Humble Indie Bundle

[Vecha]

And...I guess I meant Grimrock....all this time I thought it was GrimLOCK...

 

 

-walks away in shame-

[deanb]

There's some pretty diverse FPS titles. And one third of AAA games are still not FPS titles (And nor do AAA studios have some sort of promise on saving us from repetitive tiles either). Obviously what constitutes the puzzle part of a puzzle platformers is going to be somewhat different from one game to another. Be it swapping gravity, going fast, or just hitting the right bits in the right order. You've also got the hugely common element of them all being 2D (except the notable 4D example in the game that's yet to exist yet).

But... any AAA game has the hugely common element of being 3D. If that's the most similar thing between games... I'm really not seeing the connection between them. Atari and NES games were 2D and many of those are worlds apart.

I like to think you a pretty smart guy, so I'll assume you're just being purposefully obtuse but just in case:

3D Platformer

 

2D platformer.

 

Also what's with editing my quote? (I'm not totally blind. And I can see the edits in the bb code) I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion in the past and it wasn't pretty.

 

Hang on... If one third of AAA games are not FPS, that means there's not too many FPS, but if one third of games are puzzle platformers, there's a glut of them?

Where the hell are you getting this number that 66% of AAA games are all FPS titles?

 

And really, would you say that the differences between games like Call of Duty and Medal of Honor - ok that's not fair, say CoD and Halo, or even Halo and Prey

Far Cry and Bulletstorm. Hawken and Planetside. No one is denying COD n MOH are aping each other.

 

Also all of the puzzler platformers you listed it's just a simple difference of what method it is that changes how the platforming works. Kind of like how Far Cry has you killing guys with bow and arrow and Hawken has you killing guys with robots. The problem is the same, all that changes is the method of the solution.

 

(Also I did start on this this morning but had to dash.)

[madbassman39]

I loved Croc

[fuchikoma]

Showing pics of a 2D and 3D platformer doesn't really mean anything though... You seemed to be making the argument that a group of games was too samey because, among other things, they're all 2D. So I pointed to the group of games that'd been brought up as the compliment to that, which seems to be all 3D. It encapsulates one group no more than the other - the number of dimensions in the graphical presentation really don't imply that the games are going to be the same.

 

Could you explain what you mean about editing your quotes? Unless there was a slip, everything I put between quote tags was taken from your posts verbatim and not abridged or concatenated. Last time you brought it up, if I remember right, I'd abridged it with the industry standard "[...]" which indicates content has been removed. Then I replied with an emoticon, which was in no way intended to appear that it had been part of your message. (It wouldn't fool anyone anyway as your unedited post was right there before it.) This time, remembering the dramatic reaction to quoting outside of quote boxes, everything within a quote tag was quoted verbatim. I just removed the irrelevant bit where you said

wait I've said this bit before. (And dammit I can't make a quip on repeating myself due to responding to someone clearly not reading what I'm saying due to the fuchi fumble)

(The preceding quote was an excerpt, and does not represent the original post in its entirety.) Sorry if you find that disingenuous, but it seems pointless to quote the entire post to avoid accusations of tampering when I can see no bearing on the discussion whether or not you'd said something you're saying before that.

 

Where the hell are you getting this number that 66% of AAA games are all FPS titles?

(The preceding quote was an excerpt, and does not represent the original post in its entirety.)

I was just responding to your earlier post that I had quoted, where you'd said:

@Fuchi: There's some pretty diverse FPS titles. And one third of AAA games are still not FPS titles

(The preceding quote was an excerpt, and does not represent the original post in its entirety.)

Maybe you were saying that of AAA games, <33.3% are FPS, where to me it sounded like you meant of AAA games, ~%33.3 are not FPS. I'm not big on AAA titles, so either one seems fitting to me (actually, I'm burned out on FPS myself, so the idea 2/3 are FPS seems more plausible when I look at where the biggest hype goes. Surely it must be close if you merge FPS and TPS...)

 

Also all of the puzzler platformers you listed it's just a simple difference of what method it is that changes how the platforming works. Kind of like how Far Cry has you killing guys with bow and arrow and Hawken has you killing guys with robots. The problem is the same, all that changes is the method of the solution.

(The preceding quote was an excerpt, and does not represent the original post in its entirety.) (Code's the same as the others for this fine print, but it won't work.)

