Notes from the Riot outskirts

[WTF]

I didn't really want to make a blog post about it or anything personally but I felt like I could share a few thoughts and some stuff I'd observed on what's been going on here lately. I do apologise if it doesn't seem totally coherent.

Also I don't really know how many of you guys are in London but if you guys came to the cleanup. Thank You!

 

Personally I'd heard of the shooting on Saturday night but brushed it off sort of I mean we've had protests before. However it escalated quite a fair bit since then. Most of us expected it to die out by Monday. We were appalled by the looting and rioting that happened there but you have to understand Tottenham and even Enfield are generally shite areas. It was expected to be contained to those areas. Of course they are multicultural but it's also an area with high unemployment and other similar issues.

 

The next day newspapers started to report areas of riots in the past and that night places like Brixton which have seen riots previously were hit. Of course now it's going across London on a much wider scale. By the third day they started reporting about the various places of tension from the past. Places like Handsworth which mostly have older people living there now like my wife's grandparents (they are fine) but the area has seen riots last night. The youth are revolting but the looting seems calculated. Most places get fair warnings of about 5 hours before they get hit. While we assume that it's fortunate that there's only been two fatalities in total from the riots, it does seem like this is more gang-motivated and planned. Last night in Clapham you could tell which gangs were involved based on the scarves they were wearing. I work at times in Shoreditch and Soho and Monday people were getting warned in several places from Dalston to Peckham that they would be attacked. Today we hear that Camberwell, Greenwich, Catford, etc are places in the SE that could be hit.

 

We're out to keep our neighbourhoods safe. I live in a pretty smallish yet decent area and I can still hear kids playing in their yards but vehicles are starting to die out. I'm guessing the gas stations would be closed by now. The police advised all shops to close. The pubs were open at 4 in most places but even they started to shut down. I am seeing plenty of bicycles and motorbikes getting mobilised though.

 

Regardless the cleanup bit shows how many of us are visibly standing up against it. We just want to get on with our lives. We're not really going to live in fear from these hooligans. Honestly there's no real point in going out in force to cause trouble. Last night some of the people were forced to assist the police since they didn't want to use violent force in some areas and the kids ran away when they were chased. We just want things to go back to normal. Looking at things as how it is, it seems that based on what happens tonight it probably will possibly get milder. Mind you that most of them are probably between 16/17 to 20somethings (a few in their 30s as well) and they wouldn't want to pay for their consequences. In the meanwhile RIM decides they'll out all data about their users who were present near the riot locations in a bid to assist the police which led their website being defaced and data being stolen.

 

As of now there have been 563 arrests and a little over a 100 charged and should be more than a 100 police injured. There are ambulances and police vans in several areas. I've heard more sirens per 30 minutes now than I have ever since I'd moved here (of course it was always higher in shitty old Islington). Personally in the immediate area where I live I haven't thankfully seen any damaged cars or stores and I hope that it remains that way however I do not have to go more than 2-3 miles to see the damages.

 

Unlike what media want you to think outside of a few incidents it was relatively calm at around 5pm yesterday. Yes store-owners were warned but it was around 730 or 8 that things started to happen and you could see stuff happening in Lewisham, Hackney, Peckham, Croydon etc as well as the earlier affected areas. I was at the o2 till around 930 when we realised it was going to be difficult to get home. We did manage but it was pretty difficult since the areas surrounding ours weren't in the best of states but there was transportation. However those who were driving home were in a spot and past 11 things just got much worse. I'm glad that by 3am someone decided that we needed to cleanup the streets and all you need in times like these is just a little hope.There does seem to be a false dichotomy amongst some of these misguided youth who seem to keen to attack certain residential areas thinking it's either them or the rest of us saying stuff like they're poor and we're not. Fortunately they were stopped in those areas.

 

However there are few notes to be had. What sort of person was Marc Duggan really? Also it's now been found he didn't even open fire in the first place. Not to mention there are supposed eye-witness account that the riots initially started when the police attacked a girl who asked them why he was shot. It was later found that she was 16. There's also irresponsible rumour-mongering on twitter claiming riots where there aren't any. This isn't really helping us sleep at night since we'd like to be sure that nothing happens in our areas.

