animal Crossing
  
• Geist
  
• Odama
  
• Chibi-Robo
  
• WarioWare
  
• Nintendogs
  
• Electroplankton
  
• Brain Age
  
• Elite Beat Agents
  
• Rhythm Heaven
  
• Professor Layton (? May be level-5's property)
  
• Steel Diver
  
• Wii/Miis
  
• Endless Ocean
  
• Disaster: Day of Crisis
  
• Captain Rainbow
  
• FlingSmash
  
• Pandora's Tower
  

Note I did not count many titles Nintendo funded and published if I was unsure about their owning the IP or not. And this also does not count franchise revivals/spin-offs that could be considered new or reinvented IPs (Strikers, Prime, Kid Icarus, etc.) So yeah, many of these IPs may not resonate with the demographics of these boards or other gamer-focused forums on the internet. But Nintendo is inventing new IPs and new stuff all the time. If you don't like it, fine, but it's there.

[deanb]

Sorry when I was saying Nintendo had come up with 2 new franchises a decade I meant..Nintendo had come up with two new frnachises in a decade. I'm only on a dinky netbook so I couldn't check em all but most of the games you listed aren't Nintendo made titles. I'll give you Nintendogs though, guess I forgot on that one. (I'd already mentioned Pikmin n Wii/Miis), Sure it makes for an impressive list but when talking about Microsoft franchises no one lists off Mass Effect.

[TheMightyEthan]

Animal Crossing is the one I thought of!

 

Advance/Battalion Wars is actually part of the Nintendo (Famicom) Wars series, which started in 1988.

 

Wario Ware doesn't count because it's part of the Mario franchise.

[TCP]

I don't know if that counts. I mean, Wario Ware really has nothing to do with Mario outside of the Wario character. That's like saying Super Mario and Mario Kart are the same franchise.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

WarioWare is basically its own franchise. Other than Wario, almost entirely new characters, art style, gameplay.

 

The relationship between BioWare and Microsoft in regards to Mass Effect is entirely different than Nintendo's relationship to most of these developers. Often these are second party teams, IPs Nintendo actually helped fund, conceive of, and in fact owns. Steel Diver was made directly by Nintendo in-house, as were Nintendogs, the Big Brain and Brain Age series, Rhythm Heaven. I've updated my list below with the clearly first-party stuff in bold:

• Pikmin (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Advance/Battalion Wars (Intelligent, owned by Nintendo)
  
• Animal Crossing (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Geist (n-Space, IP owned by Nintendo)
  
• Odama (Vivarium, third party)
  
• Chibi-Robo (Skip LTD & Nintendo)
  
• WarioWare (Intelligent, owned by Nintendo)
  
• Nintendogs (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Electroplankton (Indies zero, unclear ownership)
  
• Brain Age (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Big Brain (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Elite Beat Agents (iNiS, third party)
  
• Rhythm Heaven (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Professor Layton (level-5. unclear ownership)
  
• Steel Diver (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Wii/Miis (Nintendo EAD)
  
• Endless Ocean (Arika, third party)
  
• Disaster: Day of Crisis (Monolith Soft, Nintendo subsidiary [forgot about Baten Kaitos also])
  
• Captain Rainbow (Skip LTD, third party)
  
• FlingSmash (Artoon, third party)
  
• Pandora's Tower (Ganbarion, third party)
  

So even if you get picky about what you count as a Nintendo IP, to suggest they've only made 2 new IPs in 10 years is simply disingenuous. I've also got to add that I don't particularly care if Nintendo ever makes a new IP again. So long as the gameplay is fresh, I do not care whether they make a (usually smart) business decision to paste Mario or Kirby or Donkey Kong on the cover.

[TheMightyEthan]

Advance/Battalion Wars is actually part of the Nintendo (Famicom) Wars series, which started in 1988.

 

 

@TCP: I probably would say that Super Mario and Mario Kart are the same franchise.

[deanb]

So half your list was third/second party titles then. And most of them are on the DS(coincidentally the one I own), but their seemingly flagship title for the Wii U is the Nintendoland, another in the Mii series of games that is once again a string of mini-games bundled together. New console it's usually nice to see a nice new big shot IP to go with it.