 

Sorry, but I'm not seeing that at all. It's not just "how the platforming works," it's what the game fundamentally is. That's like saying that Tetris, Bejewelled, and Minesweeper are all about the same because they're puzzlers, with a simple difference of how the blocks work. Maybe you're just burned out on platformers? Because any of the games I listed are like night and day, with the exception of one level of Psychout and one mechanic in Shift 2. The games are platformers just because they're 2D and involve "going to a place." I'd still posit they're more different than Skyrim and CoD: Black Ops, which I'm really not trying to suggest are similar games themselves. Is

really like this,, or

, just because you run and jump? That's like saying that

is like this because you explore while aiming and shooting at things.

[deanb]

Showing pics of a 2D and 3D platformer doesn't really mean anything though... You seemed to be making the argument that a group of games was too samey because, among other things, they're all 2D. So I pointed to the group of games that'd been brought up as the compliment to that, which seems to be all 3D. It encapsulates one group no more than the other - the number of dimensions in the graphical presentation really don't imply that the games are going to be the same.

Pointing out how most modern games are in 3D and how Atari and NES games are 2D and how all these games are not the same and thus puzzle platformers aren't samey is either being super thick or super obtuse.

 

Wait it was you last time with the quotes When I said "we've had this discussion" I was meaning as in "we, the forum". I didn't realise it was specifically you last time too, and you're doing it with the same person a second time. And you're feigning innocence, then proceeding to show off your skill with the same formatting tool throughout your post (specifically preceding each quotes...). Sure it's the festive period of year but I only have so much holiday cheer that'll buffer shit like this.

 

Given I'd said:

Also I'm pretty sure there' was something about a month or so ago on VG genres over time and it turned out FPS titles actually only amounted to a small overall slither.

It should have been simple to work out that I was not meaning 66% of AAA titles are FPS and 33% are other, but yes that FPS games do not account for even 33% of AAA output.

 

Hmm, I'd not seen Shift 2 (iPhone game). I guess you've not seen

because it turns out it's even worse than I was implying. That's like MOH n COD levels of saminess.

 

 

Maybe you're just burned out on platformers?

Without even trying I've ended up with Braid, And Yet it Moves, Gish, Cave Story, Nightsky, Aquaria, Toki Tori, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Trine, and this would add Closure and Snapshot to the mix.

I dunno gang, what do we think. Do we think maybe Dean is a bit annoyed that most of the game provided by HIB are puzzle-platformers. Do we think that may have been what started this chain.

 

p.s: You "explore" in Serious Sam?

[fuchikoma]

Maybe rather than being thick or obtuse, you're just not making a point with something you mentioned for some reason? It seemed apparent why you said they were all 2D, and I paraphrased to confirm, flesh it out and examine the argument, but rather than try to justify or explain, you just stoop to insults. Classy.

 

I'm actually a big fan of VVVVVV and it's nothing like Shift 1 or 2 except that there are spikes in some places. Really it seems to be more like N+ or Super Meat Boy to me. I mean, VVVVVV is a "Metroidvania" open world where you flip gravity and fall upward, sometimes for screens at a time, and Shift is a single-screen stage-based escape puzzle where you reverse what is solid and what is void, and only fall if you jump off of something. That's really more Outland/Ikaruga to me. They do both kill you freely and don't count lives however...

 

Yeah, we know what started this chain. I'm saying that the only way it really makes sense to lump all those games together as being too similar would be if just the suggestion of a puzzle platformer makes you go "eugh, another one of those!" without even considering how the game plays. If that's the case, there's not much to be done about it but I'm with FDS on this that the diversity of mechanics in those games makes the genre they're grouped under less of an indicator of sameness.

 

And sure, in Serious Sam or Unfinished Swan, you start in one place and wander through assorted areas to get to the end so that could be termed "exploration." Actually, I'm not that big on SS, but I know that in US, your path is entirely linear to boot, so maybe it's just as suspect as an exploratory game - though with that mechanic, you could also be said to explore even an individual room...

 

Now to the quote issue... look - I'm not feigning anything. You are literally the only person on any forum ever since around 1995 who has accused me of altering their quotes when I reply and as far as I am concerned I have still never done it to you, or to anyone. It's a serious charge to accuse someone of, but this is another thing where instead of explaining, you just stand by it. I explained then and now how the other time was not altering your quote; it was replying to it. (The stuff in quotation marks was the quote.) In this instance... what? I put what you said in between quote tags. If you're talking about the randomly resized words, I don't know what that is. I didn't alter anything, but yesterday as well as today, when I quote that post of yours, there are size tags peppered all through it and I figured if I took those out you'd accuse me of editing. If that bothers you, maybe look at code changes made to the board recently? I'm using Opera 11.61 and thus far this issue hasn't come up. So what's the deal? Is it resized words? Not having a timestamp and post number on every quote block? (Because that is extremely laborious, but I made a decent effort in the last post here.) Is it that I don't always quote the entire paragraph or entire post? I'm quoting you with the editor tool and the clipboard exactly as I've done for everyone else, and no one else has thought it to be nefarious.