 

There's more that does need to be investigated into everything. It's not a clear open and shut case. But for now it does seem like the riots here could subside since there's a curfew and people are prepared. However I would be concerned about the other cities since all focus is on the capital right now.

 

Yesterday there were scenes of buses being hijacked and crashed and other things. Today taxis aren't willing to go to all areas. Last night there were several disruptions. I'm not stepping outside tonight unless there's an actual need to protect the area.

 

On a side note thanks to the cleanup in Clapham

 

This isn't my image but I couldn't link the original on the forum.

 

Also if you'd like to follow the riots live

http://www.guardian....-four-live-blog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

http://www.telegraph...riots-live.html

 

 

p.s. I could post updates later if needed. The things that need to stop are exaggerations. For the most part they are out to get shops it seems and if you live on a building that has a shop.then you need to worry. Speaking thus there are militia now in areas that are under threat.

 

Further Notes: Some of the charged include university students, graduates, army recruits, a graphic designer, this is starting to seem more planned and organised rather than something between classes. People taking advantage of a situation. Also if anyone feels insulted or anything I apologise in advance.

[deanb]

You posted sorry in advance right at the end

 

Yeah I was flicking through the BBC news app while out and was kinda shocked to see the folks that have been charged. This isn't just a case of unemployed turning now. It's folks who have realised that the law is largely powerless and they can seemingly get away with anything they want. They'd better stop though cos these aren't powerless.

 

 

It's just really shitty. I dunno it feels like something has been wanting to happen for a long while. The trigger just doesn't seem right though. Not really sure I can explain it.

 

The gov't/those in power don't seem to completely know how to deal with it either. There's that joke freedom of information request on "how would you deal with zombies" but you wouldn't think you'd have to ask on "how would you deal with mass looters"

[Enervation]

From what I hear from word of mouth apparently the riots spread because of gang rivalry? Is that true?

 

And if it was gang rivalry, wouldn't that be enough justification to quell the riots? If it was done purely to raise the reputation of gangs I don't think they're going to be stopping any time soon, especially if it's to see who can hit the most buildings.

[deanb]

Quite the opposite, from what we've seen the gangs are working together.

[Mal]

Working together? More reason to bring down the hammer on them. Come on, I rather have the police look bad doing something than looking bad by doing too little or nothing...

 

And now this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gUMdnW_07s

[Enervation]

That's what I have a problem with. It's the inaction. I mean, even some cordoning, maybe a single tear gas grenade... but nothing. The rioters are going farther and farther to see just what they can get away with without police intervention, and since the police are busy sitting on their hands I'm willing to bet things will escalate within the next day or so unless the police start acting in some way at least.

 

They might as well not even be there. With the riot police standing in the streets I'm willing to say some of the rioters will loot in their direct sight just to piss them off.

[Pirandello]

From what I hear, the police aren't intervening in order to not appear "heavy-handed" and have ruled out using water cannons as crowd control.

 

Can't they use gas grenades, or even rubber bullets? It's not like they're going to open fire with live ammunition into a crowd of rioters, for crying out loud. People are having their livelihoods destroyed here.

[WTF]

Lol Dean XD.

 

Last night was relatively quiet here. Of course there were sirens going off from time to time but generally London was a lot quieter than usual. Stores were of course shut early. Apparently one of the bigger Sainsburys near me had a few windows attacked during the afternoon but for the most part it was ok. The police did get everything shut down soon.

 

Also Pirandello, they've been authorised to use rubber bullets. However we have had newspapers like the i being irresponsible with the headlines. We don't have guns for a reason and the fact that the police do want to prevent serious violence against the rioters and yeah to not appear heavy-handed sort of slows procedure which at times can be good. However they were quite serious last night and hence it was pretty calm.

 

The thing is there's no more inaction here. Something went off at the recycling plant at Enfield close to 2am (I was awake) and people got worried again but it turned out to be nothing serious. We also had issues of racists coming out in the guise of protection. In places like Eltham we had militia type groups forming because most of us wanted to keep our areas safe and secure. Most of these were eventually dispersed by the police. See we're not totally inactive, it's just that most people didn't expect looter and rioters to form. Once we saw it happen it's changed. However the rest of England has been seeing issues yesterday.

