The greatest Controller of all time!

[WTF]

When it comes down to controllers in all honesty it is muscle memory. Whatever controller you've used first and what you've used the most in the past 10 years plays a role in that. That combined with the flexibility of your hands and wrists. Honestly it's right down to how dextrous you actually are.

 

Because of that it's a very personal thing. It's as personal as the way you hold a pen. The worst controllers however are rectangular and have sharp edges since that's just against human hands (our hands curve naturally, it's what caused the lines on your hands to form when you were a foetus).

[excel_excel]

Yep, the NES controller gave me.....NINTENDOITIS!!! It was a weird feeling at the base of the index finger facing the thumb.....anything rounded is so much better, anything that slips into the hands easily are the best controllers.

[Yantelope V2]

When it comes down to controllers in all honesty it is muscle memory. Whatever controller you've used first and what you've used the most in the past 10 years plays a role in that. That combined with the flexibility of your hands and wrists. Honestly it's right down to how dextrous you actually are.

 

Because of that it's a very personal thing. It's as personal as the way you hold a pen. The worst controllers however are rectangular and have sharp edges since that's just against human hands (our hands curve naturally, it's what caused the lines on your hands to form when you were a foetus).

 

I think that muscle memory is why people think they like the DS3 when really the XBox 360 is more ergonomic (aside from the battery tumor). I have been playing on so many different systems I don't fell married to one so maybe that's why I don't mind going to new controllers but I do think habit is why there are so many DS3 defenders despite it being outdated.

[fuchikoma]

Wait, you don't even like octogates? Also at the arcade you need to first identify what type of stick it is, and then from there know what you can do with it. So yes, you essentially do have to start over, but your skills end up being applied in the long run.

Skills for what though? I don't play in arcades - they don't even exist anymore. So I'd just be shelling out a lot of cash to make setup for fighting games cumbersome and wipe out 20 years of existing training to make me suck again.

 

I think that muscle memory is why people think they like the DS3 when really the XBox 360 is more ergonomic (aside from the battery tumor). I have been playing on so many different systems I don't fell married to one so maybe that's why I don't mind going to new controllers but I do think habit is why there are so many DS3 defenders despite it being outdated.

 

I think before making claims like that, you should at least have some kind of argument to back it up. A controller so big it fills the hands, domed buttons, and offset sticks are not more ergonomic (maybe if I hooked my thumbs under the controller, used my fingers to press the buttons and had 2 thumbs on my right hand...) Also, how is the DS3 outdated? It fit my hands perfectly 14 years ago, they haven't changed shape, and it has exactly the same buttons as the 360 controller. If anything, the latter is outdated because it uses big old AAs and doesn't have a rotation sensor. Really, neither are because they're for current systems and they don't remove features (beyond removing black and white buttons on the 360.)

 

If you play a game like DJ Max Portable, it'll become obvious why you'd want flatter, low-profile buttons and a controller you can float on your fingers without palming it. A bulky controller with tall buttons only hinders agility.

 

Besides, by your logic, wouldn't all these "DS3 defenders" also reject the Wii, DS and Vita since they're far more radically different than just a chunky version of the DualShock? I've used controllers since the standard was a numpad and joystick with buttons on the sides; I just prefer the DualShocks because they're more comfortable and in my hands, more effective. The 360 controllers aren't unusable like "The Duke," but they are a bit behind for general use in my experience (bad d-pad, twitchy sticks, etc)

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I don't play in arcades - they don't even exist anymore.

 

Maybe in your area. Anyways, local fighting scenes are full of people with sticks.

 

So I'd just be shelling out a lot of cash to make setup for fighting games cumbersome and wipe out 20 years of existing training to make me suck again.

 

Before you end up being better than ever. Also, sticks are cheap these days.

 

but I do think habit is why there are so many DS3 defenders despite it being outdated.

 

What does outdated have to do with good design? I used to own a 360. I had no problem with picking it up right away. Or taking that further, playing it at my friends house. This goes for any controller except for the Wii mote. All of them are designed well enough that if yuo're not a retard you can pick up and play any of them. I even had a 360 and a PS3 for a while and had no problem going back and forth. Hell, suddenly switching to/from inverted is a much bigger change in terms of getting used to something.

