Swearing

[Pirandello]

I swear only within certain groups of friends and acquaintances and close family members.

 

I do not swear in public out of respect for others. That's pretty much it.

 

Unless we are arguing about the semantics of profanity or something, then I have about nothing to say about it, really.

[Mr W Phallus]

With regards to Spanish and Cantonese swearing, profanity in English can be used in the same way - though we don't have as wide a vocabulary, and I'd hesitate to call many of our swear words beautiful - but people don't, they use it lazily. If you remember this argument was precipitated by the comment that children 'don't need to see words like "cunt" flung around so carelessly'. It's not profanity itself that is the problem, but people's attitudes to swearing. Treating swearing as 'just another word' leads to it's overuse, the meaning and impact becomes diluted, basically it takes the fun out of it.

[Hot Heart]

Swearing is dumb as fuck but cool as shit.

[Johnny]

But fuck, if you'd fucking have society be a bitch and say "fucking" instead of fuck, fucknuts, fucker, fuckwit, fuckass, or even bitchfuck, have fucking at it. Goddamn judgements will fucking be made and there's nothing that can fucking stop a bitch, cunt, or asshole becoming goddamn uncomfortable with fucking casual motherfucking language.

 

Completely reasonable.

 

 

You are exaggerating your example to the point of absurdity.

Overuse of the word "fuck", just like overuse of any other words, will make your speech sound repetitive and boring. Overuse and repetition limits your range, not the specific usage of a swear.

Leaving out swears from your use of language is limiting as well.

 

As for kids overusing swears... It's just a form of rebellion. If swears weren't considered "bad" by their parents and teachers, they'd find something else to rebel against.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I don't generally curse. I don't think I'm superior, and I'm not smug about it, but I try to find different ways to express myself. Now, swearing in movies and such I think is absolutely necessary sometimes; imagine Saving Private Ryan or Dexter without the profanity. Simply wouldn't have the same intensity, or in the former's case, historical accuracy(ish). And I also don't get squeamish around other people swearing. It's just the way the world is and the way the world speaks, so I think to get all offended by things like that would be kinda foolish. I do cringe a little at "Jesus Christ" being tossed about, being a Christian and all. But again, I don't expect people who aren't Christians to respect the name, so I try not to let it bother me.

 

So yeah, P4 has spoken on this matter.

[Hot Heart]

In everyday life, I try not to curse. But that's because most people I know are aware that if I swear then I am really annoyed (like I was when talking about a particular delivery driver today). Like P4, I'm not offended by it or anything but with everyone I know it's always been a sign that something is 'serious' rather than joking around. Online it's a bit different though, since you don't always get the venom behind swearing in written form.

[MasterDex]

Swearing in moderation can help to empower a statement, I believe. I don't believe it to be a crutch for less intelligent folk to use when they can't think of another way to put more bang behind their words.

 

For instance, take a look at the following comment I made yesterday on Kotaku:

 

I was responding to this comment (The article was about BF3): "Yay, one more FPS to add to the bunch. Let's run around and kill each other, again. And again and again and again." and this one "You can't deny that the market is oversaturated with first person shooters. People get sick and tired of it and I'm just here to voice my opinion on the matter.", both from the same person.

 

My comment: "Give it over. "People get sick and tired of it". Bah! Then don't fucking buy them! Don't look at them, don't smell them, just stay away from them. The market is saturated with 3rd person action games, shitty twinstick shooters, MMOs and JRPGs yet who gives a flying fuck? More games of any genre means more choices FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ENJOY THEM. If you don't like them then why cry about them? You're just acting childish with that attitude. "I don't like them so they should just go away!" is basically what you're saying and it can't get much more childish than that."

 

Let's take the first sentence where a swearword appears - "Then don't fucking buy them" - If we remove the "fucking", it loses some of its impact, it sounds like a nice suggestion rather than the strong order I was trying to drive home.

 

The next use of a swearword is for pretty much the same purpose; to help drive the point home: "...yet who gives a flying fuck?". Now, I could have substituted "flying fuck" for "damn" or replaced that last bit of the sentence with "who cares?" but that doesn't quite get across just how stupid I think it is to care how many of a certain genre of games exist.

 

There's no need to go overboard on swearwords but they can serve a purpose and while relying on them too much to drive a point home can make you look like you don't have much to stand on, I believe succinct use can add gravitas to a statement.