 

Liverpool and Salford, parts of Gloucester, Manchester and of course Birmingham,Wolverhampton and such. They all saw looters. They are just criminals emboldened by the recent actions and trying to take advantage of the situation. In many places it was quite organised too. There's also the issue that while in brum it was quieter there were kids as young as 9 or 10 along with the looters and we sort of have to ask how can these kids be out on the streets with the thugs involved in these activities.

 

What happened was a group of people trying to take advantage of a situation. London is safer for now. There's still tensions but in places like Southhall, Hackney, SE London and even the earlier affected areas people are trying to get on with their lives. It should be ok in a while.

 

There are issues here that are much deeper than race or money. It's disenfranchised youth and a culture of excess where people expect to have things even if they don't have the means. There's many sides to this but most of us are upstanding enough to not be the kind to resort to this sort of stuff. And yeah like both me and Dean have said, the people involved aren't exactly people who don't have the means but perhaps can't afford the excess things they want which they shouldn't expect.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

They are just criminals emboldened by the recent actions and trying to take advantage of the situation. In many places it was quite organised too.

 

I disagree. I think most rioters follow a mob mentality. Basically, they see someone else doing it, and do it themselves. These people mostly wouldn't be criminals otherwise. Obviously though, it's still wrong. The same thing explains the kids doing it. I mean hell, if I was that age, and my parents weren't super strict I don't even know what kind of trouble I would get into. Kids are much more susceptible to this sort of things than others.

 

Anyways, I have always felt like riots don't accomplish much besides a few exceptions. What will be the result of these riots? What will come of it? Will it be what these people wanted? I think not. I think this is too unfocused. Your last paragraph really digs into what is going on here and also makes me think of why black metal fans/musicians were burning churches in Norway in the early to mid-90s. People can get bored when life is easy. When you're young, you have to rebel against something.

[deanb]

So from what I'm hearing, over in the US it's been thought to be a race thing (mark duggan been black, a chunk of rioters being black). It's not it's very much a class thing. We have class-ism(?) where US has racism. Our class structure isn't as simple as "Everyone is middles class!"

 

And FSD there's no aims or goals or they'd have been marching, most likely right for Parliament (it's shut atm), or Downing Street. This is looting. It's main aim is to get free stuff and show the police what for.

[Hot Heart]

"The Conversatives or whatever who it is. I don't know"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

Yeah. Obviously, they don't speak for everyone but there really is no actual aim.

[Mr W Phallus]

They are just criminals emboldened by the recent actions and trying to take advantage of the situation. In many places it was quite organised too.

 

I disagree. I think most rioters follow a mob mentality. Basically, they see someone else doing it, and do it themselves. These people mostly wouldn't be criminals otherwise. Obviously though, it's still wrong. The same thing explains the kids doing it. I mean hell, if I was that age, and my parents weren't super strict I don't even know what kind of trouble I would get into. Kids are much more susceptible to this sort of things than others.

Whilst there will be a significant amount of people just there 'for the laugh', there is certainly organisation. Yes it's mob mentality, that's why they're so easy to manipulate. It's very easy to take charge of a mob, one guy could easily start up a chant of 'let's get x shop' and away they go.

 

I remember reading last night that there were people seen riding around Manchester on mountain bikes, passing information onto people in cars. In another incident (in Birmingham I think) rioters escaped police through back streets only to meet up at a clearly pre-arranged rendezvous point. Whilst not everyone is a gang member or hardened criminal, they are definitely there pulling the strings.

 

 

And for those who think that the police are doing nothing here are the arrest figures (as of 10am this morning)

 

Metropolitan: 768 (167 charged)

Greater Manchester: 300

West Midlands: 109

Nottinghamshire: 84

Merseyside: 50

Avon & Somerset: 24

TOTAL: 1,335

[WTF]

As Dean says it's not Racism but Classism. Yes there have been race-riots in the past though. No denying that but that's of a different nature. There were issues of race brought up thanks to three youths killed in Brum by that car (Sad story) because the people in the vehicle were Black-British in a largely British-Asian community. However we'll find out what really happened there soon enough.

 

You see FDS they are criminals as Dean said the primary aim here was to get free stuff. The cause and the start might have been different but there are criminal gangs involved in some of the events. Some were planning activities via Facebook, there was a kid who actually told people how to burn down the Miss Selfridges who's now arrested and his hearing was set for today. The people who've been captured come from a variety of backgrounds, circumstances and the like. One of the accused today (Although his charge has been reported to be of trespassing) is actually a 31 year old Primary School Teaching assistant. See the people here mostly wanted to get free stuff. That was the main aim. At what cost?