[madbassman39]

I even had a 360 and a PS3 for a while and had no problem going back and forth. Hell, suddenly switching to/from inverted is a much bigger change in terms of getting used to something.

 

My thoughts exactly. I do that all the time now, its really not a matter of one being uncomfortable or bad, its just one feels better in my hands than the other. The DS3 has qualities that are better than the 360 and vice versa. Ultimately I prefer one over the other, but I'm not unhappy with either one.

[Yantelope V2]

Wait, you don't even like octogates? Also at the arcade you need to first identify what type of stick it is, and then from there know what you can do with it. So yes, you essentially do have to start over, but your skills end up being applied in the long run.

Skills for what though? I don't play in arcades - they don't even exist anymore. So I'd just be shelling out a lot of cash to make setup for fighting games cumbersome and wipe out 20 years of existing training to make me suck again.

 

I think that muscle memory is why people think they like the DS3 when really the XBox 360 is more ergonomic (aside from the battery tumor). I have been playing on so many different systems I don't fell married to one so maybe that's why I don't mind going to new controllers but I do think habit is why there are so many DS3 defenders despite it being outdated.

 

I think before making claims like that, you should at least have some kind of argument to back it up. A controller so big it fills the hands, domed buttons, and offset sticks are not more ergonomic (maybe if I hooked my thumbs under the controller, used my fingers to press the buttons and had 2 thumbs on my right hand...) Also, how is the DS3 outdated? It fit my hands perfectly 14 years ago, they haven't changed shape, and it has exactly the same buttons as the 360 controller. If anything, the latter is outdated because it uses big old AAs and doesn't have a rotation sensor. Really, neither are because they're for current systems and they don't remove features (beyond removing black and white buttons on the 360.)

 

If you play a game like DJ Max Portable, it'll become obvious why you'd want flatter, low-profile buttons and a controller you can float on your fingers without palming it. A bulky controller with tall buttons only hinders agility.

 

Besides, by your logic, wouldn't all these "DS3 defenders" also reject the Wii, DS and Vita since they're far more radically different than just a chunky version of the DualShock? I've used controllers since the standard was a numpad and joystick with buttons on the sides; I just prefer the DualShocks because they're more comfortable and in my hands, more effective. The 360 controllers aren't unusable like "The Duke," but they are a bit behind for general use in my experience (bad d-pad, twitchy sticks, etc)

 

The DS3 was never designed for thumbsticks. Originally it had no thumbsticks.

 

The thumbsticks were a tacked on afterthought of the original PS controller and they're not in a great position because they were just an attempt to catch up to the N64.

 

The Xbox has the thumbstick and buttons in the comfortable position because in most games those are what you need direct access to. The triggers hold your finger and they don't slide off as easily and the convex shape of the DS3 sticks is just silly. My tumb isn't concave.

 

Even the grips are more comfortable than the DS3. The original PS grips were a bit harsh and narrow and they've become slightly softer and more round with each iteration of the DS but they're still not as comfortable or well shaped as the Xbox controller.

 

You'll also notice that the thumbstick and buttons are almost equidistant as are the d-pad and thumbstick on the xbox controller making it comfortable to shift back and forth. The tumbsticks fit closer to your hands than the buttons and D-pad on the PS3 and it makes you have to shift your grip or pam the sticks if you're going back and forth. Anther non-ergonmic feature.

[deanb]

The overall body of the (wired) 360 pad is nice to hold sure.

 

The layout kinda spoils it though. (And the tumor on the wireless version, both in cramping your fingers up and adding way too much weight)

 

Seen here is the symmetry of the dualshock, matching the symmetry of my hands. Note how my thumbs sprout from the bottom of my hand.

 

Note the awesome positioning of the 360 pad. Doesn't fuck with your thumbs one bit. No siree.

 

I agree with Fuchi on the action buttons too, they're stupidly bulbous, get in the way of moving your thumb around them. If you fingers are slipping may I suggest keeping your hands grease free (Which given the smooth plastic of the 360 triggers will be just as much an issue, if not more so).