 

One last example of where a swearword can change the meaning of a sentence:

 

"Who cares what happens to Osama Bin Laden?" - As it stands, it could be taken up as a genuine question. Add a "the fuck" however and it becomes clear that it's rhetorical.

 

"Who the fuck cares what happens to Osama Bin Laden?"

[CorgiShinobi]

But fuck, if you'd fucking have society be a bitch and say "fucking" instead of fuck, fucknuts, fucker, fuckwit, fuckass, or even bitchfuck, have fucking at it. Goddamn judgements will fucking be made and there's nothing that can fucking stop a bitch, cunt, or asshole becoming goddamn uncomfortable with fucking casual motherfucking language.

 

Completely reasonable.

 

 

You are exaggerating your example to the point of absurdity.

Overuse of the word "fuck", just like overuse of any other words, will make your speech sound repetitive and boring. Overuse and repetition limits your range, not the specific usage of a swear.

Leaving out swears from your use of language is limiting as well.

 

As for kids overusing swears... It's just a form of rebellion. If swears weren't considered "bad" by their parents and teachers, they'd find something else to rebel against.

First it was attention, but now it's rebellion. I didn't realize children were such punks.

 

What if perhaps it's because swears are also "grown up" words. Rather than the reasoning that it's to act out, it's to act like someone they look up to. That's generally why little kids begin swearing, to imitate their parents or an older sibling.

 

EDIT: At least, in my previous anecdotal, that was the cause for the five year-old. Turns out his father was kinda a loudmouth with a salty twist. He was "working" on it, but I think we all know it's kinda like sweeping dust under a rug: it's gonna pop out eventually.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Atomsk88

[Mr W Phallus]

One last example of where a swearword can change the meaning of a sentence:

 

"Who cares what happens to Osama Bin Laden?" - As it stands, it could be taken up as a genuine question. Add a "the fuck" however and it becomes clear that it's rhetorical.

 

"Who the fuck cares what happens to Osama Bin Laden?"

I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your comment but this last bit is a bit of a stretch; context and inflection should make it pretty clear on their own that a question is rhetorical. In writing it's a little bit more iffy since you don't have any inflection to go on, so maybe it'll help a little bit, but even then the second statement could be an angry but genuine question that the speaker actually does want answered so really it's all about context still.

 

Edit: This is more of an English vs English thing, but the use of 'swear' and 'swears' as nouns is alien to me, and whenever I read it I just imagine a small child not knowing the actual noun for a swear word (although apparently the use of swear as a noun is fine).

Edited July 23, 2011 by Mr W Phallus

[BrainHurtBoy...2]

Swearing is inherently okay. The words themselves are not any different in their basic nature than any other words. Swear words have a certain versatility that some other words lack, I'll concede that, but the idea that they limit vocabulary is an unfounded one. If people replace 'swears' with substitute words like 'freaking' instead of 'fucking' or 'darn' instead of 'damn', aren't those words just as limiting? Words are words are words. When a kid says 'shit', why would you punish him for it? Because of some unsupported belief that you hold about the word limiting his vocabulary? That's bullshit. Swear words have the power to limit vocabulary, sure, but so do any other words. If I write an essay containing the sentence

"Jonathan was struck and pain shot down his leg. He cried out in pain, 'Ouch!'"

then I would expect to be graded down for overuse of the word pain, instead of replacing the latter 'pain' with 'anguish' or 'agony' or any number of other suitable replacements. Overuse of any word doesn't sound good and is possibly harmful to developing vocabularies, and the overuse of 'fuck' should be reprimanded as much as the use of 'good'.

Swearing is not indicative of intelligence. I know dumb people who swear, and I know smart people who swear. There's no proof that swearing limits vocabulary any more than 'pain', yet some people in this thread seem to object to usage of the former rather than the latter. Sure, you may think swearing limits vocabulary, but that's unfounded. The fact of the matter is that most people I've seen speak out against swearing and use suspicious pseudoscience to back up their claims *ahem* are just trying to justify an outdated, archaic moralistic viewpoint that is just plain nonsensical.

There is nothing wrong with swearing, and I haven't seen or heard anything that proves otherwise.

[Mr W Phallus]

I don't see what is outdated, archaic or moralistic about designating certain words as vulgar or extreme, in order to give people a means of expressing that vulgarity or extremity of emotion.