 

As HH pointed those two kids talking about drinking Rose Wine and wanting stuff they perceived the rich to have do not really want to work for anything but just be handed stuff. There's flaws on every side here. The govts, the advertised lifestyle, the economic situation, the fact that people in power are seen to get away with stuff. They don't care about who's in power. They lack power and they want it. They lack things and they want it. It's to do with class, lack of opportunity, the unwillingness to work to get somewhere, crime and a number of things.

 

Once some of them have been made examples of the non-crime side would sit out on this. Then we'll just have the gangs mostly. And as Richard points out the police are making arrests. Not to mention here in London the courts at Camberwell and Highbury have been up since yesterday passing sentences on what they could and moving the others to different courts.

 

Mob mentality exists yes and there are kids who see the lawlessness and try to get in seeing their elders. But it's definitely gang-started and the fact that many witnesses have seen and have reported that there seem to be instructions, leader figures and some sort of organisation in the chaos suggests that crime is heavily involved in this.

[TheRevanchist]

Question: Are guns legal in GB? Are they easy enough to buy? I haven't heard much about gunfire being exchanged, so I am curious. But, I've had my head burried enough I didn't even know about the riots until yesterday morning. Harvest time is a busy time.

[WTF]

Possession of firearms is illegal in the UK unless you have an SGC or FAC. As per earlier laws possession of even ammunition by former convicted criminals is also illegal.

Replicas that resemble real guns are also a restricted trade item. You need special permits to own one. Civilians can't run around with firearms. We also have regulations on airguns due incidents which have affected businesses such as airsoft.

 

Historically however we've always had fewer homicides thanks to guns even before regulation. We do have knife crime, but it's been lower in the past few years. In fact if you appear to be a minor when buying cutlery that looks like it could be a weapon they can ask you for id.

 

Getting an SGC or FAC isn't easy. You need to first demonstrate you have good security on your property or business before they give you anything. Not to mention a lot of weapons are restricted so even with the certificates you can only get a limited number of weapons.

 

Generally we take our anti-gun stance quite seriously here. In fact most of Europe does as well if I remember my laws well. There's precautions that we take when we handle replicas and stuff we usually sign on shoots.

[CorgiShinobi]

I've heard that while Mark Duggan didn't open fire, he was still in possession of an illegal firearm. Either way, whether it was a protestor or officer who broke first, we may never know the exact details because these riots have eclipsed any intent to asking why. Now the intent has become answering how; how do the rioters organize now, how can we stop the riots with current methods, and how much longer until military forces are requested.

[deanb]

 

I'd heard whispers of this, thought it was some joke:

http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/8/11/cameron-threatens-shut-down-uk-social-networks/

[Yantelope]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-without-responsibility

 

I found this interesting. Wondering what you Brits thoughts were. Seems like entitlements are the question on everyone's plate whether it be the US, UK or even Greece.

[Battra92]

http://www.guardian....-responsibility

 

I found this interesting. Wondering what you Brits thoughts were. Seems like entitlements are the question on everyone's plate whether it be the US, UK or even Greece.

 

Politicians have kicked the can down the road on entitlements for the last 80 years or so since these programs reared their ugly red heads into most people's lives. Kids grow up expecting free school, free college, free retirement etc. and when the pyramid schemes all collapse at once with "The Great Recession" (I hate that term but that's what people call the current extended recession) it leaves a lot of grown up babies at a loss and think that "the rich" should pay their way instead of looking to see how THEY can provide for themselves.

[WTF]

@Dean: It's not quite like what's mentioned in the article. You're right in that it sounds like a joke because people have misunderstood certain aspects of it. Basically social networks and BBM aren't banned but they'll be monitored and it's sort of similar to what happened on 7-7. Basically as of now rioters and suspects will be banned from social media and the like.

 

Yanty one thing I'll say is do not read the comments at CiF because it's a cesspool but the article isn't quite far from the truth. You see we do have issues with entitlement and it's bleeding obvious today.

