The greatest Controller of all time!

[excel_excel]

I find the 360 controller just fits into the hands nicely and I've got bigger hands myself, and I find resting my hands on the triggers a lot more comfortable then resting my fingers on the PS3's shoulder buttons. I've always found the PS3 controller a bit more better for tapping buttons, lest we forget all the PS3 buttons are pressure sensitive if I recall correctly, even the D-pad, although games rarely use them, if ever, I know a few games on PS2 did with the Dualshock 2 but on PS3 I can't recall any.

Edited March 7, 2012 by excel_excel

[TheMightyEthan]

There actually is a good reason for the offset sticks:

 

The upper position, where the left stick and face buttons are on the 360 controller, is more comfortable to rest your hand on, so really both sticks should be up there if that was all you're using. However, it's easier to make a precision move when going from the lower position to the upper position than vice-versa (i.e. taking your thumb off the right stick to hit a button). Because you need to be able to quickly take your thumb off the stick to make precise button hits, but not the other way around, the face buttons need to be above the stick so you can make that type of move quickly and reliably. On the left side, however, that's not as much of a consideration, so the stick can be in the upper position where it's more comfortable to rest your thumb.

[WTF]

Your justification Ethan would rely on if you're right-handed or left-handed technically. I think it is entirely possible lefties prefer the PS3 controller. There's also plenty of kids who were forced right too - some become ambidextrous and some well have weird issues.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

So basically people with smaller hands and/or lefties prefer the PS3 controller.

 

I still think modular is the best solution!

[TheMightyEthan]

How is it related to handedness? It's easier to go from the lower position to the upper position with precision than the other way around, no matter which hand you're using. It's also more comfortable to rest your hand in the upper position, no matter which hand you're using. Has nothing to do with handedness.

[WTF]

Actually it does. If you're left handed and you use the traditional right handed 360 controller you lose the aspect that you generally go with when you're using right-handed objects. Like I said I'm ambidextrous but that's from being forced to use my right hand more or less (they never cared for which way I held a pain but kept insisting I go right) and I have certain issues with symmetry and notice it's fairly common amongst most people I've met who are left-handed and I know a lot of left-handed gamers who coincidentally prefer the PS3 controller to the 360 controller and also possess the stereotypical 'large hands' issue which seems to be the thing that most people complain about when they dislike the dualshock 3.

 

There is no such thing as precision when you go from the lower position to the upper position in general terms. Like i keep beating on several times it's fairly unique to the individual. How it works for you and for some others who you've found it to work is well a group of people as opposed to the general case.

I do not find it precise, it feels janked and awkward to me, in fact it also feels janky and awkward to people with small hands and even those who are a bit left-handed. Of course this could be anecdotal but counting the fact that of the 50something people I can think of right now that play both consoles, I can see that all the lefties (of which there are 15) prefer the DS3 and the other is an about even split with some finding both OK as well.

 

edited for misplaced brackets XD

Edited March 8, 2012 by WTF

[Battra92]

So what you're saying is that this guy would prefer the PS3 controller?

 

 

I got thinking, though ... I love the Gamecube controller. For games designed around it, there is no substitute. I can't imagine playing Wind Waker with an Xbox controller or a DS2. That said, I wouldn't think of playing a fighting game with it (outside of Smash Bros) or something that requires a good D-Pad (like a GBA game on the GBP)

 

The more I think of it, I think a lot depends on which controller the devs really build their controls around. I can pretty much adapt to anything outside of say the Xbox Duke controller.

[TheMightyEthan]

I still don't think I understand what you mean about handedness. I mean, yes, the face buttons are on the right, which I would guess is due to the fact that most people are right handed, but the DS3 is like that too.

[WTF]

actually tiny hands would make sense. Most of my female gamer friends who usually find that the 360 controller hurts their hands have well smaller hands. And I do agree with you Battra, in fact most devs do know the ideal button placements for the game console it's developed on (Though I'll be honest MGS twinsnakes on the gamecube was a pain in the ass to control)

 

The DS3 is symmetrical which makes it easier when it comes to the placement of the sticks. We are mostly hardwired into appreciating symmetry by default for some reason (Though pure symmetry in living beings can sometimes confuse us), it's logical that our bodies function well to symmetry when it tries to adapt to something that's not natural to it. What I'm saying is that if the 360 controller were more left centric as in the sticks were arranged mirrored to what they are now it would be better for lefties. However it's not so the better option would be symmetrical. The accuracy you mentioned works better for those who are righties.