 

The whole point of a swear word is that there is a social taboo on saying it. When we swear to add emotional emphasis to a sentence, we are reliant on this taboo; we are effectively saying 'I am so *insert emotion here* that only a word this strong, this profane can express my emotion' - the extremity of the taboo broken is indicative of the extremity of the emotion. Alternatively swearing might express that you are so worked up you can't even stop yourself from breaking that social taboo. You wouldn't stub your toe and shout out sex, or call someone a sexing idiot because that would sound ridiculous and would have none of the impact - there is no taboo on saying the word sex and this is what differentiates the words sex and fuck. If profanity stops being profane, it becomes redundant all together.

[Johnny]

In my friends' social circles, swearing is not considered taboo at all but is still used to signify the strength of the emotion conveyed.

[BrainHurtBoy...2]

Vulgarity implicates emotion, but emotion does not implicate vulgarity.

These words still have emotional significance without a necessary vulgar tone. Understand the difference between 'vulgar' and 'extreme'. As Johnny says, the people I socialize with in a non-professional environment don't consider swear words taboo, but use them nonetheless.

That said, there's nothing wrong with designating a word vulgar or extreme. It's just that many people teach those who are learning from them that using these vulgar, extreme words is wrong, and punish them for doing so. That bizarre imposition of nonsensical linguistic morality is what I find archaic, not the words' designation as terms of extremity. In fact, if they weren't designated as such, they would be meaningless. The 'viewpoint' I speak of in my post isn't the viewpoint of the words being considered to hold emotional emphasis, but the view that using these words is wrong or harmful.

[Mr W Phallus]

Understand the difference between 'vulgar' and 'extreme'.

...designating certain words as vulgar or extreme... expressing that vulgarity or extremity of emotion.

Understand the meaning of the word or?

 

In answer to yours and jonny's posts:

It's not so much about whether the social circles you move in consider swearing to be taboo, but the fact that society in general puts a taboo on swearing; it's the fact we call words like fuck, shit etc. swearing at all. The fact it is considered taboo is what gives it its extremity. Consider the word bloody. Technically it is a swear word, as it derives from the expression 'By our lady', but since the expression has been contracted to the point where the original meaning is obscure, and since religious expletives are nowhere near as frowned upon now as they once were the expression has become harmless; most people wouldn't even consider it swearing. If everyone were to take the attitude that the word fuck is appropriate all the time, anywhere and is completely harmless it would go the same way as bloody, either becoming just another word for sex or a meaningless, slightly archaic, harmless expression like bloody.

 

Even within your own social circles, are you really saying that hearing the word fuck from someone who swears often, has the same impact as hearing it form someone who rarely, if ever swears? The more it is said, the more it's meaning and impact is diluted.

 

I'm not trying to say people shouldn't swear, or that it is wrong to swear. Swear words should be used sparingly, however, if only to retain their meaning. I do think that young children should be taught not to swear, not so that they never do in the future, but for the same reason we gloss over many topics when talking to kids, because it is a subject which needs to be approached with a certain amount of maturity and respect. A small child isn't going to know the difference between swearing appropriately and swearing needlessly.

 

It's not about the words being wrong or harmful, but inappropriate at certain times (a lot of the time in fact, unless you are in a constant state of extreme emotion).

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

What MWP is saying pretty much. If my mom ever used a cuss word when we were growing up,we knew she was about to bring the pain. Mother truckin spankings hurt like heck.

[BrainHurtBoy...2]

Okay, first of all, I understand you used the word 'or' in your first sentence, but throughout the rest of your post, you used the terms 'extreme' and 'vulgar/profane' synonymously, in sentences like

"Only a word this strong, this profane can express my emotion' - the extremity of the taboo broken is indicative of the extremity of the emotion."

 

Now, I didn't mean to stress the part about my casual social circle's usage of swear words, but you responded to that, so I'll respond in turn. You said

"The fact it is considered taboo is what gives it its extremity."

Now, what Johnny and I said is that in our circles, it is not considered taboo. By your logic, it would have no extremity, yet it still does.

You bring 'bloody' up as being meaningless nowadays, but how is that due to overuse? That's just the evolution of two things. First of all, 'by our lady' wouldn't be considered offensive in modern urban areas nowadays because of growing secularity in cities, something totally different which has nothing to do with overuse. Secondly, the word has evolved to have no religious connotations, so even more religious folks won't take offense. Neither of these things have to do with overuse, just natural evolution of a word and society, two interesting issues, but ones that don't directly pertain to the conversation at hand.