A 19 year old university going daughter of a millionaire is one of those in court for looting, there's a social worker, a couple of 11 year olds. Different backgrounds, different cultures and communities. It is a little to do with consumerism. The other day a father was confused as to why his son was involved in it and enraged that his kid such a thing. I didn't get the time to watch the whole thing but it did seem like he wanted to set him straight.

 

On the other end, things got calm in Brum, primarily because of Mr Jahan's appeal for peace and that of the elders as well. The Brasian community (mostly the Sikhs and Muslims) felt an overwhelming sense of loss over the three that died since they were guarding all the locations regardless of faith, culture, etc. It's been vaguely rumoured that it was perhaps the Afro-Carribean community but to be honest we don't know. All we've got is unclear eyewitness accounts at the moment.

There's an article in the guardian that pretty much covers it --> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-birmingham-muslim-sikhs

 

The issue of entitlement here isn't even rich or poor. It's a flaw of consumerism as most of these people aren't all poor. There's the college student who stole a TV and was sentenced saying she just got in the flow. There's one who came out and admitted her guilt of theft and returned everything and thus got a pardon if I recall correctly (she wasn't identified or arrested prior to that).

 

As for Mark Duggan it's going to be difficult to know the truth. Outside of the fact that there's evidence pointing to him being a drug dealer and that he possessed a gun we don't know if he's really incited anything. The taxi driver is too shocked to comment.

 

Regardless of it all, last night was relatively quiet across the country and tonight we'll see what happens but the organised thugs know they can't hit the cities with ease at the moment and arrests are still being carried out.

[Mal]

http://keepaaroncutting.blogspot.com/

 

Another nice thing to happen out of all this chaos.

[Mr W Phallus]

Entitlement culture? The rioters didn't feel entitled to the things they stole, they just saw that they could steal them. The riots don't need rationalising beyond mob mentality and opportunistic theft. Avarice and covetousness are hardly modern phenomena. People like to lay the blame somewhere, because identifying 'the cause' seems like a step towards 'solving' the problem. Well it's human nature that is to blame, and the only thing separating the rioters from the non-rioters is inhibition. The rioters acted without thought or care for the consequences for other people - that doesn't excuse their actions of course - most people (you'd like to think) would stop themselves out of sympathy for those they are making suffer. However, if someone offered me the opportunity to smash up a shop and take whatever I wanted, and no ones livelihood would be harmed in the process, I'd jump at the chance. Smashing things is fun. Getting stuff for free is great. What's so hard to understand?

[RockyRan]

I highly doubt this has anything to do with the entitlements. This isn't "free college" or "free retirement", this is simply "free PSP I stole from that clod over there".

 

Cheapass, amoral kids + collective mob mentality + free shit + no repercussions = riots. That's all there is to it.

[WTF]

I was pretty much with you Richard on a few points but there's a few points I'll be differing from clearly.

'smashing things' with or without consequences is not fun. Never fun when you know that everything was created somewhere and by someone's toil. There's nothing that's created for free. I don't think you can think that smashing something is fun unless you really let your baser instincts go which I'd hope most of us are a bit beyond. Besides inhibition, fear is also a reason for some. I'm sure there were people a bit put off by the crazy mob. (the rest of it is general stuff and not directed at you ).

 

As for getting stuff for free, yes you're right but here's the thing. Mob mentality while it exists we've got controls to set us apart. Some people were caught in the moment but some people did instigate it as well. The entitlement issue stems from the responses of some kids like the ones who said hey we can drink Rose wine and everything. If those who are rich can, why can't we? If those in government can get away with expenses scandals, the bankers can get away with theft of a certain degree and so on. When people see that for the most part people can get away with stuff and consquences for those in higher positions aren't as bad they wonder if they can't as well.

 

There's more than to it than entitlement though that could be there to some extent. The clear reason is that there's far too many reasons to pinpoint it on one specific reason. The biggest reason is that people believed they could get away with it. That they wouldn't get caught which is idiotic frankly when London is the most CCTVd city in the world. Consumerism is also at flaw here because people are made to covet things. Would people just try to get free stuff if they weren't so tempted with consumerism? The thing we must not do right now is to just say yeah it was one reason only and stick to that. What's needed to be done is to get them to understand what they're doing is wrong and for that every decent citizen needs to set an example of themselves and punishments must be meted out to those guilty. We should not give into excuses and say yeah it was this or that.