They've raked in a ton of cash from Wii n DS sales (though are sliding a bit of late, to be expected EOL) just go crazy, throw some cash at a bright young team in their E&D studios n see what they come up with. What about a tycoon sim? Don't think they've got one of those. A non-Zelda RPG, A point n click adventure. Just make a stipulation not to dig through the Nintendo back lot n make a new game then throw in Mario or something. Mickey is a popular and highly recognisable character, Disney didn't stick him in most of their films.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

Yeah, I do agree with you there. We all know the fantastic things Nintendo is capable of, and it would be awesome to see it applied a little more towards something new and exciting.

[FMW]

So here's the interesting thing about the Wii U launch - Nintendo looks like they're honestly shooting for audiences both "broader and deeper" just like they talked about during the initial device reveal. The target market for this device is, quite simply, everyone. Nintendo's three announced first party retail titles for the system demonstrate this. We've got:

 

Pikmin 3: Definitely a hardcore game, and one that's been requested for years by enthusiasts

Wii Fit U: Definitely an expanded audience game, building on the 43 million units of Wii Fit sold last console generation

New Super Mario Bros U: If sales of NSMB and NSMB Wii are anything to go by, this game appeals to both audiences. It's scary how well the NSMB brand has been selling.

 

So basically we have a casual game, a hardcore game, and an everyone game. Pretty much exactly what Nintendo promised. The problem? By chasing both rabbits, neither is totally locked down. If Wii Fit U was replaced with, say, Golden Sun 4, then we would have a fairly compelling set of titles for enthusiast gamers at launch. And if Pikmin 3 was replaced with, say, Wii U Sports, then there would be plenty of reason for blue ocean buyers to jump on the bandwagon. As is? Neither group necessarily has enough reason to invest in the hardware.

 

But this is where third parties normally step in, no? It's ever been the failing of Nintendo hardware that they succeed or fail on the strength of first party software support, so it's gotten to the point where the rest of the software lineup is being, by and large, ignored. Ubisoft is offering Just Dance and a fitness game for the casual crowd (read: normal people) and they also have Rayman Legends (which is gonna be amazing) for enthusiasts. I don't think anyone is too excited about Batman or Mass Effect this long after their initial launches, but whatever - those are the kind of games that will get picked up by parents as Christmas gifts. Other significant third party contributions for the enthusiast gamer include ZombiU and whatever on earth that goofy Platinum Games project is.

 

I think that, taken as a whole and including third party contributions, the Wii U looks pretty okay as far as it's launch window having software for all sorts. Nothing earth shaking, but there's something for everyone announced I think.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think Nintendo's making a mistake by chasing the casual audience again. I really don't see how Nintendo's going to overcome the "but I already have a Wii" view.

[FMW]

And I think Nintendo's making a mistake by chasing the enthusiast audience again. But they're committed to shooting for both now, so whatever. We'll see how it plays out.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think the only mistake they're making wrt the enthusiast market is that they're half-assing it. It really isn't hard to get enthusiasts to buy your hardware, you just have to have the "core" games to justify it. If Nintendo had announced Pikmin 3, a new 3D Mario, and Smash Bros in the launch window I think they'd have the core locked up. Zelda would also be nice, but I realize that's unrealistic with how recently Skyward Sword released.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I have to disagree with that - the core crowd never considered mario galaxy a core game because it is not an fps/cover shooter and as much as many people liked pikmin I don't think it's a system seller to the mainstream market. I genuinely don't believe anyone but Nintendo fans and casuals will buy a Nintendo console for the foreseeable future and I don't know what they can do to change that.

 

People who play sports games and COD will move on to PS4/nextbox possibly from one brand to the other, but it is indelibly in their minds that NIntendo is a "kiddy console" and would not even enter their consideration.

 

With Zelda they haven't even got to the conceptualisation stage yet they are still thinking what sort of game they want it to be, with regard to the balance between depth and accessibility. I'd say it's at least three probably more like 4 or 5 years. away.

[TheMightyEthan]

I don't think the people who refuse to play Mario because it's not a cover shooter are "the core". I agree you're never going to get them to buy anything other than PSXboxes, but they're not who I was talking about. I was talking about the enthusiasts, the kind of people who visit this forum and read gaming blogs. I don't think those kind of people have any illusions about Mario not being a serious game.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I just think the FPS/sport/Nintendo is for kids market is by far the largest segment, certainly the one that spends most overall, if not as much as per 'enthusiast gamer' individually. It is certainly the target market when companies are talking about the core gamer. Perhaps mainstream gamer is a better term than core gamer for these people. I don;t think they will come to nintendo in any big way with the Wii U

 

With regard to the enthusiast market, I think there are the people who will buy a nintendo console at/near launch regardless(me!) and others who will keep an eye on it without writing it off out of hand the way the core/mainstream gamers will. So for the enthusiast market the best nintendo can do is convince them to buy the console sooner rather than later. I don't think they've managed that with what they've announced so far.