 

Lastly, from this last post, the only reason you think children shouldn't swear is because they might accidentally overuse the word and dilute its meaning? What you seem to be saying is that the only reason you don't want people swearing too much is because they might devalue the word and its impact? How many times do I have to say this? Overuse of any word devalues that word's meaning. Why is it swear words exclusively you're picking on? If you're simply saying that overusage of a swear word will turn it into something that isn't a swear word, 1. You don't know that will happen and haven't provided any proof or examples backing it up, and 2. If we're projecting wildly here, why wouldn't they just be replaced with new words? Don't even respond to number 2, since that's just baseless conjecture.

 

Now, your final sentence.

"It's not about the words being wrong or harmful, but inappropriate at certain times."

I can agree with this. Actually, it's a fact. I don't think it should be this way, though, and if kids start swearing at a young age and don't know how to control themselves, then that problem lies with the kids, not the words themselves. You should reprimand the kid for swearing loudly in a public place, but at home with just you? No. People will be offended by swearing. I just don't think they should be, because there's no reason to be.

[Mr. GOH!]

Making something taboo just so it's taboo seems pretty arbitrary and irrational to me.

[deanb]

Making something taboo just so it's taboo seems pretty arbitrary and irrational to me.

 

I believe the term you're looking for is "seems pretty human".

 

The whole point of swear words. The whole reason we have a designation of a particular subset of words as "naughty" is so we have something that's taboo/vulgar/extreme.

 

My personal dislike for the overuse is becuase when you really really need a good word to just sum it all up, all you can do is say "FFFUUUCCCKK" louder than usual.

Also when writing, swear words do have a habit of coming up as a good adjectives/adverbs/nouns/verbs to use before most other, more appropriate, words and that gets annoying.

 

Of note: I've only casually glanced over this thread. Thought I'd dip my toes in.

[Mr. GOH!]

Making something taboo just so it's taboo seems pretty arbitrary and irrational to me.

 

I believe the term you're looking for is "seems pretty human".

 

The whole point of swear words. The whole reason we have a designation of a particular subset of words as "naughty" is so we have something that's taboo/vulgar/extreme.

 

My personal dislike for the overuse is becuase when you really really need a good word to just sum it all up, all you can do is say "FFFUUUCCCKK" louder than usual.

Also when writing, swear words do have a habit of coming up as a good adjectives/adverbs/nouns/verbs to use before most other, more appropriate, words and that gets annoying.

 

Of note: I've only casually glanced over this thread. Thought I'd dip my toes in.

 

Shouldn't we strive to be better than our flaws?

 

There is no objective 'purpose' to swear words. It's a historical development. The English-speaking world's attitude to them is idiosyncratic and based in Victorian sensibilities.

[Mr W Phallus]

Okay, first of all, I understand you used the word 'or' in your first sentence, but throughout the rest of your post, you used the terms 'extreme' and 'vulgar/profane' synonymously, in sentences like

"Only a word this strong, this profane can express my emotion' - the extremity of the taboo broken is indicative of the extremity of the emotion."

I didn't intend vulgar and profane to be used synonymously, I use the word profane to mean 'a word which is considered profanity'. I don't think there are really any suitable synonyms, other than swear word, because I consider swearing to be pretty unique in the way that it can be both socially acceptable and unacceptable. In hindsight I would probably drop the word vulgar from that first sentence entirely, since the 'vulgarity' of profanity is a separate issue to the point I was making but that makes no difference to the point I was making.

 

"The fact it is considered taboo is what gives it its extremity."

Now, what Johnny and I said is that in our circles, it is not considered taboo. By your logic, it would have no extremity, yet it still does.

And as I pointed out, it doesn't matter whether your circle considers it taboo - your circle did not give the word it's extremity. The word was considered extreme long before you were born, and this extremity comes from the word being considered a taboo.

 

You bring 'bloody' up as being meaningless nowadays, but how is that due to overuse? That's just the evolution of two things. First of all, 'by our lady' wouldn't be considered offensive in modern urban areas nowadays because of growing secularity in cities, something totally different which has nothing to do with overuse. Secondly, the word has evolved to have no religious connotations, so even more religious folks won't take offense. Neither of these things have to do with overuse, just natural evolution of a word and society, two interesting issues, but ones that don't directly pertain to the conversation at hand.