 

(Sorry for image quality, had to sort of work around with using my netbooks webcam since I can't hold a controller and take photos at the same time with a normal camera. I'm also having to hold them upside-down, so maybe holding a bit tighter than I normally would so as not to drop them.)

[WTF]

To be fair while I agree with your and fuchi's sentiments I can understand how the changes come about. Honestly the 360 controller seems to be an evolution of the Nintendo controllers. In fact it's quite similar to the gamecube controller in some ways (body-wise not position-wise).

 

So while some people say the DS evolution is what caused the issue for some, the thing is it's honestly because no one teaches you how to hold a controller right or wrong. If you've been to progressive schools in the 70s and 80s (I guess most schools these days) they never expect you to hold your pen in any specific way and you just learn to in one way or the other. The hand adapts to what it believes is comfortable and then it gets stuck.

 

Personally I don't find either controller a massive pain though my preference is to the DualShock, the Megadrive 1 and the boomerang aero (I managed to get one during the PSX era) controllers. I'm not too keen on the controller system for the wii because I really would like to connect the special amalgam weird controller to the wii just like the gamecube controller does but instead it's supposed to go onto the wii remote which just feels weird and is a drain on the battery.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Dean, you hold the PS3 controller wrong. You're doing the palming thing like it's a 360 controller. Also, it pisses me off to no end that you're holding both like you're playing a FPS.

[deanb]

Dean, you hold the PS3 controller wrong. You're doing the palming thing like it's a 360 controller. Also, it pisses me off to no end that you're holding both like you're playing a FPS.

 

I'm also having to hold them upside-down, so maybe holding a bit tighter than I normally would so as not to drop them.

 

FPS/TPS/and or most action games, and most other genres I can think of actually. I guess maybe not old PS1 games that can't use the analogs (though that would still put your hand in a symmetrical form). Or menus of games too, though they account like 2% of game time (And still symmetrical)

[fuchikoma]

The DS3 was never designed for thumbsticks. Originally it had no thumbsticks.

The thumbsticks were a tacked on afterthought of the original PS controller and they're not in a great position because they were just an attempt to catch up to the N64.

Actually, that's not true. The original Playstation design (after the SNES) included a dual analog controller with longer handles, concave sticks, and a single force feedback motor. That is why you can plug a DualShock in with certain launch titles and still get weak force feedback.

I think the story goes that they pulled it out late in development because they were afraid of infringing Nintendo's patents - something that they later went ahead with anyway and have been in trouble multiple times with different companies for their controller design. (I think this is also why only Nintendo can use cross-shaped d-pads. Sad but true... so most use a disc and Sony uses 4 wedges even though they're all the same inside.)

The Xbox has the thumbstick and buttons in the comfortable position because in most games those are what you need direct access to. The triggers hold your finger and they don't slide off as easily and the convex shape of the DS3 sticks is just silly. My tumb isn't concave.

That's subjective. I find offset sticks weirder and less comfortable than symmetrical ones, wherever they're placed. The XBox layout is sort of like Nintendo's c-stick concept - except the c-stick was never meant for serious use! That's why they didn't put a wide top on it; it's for cameras and menus. That I think is the real habit based preference - because when you're using the same controls on both sides, what's the advantage of having one at the bottom and one at the top?

Convex/concave tops - it makes sense in theory that concave would be better since you could pull instead of push the stick, but since they came in in the mid 1990s, I've never had it make any difference since they're rubberized. My thumb's not concave either, but it is soft and becomes concave when I put it on the DS series stick. It's just a matter of whether the stick holds your thumb or the thumb holds the stick. The texture itself is a wash for me - I don't like feeling the dots on the 360 stick, but it's good to know what absolute UDLR are on it since only Nintendo gates the sticks. In any case, they're both capable of fine movement and I've never had a problem with slipping off any brand's thumbstick, even Mad Catz'.

The triggers on the DS3 I'm not crazy about. I prefer the DS2 for this even though they're not analog. I can use them, but they don't feel good. It also seems that the 360 has another 50% pull distance and nice flat resistance across the range. I'll give them the triggers - Sony tried too hard to stick to the old design there.