 

Below, I'll quote your entire post, untouched. Try it yourself and see if it comes out any differently... Maybe you had some code left in the editor tool after editing your own post?

 

(good job on ignoring Fuchi btw)

Woops, didn't mean to, the post did start with "FDS:".

 

So I guess first:

@Fuchi: There's some pretty diverse FPS titles. And one third of AAA games are still not FPS titles (And nor do AAA studios have some sort of promise on saving us from repetitive tiles either). Obviously what constitutes the puzzle part of a puzzle platformers is going to be somewhat different from one game to another. Be it swapping gravity, going fast, or just hitting the right bits in the right order. You've also got the hugely common element of them all being 2D (except the notable 4D example in the game that's yet to exist yet).

 

@FDS: What back pedalling? You said to look at other indie bundles, and it turns out, to my own surprise since I did just throw it out as a rough guestimate, that other bundles fit the "one third rule" too. That's the complete opposite of backpedalling, that's shooting forward in fifth gear. Also you may have missed thequotes from the games own pages but they seem to think they're puzzle-platformers too and I've a feeling the developers of the games might know more than you.

 

And no I really don't have anything against the genre, pretty much my only annoyance being just how many there are. If there was 1/3 of HIB titles being tower defense I'd likely be making this point too. The point isn't against the genre, it's against the saturation of said genre within in a sector of the...wait I've said this bit before. (And dammit I can't make a quip on repeating myself due to responding to someone clearly not reading what I'm saying due to the fuchi fumble)

[deanb]

"Most puzzle platfomers are 2D"

"But so are most Atari and SNES games, and AAA games are mostly 3D"

"This is a 2D Platformer, this is a 3D Platformer. Just in case you truly missed the point"

"But that's doesn't mean anything"

"Okay maybe you really did miss the point"

"You should have explain yourself"

 

And my first response, which you deemed meaningless, was what? I didn't do it just to provide Madbass with nostalgia.

 

And inverting the levels isn't a similarity between the two games? Oh wait no, the only similarity is spikes...

 

Oh god, now you're having "exploration" within games being getting from one end of a linear level to the next. And yet you fail to see the inverting mechanic of Shift and VVVVV.

 

I'm also noticing we're getting miles away from the initial point (well ...fact I guess now) of HIB's being mostly composed of puzzle-platformer, now having to go through each individual game that has ever existed. Which is futile, especially given you're ignoring obvious game mechanics, and trying to spin just random walking around a level as "exploration". Before the comparisons even started there'd need to be a common ground for definition. Which I just can't see happening for some reason.

It doesn't really matter how non-samey the puzzle-platformers bundled into indie bundles get given it'll never be as diverse as two games of completely different genres. Each individual puzzle-platformer game would need to be blowing your socks off each and every time to justify the saturation levels of the indie bundles. And that just ain't happening.

 

As for the quotes you're seemingly the only person that has posts randomly format specific words within quotes from a seemingly specific user. A seemingly random bug which since pointed out to you seems to have failed to materialise within your second time quoting me. What an odd bug...

[fuchikoma]

Now who's altering quotes?

 

"You've also got the hugely common element of them all being 2D (except the notable 4D example in the game that's yet to exist yet)."

"But... any AAA game has the hugely common element of being 3D. If that's the most similar thing between games... I'm really not seeing the connection between them."

"[2D screenshot] [3D screenshot]" (because that shows that all 2D games are the same...)

#204

"Pointing out how most modern games are in 3D and how Atari and NES games are 2D and how all these games are not the same and thus puzzle platformers aren't samey is either being super thick or super obtuse."

 

That was never the point. I pointed to old 2D games because 2D doesn't mean that Super Mario Bros is the same as Ikari Warriors is the same as Clu Clu Land is the same as Tetris, etc. Like I said originally, calling games samey because they're 2D is a weak argument and you could as easily apply it to 3D games.