[TheMightyEthan]

The accuracy I mentioned works for moving your thumb from an "out" position to an "in" position, for both hands. What I was saying about the right stick is that you want the motion to go from the stick to the buttons to be an out-to-in motion. However, the "in" position is more comfortable for resting, so ideally whatever you rest your thumb on would be in the "in" position. All of that applies to both hands, regardless of handedness. Now, since the face buttons are on the right the precision of the out-to-in motion trumps the resting comfort consideration for that stick, not to mention the fact that in plenty of games you would rest your thumb over the face buttons rather than the stick, so the right stick goes in the lower position. That same consideration does not exist on the left side as there are far fewer times when you would rest your thumb on the d-pad or need to quickly and precisely hit a d-pad direction, so on that side the resting comfort trumps.

 

I agree completely that a mirrored version of the controller would be better for lefties, but that goes to which side the face buttons/d-pad should be on. What I'm saying is that whether the controller were as current or mirrored the stick on the face button side should be lower and the stick on the d-pad side should be higher.

 

I do agree that aesthetically though the symmetry of the DS3 is more appealing.

 

Honestly, in an ideal world the face buttons, sticks, and d-pad would all be on removable modules and everyone could arrange them in whatever configuration they like best. Deadzone and sensitivity/tension of the sticks should also be adjustable on the controller itself.

[WTF]

Well we aren't in disagreement then.

 

Outside of that I must say though that outside of all of this the clicking of the 360 sticks bothers me from time to time and it does feel too sharp/harder. I prefer the controllers to be soft but sturdy since I normally have long bursts of gaming sessions. The design mirrored would be fine but the make - there's a lot i would change there. Especially the buttons.

[madbassman39]

If I am understanding Ethan correctly, its the position of neutral hand. If you rest your hand neutrally on any controller, it will be closer to the edges and not the center. So if you are working for a dual stick perspective, the symmetry would be optimal if both thumb sticks were where in their respective position such as the left stick on the 360 pad. If you need buttons there, then the buttons are better there.

 

The 360 chose to put one stick up and buttons up on the right, because most games (left handed or not) only use the left stick to move the character and the right buttons to do actions. If you can arrange the controls to be suited for left handed gamers then you are at a disadvantage, because the main controls are not at the neutral position anymore.

[madbassman39]

Also, to help Ethan's argument, this controller has been called the most ergonomically created controller because of the stick/button positions and because of its symmetry. Everything is in the resting position of the hand

Damn is it ugly though

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

It's a prototype bro.

[madbassman39]

It's a prototype bro.

Wonderful!

 

Doesn't really change anything though. Prototype or not, it has been considered to be the most ergonomic controller to date, and it does look ugly as it is.

[TheMightyEthan]

My issue with that controller design is that two of the face buttons are on each side. Now regardless of which stick you use for movement you would sometimes have to take your thumb off that stick to hit a button, and in many games that is completely unacceptable.

 

*Edit* - I think they should do away with face buttons altogether and give me buttons on the underside of the controller, one for each finger. That way I never have to take thumbs off the sticks or have any traversal time to hit the right button.

Edited March 9, 2012 by TheMightyEthan

[madbassman39]

I would agree that functionality wouldn't be ideal, but the theory is that your hands never really leave the resting position. Frankly I'd prefer all buttons on one side as well, and both the DS3 and 360 controllers aren't so uncomfortable that I wouldn't sacrifice functionality over ergonomics.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

My issue with that controller design is that two of the face buttons are on each side. Now regardless of which stick you use for movement you would sometimes have to take your thumb off that stick to hit a button, and in many games that is completely unacceptable.

 

*Edit* - I think they should do away with face buttons altogether and give me buttons on the underside of the controller, one for each finger. That way I never have to take thumbs off the sticks or have any traversal time to hit the right button.

 

I can't believe you people are talking about this controller in this many. The ENTIRE point is to show off the technology in the thumbs.

[madbassman39]

Its being talked about because of the previous conversation having to do with thumbstick position. The many reports on that controller have mentioned why the thumbsticks and buttons are positioned there, and therefore its relevant to the conversation.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Yeah but Ethan's talking about button placement and shit like that. That's not the point of the prototype in the slightest.