Even the grips are more comfortable than the DS3. The original PS grips were a bit harsh and narrow and they've become slightly softer and more round with each iteration of the DS but they're still not as comfortable or well shaped as the Xbox controller.

That depends how you hold them, but it's possible. The 360 is more comfortable if you grip it full-on with the palms of your hand, for sure. I'd even say that approach borders on suicidal with the DualShocks. I really don't like doing that with any controller though - it makes hand sweat badly obvious and reduces thumb mobility to switch between pad/buttons and sticks, or greatly increases strain when I do. It's possible not to hold the 360 that way, but it seems to strongly encourage it.

You hold a 360 controller a lot like a GameCube or XBox controller. You hold a DualShock series controller like NES, SMS, SNES, TG16, Genesis or Dreamcast controller or a GB/GBA/GBA SP/GG/Nomad/WS/PSP system - resting on fingers, with open palms. I find that far more comfortable. I cringe thinking about how my thumbs would feel after doing something

with a full-grip controller (or what my score would be using the 360's d-pad and domed buttons.)

You'll also notice that the thumbstick and buttons are almost equidistant as are the d-pad and thumbstick on the xbox controller making it comfortable to shift back and forth. The tumbsticks fit closer to your hands than the buttons and D-pad on the PS3 and it makes you have to shift your grip or pam the sticks if you're going back and forth. Anther non-ergonmic feature.

Though if you hold it like I do, it's way more comfortable to switch on DS because rather than using the tendons in my thumb to stretch over to the stick, I can just rotate my wrists a tiny bit and my thumb goes to the stick. I actually found for precision control, or even long play sessions, I can keep my thumb pretty much still and subtly twist the controller around to move the stick, which is a godsend if you have RSIs in your hands. Also not impossible on the 360, but the stiffer triggers make it harder to maintain such a loose grip.

 

Not quite sure how you mean the 360's inputs are equidistant and the PS3's aren't... On both, the right stick's right edge overlaps half the left button, and its top edge overlaps half the bottom button. Likewise, the PS3 d-pad and 360 left stick match their center axis to that of the buttons and their edge overlaps half the lower input (PS3 L stick, 360 d-pad.) The bottom inputs on both are the same distance apart - you can put the controllers face to face and they will line up almost perfectly. Actually, seeing this it seems MS was trying to make almost a carbon copy of the DualShocks when it comes to placement - they just swapped pad and stick like the Dreamcast and GameCube (though not the alpha XBox devkit, which is like a 6-button Dualshock / PS3 "boomerang.")

Edited March 7, 2012 by fuchikoma

[Yantelope V2]

I've never even heard of holding a controller with your fingers and not palming it. I thought that was the whole point of the numbs was to put those in your palms. Sounds to me like gamers have adapted to the DS3 and not the other way around. I'd argue that almost makes my point that the DS3 is not ergonomic.

 

That being said the thumbsticks are definitely just tacked onto the controller as a response to the N64's analog controller. You'll notice they actually elongated the numbs on the original dual analog controller when they added the sticks to try and make up for this. I actually have one of those original dual analog controllers with the concave tips and I much prefered it to the DS sticks. The controller died on me though I still have it as a collectors piece since they were kinda rare.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Yantelope V2

[fuchikoma]

Sorry, but... Sony's analog controller was at least 2 years old when the N64 came out so it can't have copied it. And looking at the history of other controllers you hold like the DS3 (also very common to touch edges along index fingers, but palms-off) I'd say it's more that gamers have adapted to the new big chunky controllers and forgotten how to hold all the others - don't feel bad though, it's way more common post-XBox. That's why I bring it up from time to time - there always seems to be someone who hasn't heard of it.

[Yantelope V2]

Sorry, but... Sony's analog controller was at least 2 years old when the N64 came out so it can't have copied it. And looking at the history of other controllers you hold like the DS3 (also very common to touch edges along index fingers, but palms-off) I'd say it's more that gamers have adapted to the new big chunky controllers and forgotten how to hold all the others - don't feel bad though, it's way more common post-XBox. That's why I bring it up from time to time - there always seems to be someone who hasn't heard of it.