 

I think mainstream gamers won't come until the console after Wii U at earliest/ if at all and the way to achieve that is to get the undecided enthusiasts on board with the Wii U ASAP which will hopefully encourage third parties to properly support it not just with great games, but with great games that are on the other systems. They need to be able to see the games they like are available on a nintendo console. Then when the next cycle comes around they need to have power parity with the other consoles. I don't know now if that's possible with the releases out of sync though.

[TheMightyEthan]

Mainstream I agree is a good term for those gamers.

 

The enthusiasts are the group that I think Nintendo is making a mistake by not sufficiently enticing. I'm definitely in the "interested but not quite sold" category. If they'd announced a 3D Mario I'd be sold (I'm already quite interested by Pikmin 3 and Scribblenauts and ZombiU). Basically I completely agree with everything in your third paragraph.

 

Tangentially related to this, I want a full-fledged Pokemon game on home console! I know it will never happen though.

[FredEffinChopin]

I don't normally try to speak for people, but I think I might be able to sum up at least a part Dean's criticism of Nintendo's library in recent years:

 

Wii doesn't seem to be especially capable of being the sole console in a "hardcore" gamer's living room. If one owns only a PS3, PC, or 360, one can spend every waking hour trying to pour through those libraries and still never make a dent in them. While the fact might not be much from a practical standpoint (we can't spend more hours gaming than there are hours in a day), it says something for the diversity of their offerings. Even the pickiest gamers shouldn't have dry spells that last too long when zeroing in on their next target. Sure, many of us own multiple consoles to experience the best of what each has to offer, but I'd wager most of us can live on either a 360, PC, or PS3 if we needed to. Can anyone say that for the Wii though? I'm sure some people can, maybe even some in here, but I think the individual who feels that way about it is a rare one among people whose main hobby is gaming, and who take it seriously.

 

We can name games that are exclusive to the Wii platform, but that's not that impressive once we realize that the vast majority of games must be exclusive since they dropped out of the hardware race, opting to bank on motion control being a more appealing feature to gamers (two separate but intertwined factors) instead, making them an isolated platform for developers. The fact of Nintendo developing anything in-house or through a purchased studio doesn't impress me either, as it seems like something they absolutely had to do if they didn't want a library that has many holes in it. Also I doubt Brain Age is of the same quality of their Marios and Star Foxes. Can someone argue the quality of some of the titles on Wii? Sure. But you have to do more than convince me that they have a selection that is up to par. Considering the (to me) frustrating interface that it doesn't let you drop for a second, the last-gen graphics, and the library that (size-wise) looks just adorable next to the bloated competition, one would have to convince me that these exclusive games on Wii are BETTER than what's being offered on the other side.

 

If I may be frank, Nintendo's current actions do nothing but speak for the validity of a lot of their criticism, even (and especially) as Reggie goes out there and makes a show of throwing up his hands in exasperated confusion. The Wii didn't have a library capable of supporting it. Or perhaps the base of Wii-owners are largely not the software purchasers Nintendo had hoped they would be. Probably some combination of those. The point is, having released alongside the PS3 and 1-year after 360, Nintendo is in the position of having to come out with a new console at least one year before the others. AND they're deciding to market it towards the people they keep denying they neglected, though it seems like it could potentially be mostly lip service, as they chase (or at very least leave the door wide open for) those casual sales that drove the Wii so fast initially. We all can sit here and debate the potency of the Nintendo brand all we like, or discuss whether or not they know what gamers want anymore, but there is a very real situation that's very hard to ignore.

