Hot Heart Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 This is going to sound like an odd one but I've been writing an article on the bad side of 'upgrades' in games (abilities, stat increases, etc.). Stuff like how they can seem tacked on, don't match the character or the setting, or can be quite boring. But rather than it all being negative there is a good side too, and I'd like to hear it from you guys. Any particular upgrade/unlock systems you've liked? What about a particularly fond memory involving one? In this regard, I remember doing the Skagzilla mission in Borderlands with Mordecai but not realising it would be quite so tough and without taking enough ammo. Fortunately, I had upgraded the Bloodwing to allow the occasional drop of health and ammo after striking an enemy. So, after a protracted fight, I finally managed to defeat the thing. It may be because it was already a creature, in a sense, but I had a fondness for that guy from that moment on. (OK, that does sound odd). So, what about you guys? Obviously, feel free to be negative as well; there may be something I've missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) I think upgrading and improving your character as you go usually adds a nice layer of depth to the game. Deus Ex is probably the best example I can think of. It's tough to implement though. You can't have the upgrades making the game too easy but you don't want the game to be too hard if you don't purchase the correct upgrades as well. I think the best kind of upgrades are the ones that help you play how you want. Crysis 2 did a good job of this letting you increase your stealth or shields depending on how you like to play. Jedi Knight II also had a great upgrade system. There is something really rewarding about going from a weak padawan to an all powerful Jedi. A bad example could be the Fable games. Generally you just pump up every stat and there's never any hard choices to make. Additionally magic was way over powered in the first game and your lightning spell could kill everything. For a game that was supposed to change your look depending on how you play I always ended up looking the same. Edited August 11, 2011 by Yantelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangelove Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Upgrade systems is pretty much the reason I love 3rd person games and dislike FPS. Most FPS just dont have them. At least in single player. You just get better guns. Youre still reliant on your own skill. In 3rd person games like RE4, AC, Dead Space, and Infamous, you can get more health, more power, and more abilities that actually do something. The variety in 3rd person games are just great and a lot of fun. Those games wouldnt be the same without their upgrade systems. Theyre not all the same game besides having a similar interface or upgrade system. Which is something that cant be said of FPS. Im not trying to shit all over FPS right now, but honestly....theyre basically all the same. Thats my problem with them and i imagine most people. You have to LOVE the core gameplay, because there isnt much progress. That being said, a good single player with good locations, interesting characters and AT LEAST guns that LOOK cool, that makes a good fps for me. Mostly Bioshock and Killzone which I think do things well. Shit, Bioshock has a damn great upgrade system. Its ridiculous no one else copies it. If there are similar games, id love some recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) I agree that more FPS should have upgrade features and I think we're seeing that more and more especially with the FPSRPG going full swing with Oblivion, Deus Ex, Fallout and Borderlands. Traditionally though FPS has focused on the guns and the weapons. Generally in Third Person games you're more dealing with jumping, interacting with objects etc. Usually you only ever have one or two guns in third person games. I mean, TPS is a relatively new genre and most third person games were just called "adventure". I don't think either should lose their identity but I think as the genres continue to blend together we'll continue to see them borrow the best parts from each other. Mass Effect 2 is a great example of this. Edited August 11, 2011 by Yantelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr W Phallus Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 I think, by and large, it's always fun to upgrade stuff. I guess to get it right it's all about finding the balance between upgrades actually making a difference to how you play and not making your success reliant on them. I seem to remember when playing Borderlands (as Mordecai) that some skills seemed extremely useful (mostly involving Bloodwing) whilst others seemed pretty pointless (marginal changes to reload times etc.).Then again, even unnecessary upgrades can help add that unique touch to your character, and give you more of a personal investment in them. In Assassins Creed 2 & Brotherhood for example, I really like that they have so many weapons to buy (I know it's not quite an upgrade system but I think it's comparable), even if ultimately it won't make a whole lot of difference to your success in the game. Whichever weapons you choose to buy help forge your identity within that game. I think the most satisfying thing about upgrade systems is that they provide both a goal to work towards and tangible feedback of your investment into the game. The better you do the more you are rewarded. Another thing is that, in a medium that is hardly renowned for it's narrative, upgrades and skill progression can be used to suggest character progression. It almost sounds cheap to describe it that way, but watching a character grow literally more powerful can figuratively portray character development much better than the stilted dialogue found in most games. This probably hasn't been used to it's full potential at all, but hopefully it will someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 I'm not against upgrades as a whole but there are times where it just bugs me. I understand the role it plays but I would rather some games started looking at improving other elements instead. Take, for example, Dead Island. I noticed Fahey on Kotaku talking about the 'level five pipe'. http://kotaku.com/5829491/five-disappointing-things-about-my-first-few-hours-on-dead-island In other words, you have to upgrade your 'pipe-wielding skills' in order to swing a pipe. This can apply to Borderlands and the like too. It just sounds ridiculous. I know it's a staple of RPGs but I don't think other games should integrate these elements, or they should at least improve how it's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Well a bad one would be the first InFamous since most of your upgrades are tied to your characters morality. Which means if you deviate at any point you fuck up the powers you can get. I'm not a huge fan of the "tree" type upgrade paths (like Borderlands, WoW, Diablo, Torchlight, most games like that) It does allow for a tad more refinement but it can lock out other powers you may want access to unless you go for the crappy prerequisite you don't want. Though of course the more linear model is a tad boring I guess. re-forging type unlocks I hate cos most of the time it's a single use forge item on some weapon you're most likely to toss away or move on from. See Witcher 2, Final Fantasy X. So in the end you spend the game with like the same few weapons and then at the end you have like a collection of half a dozen forge items. Regarding FPS upgrades: I hate MP based unlocks. I get it keeps people playing, but damn it's a horrible system. Oh boring upgrades are ones that are like "reduces casting time by 