 

No, the Analog controller came out April 25, 1997, one year after the N64

 

http://en.wikipedia....alog_Controller

 

also found this:

 

 

Look how much the numbs got elongated with the addition of the analog sticks. They shortened them a bit for the DS.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Yantelope V2

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

 

Clearly, there is some reason they don't go with longer arms. Also, "numbs" ?

[madbassman39]

That controller was supposed to be, from first impressions, very comfortable. It was community outrage that forced Sony to go back. I know I was against it (look at the L1L2/R1R2 buttons All the way in the center)

[WTF]

Actually it's not an issue of gamers adapting to the dual shock at all. I hate having things stuck or generally feel glued to the centre of my hand. I prefer materials at the periphery (fingers or if it's the palm above the heart line (that's the one that starts below your little finger/pinky). Maybe it's because I write different to other people (I learnt to paint with a brush before holding a pen and still sculpt and do pottery from time to time). Generally I prefer using my fingers too.

 

It's also probably an issue for people with much longer fingers (when you take the ratio of base to fingers), if it's balance fingers it can go either way but for those with much longer fingers they tend to prefer to grip more things with fingertips rather than the whole hand. I even hold the mouse with the palm in the air in general. It's not an aversion per se but I just dislike contact there when I think about it.

 

Like I've mentioned before, I think the real thing is it's right down to the individual, it's more of what kind of hands you have, the dexterity you possess and other things. Muscle memory plays a role in letting us get used to certain controllers over time. But when it comes to the natural style there's always a preference. For instance I absolutely hated the saturn/megadrive 2 controller but loved the megadrive one controller. They're both basically the same shape and the buttons are actually similarly aligned. It's just one has a much smaller form factor making it hard to press certain buttons exactly if you possessed larger hands. Personally it was annoying during the UMK3 days.

[Yantelope V2]

well, for you sweaty palm guys just get a ventilated controller and begin holding your controllers the right way again.

 

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I used to have a controller with a fan in it and shit. I dug it.

[Battra92]

I have to wonder if those things actually work. I am loving the Power A Pro EX controller (the 360 style controller for the PS3) but my wife HATES it! She prefers the DS3. I think a lot of it is just user preference.

 

Then again, I think the best controller of this gen is the Classic Controller so what do I know?

[Battra92]

I used to have a controller with a fan in it and shit. I dug it.

 

A fan I wouldn't mind. I'd prefer not to have feces in my controllers, though.

[fuchikoma]

No, the Analog controller came out April 25, 1997, one year after the N64

 

Huh... sorry, I stand corrected! That thing's history is even stranger than I'd heard. Thanks for catching me on that.

 

I still stand by my statement about palm-on controllers being the odd ones out though. In gaming it's newer, and far less common than the old "floating" grip.

 

A side thing from the other discussions too - personally I have no problem with the battery "tumor" since I used a Dreamcast for so long... in fact, it improves on the little grip-ledge on the DC. Splitting the battery carrier open to extract slightly thicker rechargeables on the other hand...

[TheRevanchist]

I still stand by my statement about palm-on controllers being the odd ones out though. In gaming it's newer, and far less common than the old "floating" grip.

 

The floating grip isn't horrible, but when you have big hands, the pinky has nowhere to go. But, nothing is really comfortable on my pinky. Broke too many fingers over my lifetime (each one earned playing sports), and I don't think my pinky is straight anymore.

 

That's what I love about the 360 controller. My DS3 has been dropped many a time in trying to handle it in my fingers. The 360 controller is nice and large, easy to grip and harder to drop.

 

Of course, I still like my original XBox controller. And everything is better than the knob controller for my Pong machine back in the day. That was a pain in the tuckus.

[fuchikoma]

Actually, I have pretty girly hands size-wise and my pinkies have nowhere to go either. Most of the time my controller more or less rests on my middle fingers. I've tried to drop DualShocks before though - slack hands and wrists, shaking up and down at the elbows - and even when it starts to bounce, it stays in my hands.

 

To each his own though - I don't want anyone to think I'm arguing that it's objectively better; just countering Yan's assertions that the 360 does it the right way while the DS3 is outdated, or that habit would be the only reason to use it, etc.