[TheMightyEthan]

I was only talking about button placement because madbass said the controller is considered to be the most ergonomic in terms of button placement. I know the point of the prototype is the way it tugs on your thumbs.

[fuchikoma]

The accuracy I mentioned works for moving your thumb from an "out" position to an "in" position, for both hands. What I was saying about the right stick is that you want the motion to go from the stick to the buttons to be an out-to-in motion.

So "out" is toward your body and "in" is toward your index finger? I find I have much finer control when my hands are more open and my thumbs are pointing toward each other. Symmetrical sticks also lend themselves to accuracy better - if I push them together, the left stick is right and the right stick is left. If I move them both left or right, one points toward the other and the other copies it. If I did that on the 360, I'd have the left stick down-right and the right stick up-left, or both in either diagonal configuration. That's probably why they had to put raised bumps on the tops - to give you some sense of orientation.

 

However, the "in" position is more comfortable for resting, so ideally whatever you rest your thumb on would be in the "in" position. All of that applies to both hands, regardless of handedness. Now, since the face buttons are on the right the precision of the out-to-in motion trumps the resting comfort consideration for that stick, not to mention the fact that in plenty of games you would rest your thumb over the face buttons rather than the stick, so the right stick goes in the lower position. That same consideration does not exist on the left side as there are far fewer times when you would rest your thumb on the d-pad or need to quickly and precisely hit a d-pad direction, so on that side the resting comfort trumps.

I agree "in" is better for resting position, though I find on Playstation, I'm usually either using the d-pad and buttons or both sticks. Also, for me the awkwardness of the offset is far greater than any discomfort of having my hands slightly open. That's why I'd never choose a fighting game (d-pad and buttons) on an XBox over a Playstation, or usually even a twin-stick shooter (say, GTA4) given the choice. For a Katamari game, I'd even play on PSP with the d-pad and face buttons before I'd use offset joysticks to control it. Any serious gamepad-based rhythm games are out too (not that there are many...) There is just too much it doesn't work with for me that limits the choice of games I'd play.

 

Honestly, in an ideal world the face buttons, sticks, and d-pad would all be on removable modules and everyone could arrange them in whatever configuration they like best. Deadzone and sensitivity/tension of the sticks should also be adjustable on the controller itself.

Certainly not impossible. Stick tension adjustment used to be pretty standard in the 80s and the beatmania IIDX standard controller lets you take off the buttons in one block and flip them upside down so you can put the turntable on the left or right side.

Edited March 11, 2012 by fuchikoma

[TheMightyEthan]

The accuracy I mentioned works for moving your thumb from an "out" position to an "in" position, for both hands. What I was saying about the right stick is that you want the motion to go from the stick to the buttons to be an out-to-in motion.

So "out" is toward your body and "in" is toward your index finger? I find I have much finer control when my hands are more open and my thumbs are pointing toward each other. Symmetrical sticks also lend themselves to accuracy better - if I push them together, the left stick is right and the right stick is left. If I move them both left or right, one points toward the other and the other copies it. If I did that on the 360, I'd have the left stick down-right and the right stick up-left, or both in either diagonal configuration. That's probably why they had to put raised bumps on the tops - to give you some sense of orientation.

 

I didn't mean your thumb is more precise in the "in" position, I meant that you can make a more precise movement in an out-to-in motion than you can in an in-to-out motion.

 

As for the offset affecting accuracy of moving the sticks, I just don't have that problem, I can move my thumbs independently of each other without issue (if that's the problem most people have with offset sticks though suddenly it the complaint makes a lot more sense). Sounds like a "rub your stomach, pat your head" kind of problem.

[fuchikoma]

That seems kind of hard to measure though, unless there's an actual lack of accuracy with out to in or in to out motions... I've never really gone "aw, I got messed up by the transition!"

 

It's not a problem of moving thumbs independently, but more of removing reference points - like steering with motion controls - what's full lock? I'm trying to think of an analogy for the weirdness of the design, but it's difficult... It's like velcro shoes where they both fasten left to right, or a keyboard that elevates one half of the keys but not the other. Driving a car where it's one half steering wheel, one half handlebar, etc. All perfectly usable - but awkward and unnecessary.

[TheMightyEthan]

Oh, I see what you mean, confused me with the bit about pointing them toward each other. Still though, if that's a common issue then it makes more sense to me why people are bothered by the offset sticks, it's just not an issue I've ever experienced.