 

And look closer. The second posting has randomly formatted words too. I assume you didn't even try to quote that post of yours to verify it. You're right - what an odd bug that it comes up only on your posts. Maybe you're messing with code behind the scenes to make it happen then? I don't know - I'm not the guy running the board and I'm not the guy who made the software. I'm just using it like I would for anyone else. If you want to make up crackpot conspiracy theories about me, then knock yourself out. I won't interfere anymore. Don't forget to go back and remove the formatting errors from my previous post to make your last one factual.

[deanb]

Yep those would be the posts I paraphrased. And I never said Super Mario was the same as Ikari Warriors, that's the point you made with saying "but then all 3D games and all 2D games would be the same" when it was clear I was talking, and always had been, about puzzle-platformers. Thus making you "either being super thick or super obtuse."

 

As for the accusation that I'm purposefully tweaking the code behind the scenes in order to make your quotes come out weird, I wouldn't even know where to start. I've frequently made calls for someone who knows their shit with PHP, HTML and CSS for help on here and on the blog. Why would I even want to go out of my way to tweak the forum software to specifically target you if I could? What would even be my motive?

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah that's really weird. When I go back and quote that same post it doesn't do the random different sized words, but it also doesn't make any sense that fuchi would be doing that manually.

Edited December 21, 2012 by TheMightyEthan

[Vecha]

Why can't we get along?

 

[deanb]

New Android HIB, Dungeon Defenders, SuperHexagon, Beat Hazard Ultra, Dynamite Jack, Solar 2, n NightSky HD.

 

I should note that Dungeon Defenders kinda runs like crap and had been free until they pulled it from Play end of last year due to it being too costly to modify to use Plays CDN. So yeah don't get this if your aim is to get DD for Android. 

[deanb]

http://blog.humblebundle.com/post/65643651960/now-its-easier-to-add-games-to-your-steam-library

 

They've upgraded the way it deals with Steam keys, now a bit more like the original method. It's had a bit of flack so they are "listening to feedback". One of the big ones is that if you've duplicate of games in the bundles, they're now poof gone instead of being able to gift them on to a friend (of which HIB seems to be taking the stance that gifting to friends isn't personal. They've already defined them as non-commercial, which is fair enough and fine for them to take a stance on, but gifting seems to be a target they've taken into account and not an unintended side effect)

[TheMightyEthan]

Well that's lame, and makes me less likely to purchase Humble Bundles if I know that any games I already have will just evaporate.

[toxicitizen]

I find it hard to be too bothered by this. The way people have been trading and giving away keys was almost abusive. While it wasn't really enforced until now, they've said it in the past that you were never supposed to just give away whichever games you didn't want. I mean, shit, it's for charity. Might as well throw 'em a few bucks.

Edited November 1, 2013 by FLD

[Saturnine Tenshi]

But I never allocate money to charity!

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

You're a terrible person for not supporting the EFF.

[TheMightyEthan]

Well for me I'm not bothered so much as it decreases my perceived value of the bundles.  I never resold my keys, but giving them away to people who might want them has a non-zero value to me, so when they take that away it reduces the value of the bundles and makes me less inclined to by them/inclined to pay less for them.

[CrowKnow]

Umm... so you can now gift individual steam keys using the new key redemption stuff?

http://support.humblebundle.com/customer/portal/articles/1356336-gifting-steam-keys

 

Am I missing something or isn't this... the exact opposite of what they were trying to do?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Yeah it's odd. I guess they'll get people who don't click on the gift link? IDK... I haven't tried it myself.

[deanb]

https://www.humblebundle.com/store

 

They now have a proper store. Has a sale on of up to 75% off. Now means Prison Architect is about the right price now too.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

Has this really not been posted in for so long? Hope I'm in the right thread!

 

Just been looking at the latest mobile bundle which is pay over the average $3.71, and further down the page one of the top contributors at $25 is going by the name 3.72. Oops! Wonder if they've realised yet.

[deanb]

I think they became so frequent there wasn't much point posting each time. I actually own all but two of those from Amazon. Sorcery 2 n King of Dragon Pass, I guess can see what else can come through to be worth it.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

The new Ninty bundle looks good. Quite a few games I'd like to try and I'd be more likely to actually play them on a console than my laptop but it's America only. Super annoying, but still interesting that they've got Nintendo keys at all. Hopefully they'll do an international one some day.

[deanb]

https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly?gamemaker_weekly

 

One of the more different bundles. Includes a bunch of games, but at the higher tiers includes Game Maker add-ons and upgrades as well as source for some of the games to play with. I might grab it, not as much an interest in many of the games, but having some code to play with I find is a useful way of learning.