 

For the record, I fall into the category of people who have not written the Wii-U off yet, though I'm not exactly excited for it. The tablet was a huge turnoff, but they kept me receptive when they showed off that traditional controller it will support. The fact that they are establishing and re-establishing relationships with 3rd party devs that have mostly worked on PC, MS, and Sony in recent years is promising as well. It seems like they're still kinda half-assing it with the hardware game though, which I believe is a good deal of what lost them so much ground this gen in the first place (in terms of gamer-interest I mean, not sales). Improved hardware is the science of video games that makes that realm a far more interesting place than it would be otherwise. It's not just about pixels and polygons, but about what types of games can be pulled off as hardware improves as well. Nintendo has shown little-to-no respect for that progression recently, between the Wii, 3DS, and potentially even the Wii-U. We'll see what happens.

 

Also, for the record, I'm not much of an FPS guy. I actually avoided them at all costs for a couple of years when it seemed like nothing but FPS were being released, though, I've steadily let the genre back into my rotation. I enjoy many genres, and if asked for a favorite I would name RPG. I just want to make it clear that I don't represent the chest-thumping COD crowd when I criticize Nintendo and give my approval of Sony and MS. I tried to hold on to Nintendo for as long as I could, but they eventually just lost me. Perhaps they felt like they were getting beaten in their own game and decided to play a different one. As someone who grew up in an era where Nintendo was virtually synonymous with "video game", it really sucked to see them lose me like that. And that's what Reggie and many others don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around. Gamers aren't the ones who changed our ways so much, Nintendo has. That's why many of us feel "abandoned" by them. I'm sure he and most at Nintendo are well aware of that though, he's just doing his job.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I get where you, Dean, and the others are coming from. If the Wii were the only system I owned, I would probably feel left out in the cold. But as a supplement to my PC, it's perfect and offers the least amount of overlap compared with owning a PS3/360, 360/PC, or PC/PS3. Sometimes, I want to kick back on the couch with old favorite franchises and co-op through a Donkey Kong or Mario with the kids, and the Wii lets me do that at an affordable price.

 

But does Nintendo need to step it up with the Wii U? Yes, primarily in garnering third-party support and hammering out both new franchises and strong entries in their existing core series. So namely, the library of games needs to be much stronger this time around to ensure success on the level of the Wii since lightning may not strike twice with the casuals. That is, it COULD sell very well to the same target demographic that the Wii did--or it could flop with the moms and pops. We just don't know at this point. I'm leaning towards it having some moderate success in that area, though iPads and the like may have gobbled up some of the potential buyers.

 

Still, speaking on a strictly personal level, I am satsified with the Wii's library. I have too much to play and not enough time to play it--I haven't even beaten Skyward Sword, Metroid Other M, A Boy and His Blob, Monster Hunter Tri, and several others from Christmas time. That's not to mention the games I haven't bought yet--Sin & Punishment, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Rayman Legends, The Last Story, and Xenoblade. There is a lot out there to play, provided you have another system for the big-time franchises that skipped the Wii. At the same time, I understand that a lot of gamers have more time to play and different purchasing habits than I do, and as such their gaming desires wouldn't be satiated by the Wii's library.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-wii-u-online-will-be-free-no-subscriptions-230360.phtml

It's nice to see that everyone isn't jumping into the Xbox Live Gold model.

[Alex Heat]

I'm still really hoping that Wii U opts for the PSN style subscription where you actually get shit out of it. But again, anything in the name of making Microsoft want to rethink their position on online play and features.

[Strangelove]

"I am not sure this is an appropriate expression, but video game consoles have long been "parasites" of TV sets at home. In other words, game consoles have used TV sets in a family instead of being equipped with their own screen. However, the Wii U will be the first console free from TV sets, in which you can play the Wii U while someone else is watching TV or you yourself can watch TV while using the Wii U."

 

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/120628qa/03.html

 

 

This was probably done with Japan in mind. God knows Americans(and probably Europeans) love to game on their big hdtv. It's nice to have the option I guess?

[Alex Heat]

Yeah, I can't figure out who that's trying to cater to.

 

I can't think of many, if any households that only seriously have one TV that isn't tiny, black and white and still has dials instead of buttons. That's sure what people act like in regards to anything that isn't their BEST TV. You know, if they're not acting like they only have one TV. In which case, they are probably the minority (when have we ever heard of homes with only one TV?).

[Strangelove]

I'm guessing Japan and their small living quarters. I havent looked up recent stuff from japan, but I assume they still live in really small places where something like Kinect wouldnt even really work because they dont have the space, right? So I assume they dont have tons of tvs.

Not to mention that handheld gaming over there is way more popular than it is here.

 

Its still all really weird to me though. At first I was confused, then negative, now im back to confused.