I didn't directly use the word overuse, because it not so much an issue of how many times a swear word is used (I'll use fuck as an example again), but rather the attitude which leads to the overuse of a swear word. Attitudes towards the word bloody changed. A major part of this was, as you said, growing secularity - a form of social change. Now secularisation itself won't affect the word fuck, but other social change can. If society were to change so that, for whatever reason, everyone was of the attitude that the word fuck is appropriate all the time, anywhere and is completely harmless (and to some extent this is happening) then, as I said, it would lose its extremity in the same way that bloody did. The second reason why bloody lost its offensive nature is because the meaning became obscured. Well I would argue this is already happening with fuck; whilst the original sexual meaning is for the moment retained, it is used in all sorts of non-sexual ways, as an adjective, a noun, a verb - it doesn't really matter.

 

Lastly, from this last post, the only reason you think children shouldn't swear is because they might accidentally overuse the word and dilute its meaning? What you seem to be saying is that the only reason you don't want people swearing too much is because they might devalue the word and its impact? How many times do I have to say this? Overuse of any word devalues that word's meaning. Why is it swear words exclusively you're picking on? If you're simply saying that overusage of a swear word will turn it into something that isn't a swear word, 1. You don't know that will happen and haven't provided any proof or examples backing it up, and 2. If we're projecting wildly here, why wouldn't they just be replaced with new words? Don't even respond to number 2, since that's just baseless conjecture.

'Lastly, from this last post' Not the best use of English there, generally we are taught to avoid using the same word (or variations of the same word) in close proximity because it doesn't sound very good, BUT crucially, this is an aesthetic matter only, the meaning of the word last/lastly does not change because it is overused. Profanity differs from other words because its meaning is intrinsically linked to the attitude people have towards it. If you start throwing the word fuck around like any other non-extreme word then it stops being extreme because you're not treating it like it's extreme and therefore it can't express extremity; if you throw the word last around like any other word it still means last no matter how many times you say it.

 

Making something taboo just so it's taboo seems pretty arbitrary and irrational to me.

The point I'm trying to get across is that it isn't irrational - it serves a purpose. Perhaps taboo is the wrong word, it suggests you should never ever swear. Think of swear words, then, as a fire extinguisher. (Bear with me here). A fire extinguisher exists to serve a purpose. No one in their right mind would tell you never to use a fire extinguisher - hell in the case of a fire I'd encourage you to do so - but using it at the wrong time is a fineable offence. I quite like this metaphor, it even extends to those times where you come in drunk from a night out and set the fire extinguisher off for a laugh; you know you shouldn't but it's still hilarious (I swear a lot for comic effect, especially when drunk). But if you use the fire extinguisher too much, and an actual fire happens, you'll find that the fire extinguisher you've been using isn't adequate for the job any more.

 

NB: I realise lives are not at stake over the casual use of a swear word (depends who you're swearing at I suppose) and I'm not advocating the introduction of fines for swearing.

[BrainHurtBoy...2]

WP, all you did in your post was restate your point. You say overuse will make the word lose its significance, but aside from in the sense of aesthetics ("Lastly, this last post, etc.), there is no proof for that.

I do not think the words will change meanings from overuse any more than any other word will.

[Mr W Phallus]

WP, all you did in your post was restate your point. You say overuse will make the word lose its significance, but aside from in the sense of aesthetics ("Lastly, this last post, etc.), there is no proof for that.

I do not think the words will change meanings from overuse any more than any other word will.

Neither do I. But if I go through it again, that literally would just be repeating my last post.

[deanb]

So while browsing r/dwarffortress I came across what I feel is a pretty good example of overused swear words:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/682625/Fucking%20Aquifers%20FUCK.png

[Mr W Phallus]

So while browsing r/dwarffortress I came across what I feel is a pretty good example of overused swear words:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/682625/Fucking%20Aquifers%20FUCK.png

That reads like he's trying to imitate the guy from EpicMealTime (badly). :/

[excel_excel]

Skimmed the thread some good arguements here! I think swearing in regular conversation places anger and emphasis on something like "Try harder!" "I'm fucking trying my hardest here" which kind of puts an end to the conversation. Or sometimes it doesn't change the sentences impact at all "How you feeling?" "Fucking tired." which would be pretty much the same as "pretty tired."

 

Certain swears have had their shock value stripped though. Fuck and all its variants are pretty tame these days, same with shit. Cunt. That's still got its shock factor.oh man, that's a good one!