0.2s" I think an unlock system should ultimately provide some nice progression, be well paced, and help to define your character as your own. If you're a ranged guy then let us build up on our ranged stuff, if it's a close up brutal guy then same with that. Most of the basic SPECIAL-type RPG stuff is pretty good. It's simple, but helps to easily redefine your character, and on the fly too. So no locking yourself into a specific class right away. Fallout 3/NV is good. SPECIAL for main upgrades/advancement with the perk system which provides a bunch of level based stuff with no pre-requisites but having your SPECIAL meet it. Which doesn't matter much since if you're wanting to go in guns a blazing and get a mini-gun related perk you likely have your strength up high to match so it's not really locking you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 I prefer stats that change based on your actions rather than making an arbitrary decision to, for example increase strength. Vagrant Story had a good system where weapons would become better at killing a thing the more they were used against said thing. I think Oblivion had a similar system where the more you performed an action the more it improved, using your bow a lot would improve your bow skills, rather than killing 200 rats with your bow and then adding +10 Sword. I think that would apply to swinging a pipe too. If you are an average Joe then you've probably never swung a pipe at a person in anger. Stands to reason that you're going to get better at it as you get used to the weight, the balance, etc. In fact, someone who is a black belt or whatever the ranking is in Ken-do is really just a "level x stick wielder". So why not apply the same logic to pipes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 I kinda disliked Oblivions since I ended up being able to jump buildings in a single bound. Also if you chose wrongly then you couldn't level up overall cos you hardly used the skills put down as Major to level those up. I do think that in theory it's a nice system, but in practice it doesn't work so well. Especially if the enemies or maps favour close combat and you want to level up your bow. Oh Fable 3 did similar btw, it changed your weapon depending on your actions, and the sub-weapons would also upgrade based on "Bone Crusher Hammer" killing 50 Skeletons with it or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr W Phallus Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Oblivion's system was flawed, mostly because you had to choose major skills early on before you know how you're going to play and because of the broken enemy-scaling which could leave you at a high level but relatively weak. From what I've seen, though, it sounds like they've fixed (read - tried to fix) this for Skyrim though, so I look forward to giving it a go. But like TN said, it's nice to level up 'naturally' rather than arbitrarily. Although having some kind of perk system to gain additional abilities and skills every so often is quite nice. As for the whole 'level five pipe' thing. I'm all for having your skills improve the more you use a weapon, but the idea that you can't use it full stop is a bit ludicrous. If it's a weapon you could feasibly pick up, you should be able to use it, albeit badly. Regarding FPS upgrades: I hate MP based unlocks. I get it keeps people playing, but damn it's a horrible system. What about aesthetic ones (like in Reach). You still have a reason to keep playing, but you're not restricted in terms of gameplay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted August 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 Well a bad one would be the first InFamous since most of your upgrades are tied to your characters morality. Which means if you deviate at any point you fuck up the powers you can get. I'm not a huge fan of the "tree" type upgrade paths. Oh boring upgrades are ones that are like "reduces casting time by 0.2s" Those are some good points. I had not thought of those (I kinda had the last one in a different regard) This article may be a lot longer than I expected... Oh Fable 3 did similar btw, it changed your weapon depending on your actions, and the sub-weapons would also upgrade based on "Bone Crusher Hammer" killing 50 Skeletons with it or whatever. They did change in Fable 3 but I seem to recall the end result not always matching the task it required you to do; which, while odd, wasn't always a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) I agree with Dean on the pipe wielding thing. Deus Ex had its moments like that in the beginning when wielding a pistol felt like you were Chuck Shultz the later years. I'm okay with abilities based on morality especially when they make sense. KOTOR had a good system based on morality that fit in with the lore as well. The biggest mistake I see being made in upgrades though, and I see it all the time, is when you pick the wrong sets of upgrades and you either limit or ruin you character and have to start over. KOTOR starts you out as a regular class character and after you leave the first world you class changes to Jedi. If you are a good collector you do all the quests and leave the planet around level 8. Since the game capped you at 20 levels it means that you can max out your jedi at only 12 class levels and limit yourself from getting abilities. There's no possible way of knowing this either. Oblivion also has a pretty stupid system. It's best to make your main skills the ones you use least. That way you can upgrade all your other skills without leveling up. Then you level up when you're ready and max out your level up bonuses. If you don't do it this way the enemies become far more powerful then you and you ragequit. Again, there's no way to know this ahead of time. I find it's best to give the players some option to reset their tech tree and start over. This really should be mandatory. You can limit it or make it cost a bunch of money so that players aren't constantly switching but having to restart a game 20 hours in is usually a deal killer for me. Edited August 12, 2011 by Yantelope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted September 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Guess I should pop back in to share the final article. PLUG! http://pressxordie.com/2011/09/30/the-good-the-bad-and-the-attractiveness-2/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Thanks for quoting that nightmaremode bit there. I posted that in another thread in here and I think it's amazing how many people have completely glossed over that bit of Oblivion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted September 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) It's odd. I was going to include that point about Oblivion but not use an example like that. I just happened to read a thing on Nightmare Mode that included a relevant bit. The fact that I read anything on there is probably most surprising (although Tom's usually pretty alright), since I'd found myself disagreeing with or just plain disliking stuff I'd read before. Edited September 30, 2011 by Hot Heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Here it was, I actually thought it was in this thread. I suppose this thread and the RPGification thread really aren't much different. Not sure if you read that thread though. http://forum.pressxordie.com/index.php?showtopic=1380&view=findpost&p=63034 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted September 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Heh. Looks like I checked it occasionally but managed to miss your bit completely. D'oh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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