RPG-ification in games

[TheMightyEthan]

Alright, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to say that I'm somewhere in the middle. I like my stat-whore games where I micro-manage every aspect of the character and equipment, always comparing numbers to see whether I should buy this new sword or stick with my old one, but not every game should be like that. That kind of system only works for more traditional RPGs that tend to be slower-paced anyway. For action/adventure games I prefer the Zelda-style of upgrades, where for the most part you get specific things in specific locations that really change your abilities (like the hookshot), but then there are other more minor upgrades hidden around the world (like the pieces of heart). Then there's another category of games that I don't think needs anything like that. I hate the gameplay changing unlocks of games like MW2. If I'm playing a competitive game like that I don't want to be unable to win simply because I haven't played as much as that other guy, so he has better equipment. In that arena if the dev really really wants to have unlocks I think Bungie did it right for Halo: Reach, where you can customize your character but it's all aesthetic, nothing that makes you more powerful than anyone else.

[madbassman39]

I personally like it. Not an XP bar, but I like the idea (for single player only) that the more you use a gun the better your skill becomes. or a type of weapon. We don't need to have XP boosts and what not in multiplayer, but I also enjoy gun unlocks, it gives me a goal to reach, something to work at that makes my play style unique, if there are multiple options of paths to unlock like BF:BC2, but I also understand why people don't like them. As a skilled player in BF:BC2 (I know, I'm very modest) I can chose the weakest weapon and still beat anyone with a better gun because I'm a better player (in theory, I'm not that bad) which is why I like it.

[Yantelope]

I don't think that you get better guns in MW2 though. You get different guns. You can't really say that the M16 gives you an unfair advantage over someone with an M4. The only thing it does limit you from doing is filling certain roles like shooting down helicopters if the SAMs are still locked.

 

BFBC2 didn't seem the same though. It did seem as though more advanced weapons dealt more damage or were more accurate than starter weapons. I really hate this because if you're just picking up the game it is really frustrating learning the game while you're at a disadvantage.

 

So for multiplayer: Unlocks, okay. More powerful unlocks or weapons that give you an advantage? Not okay.

[madbassman39]

So for multiplayer: Unlocks, okay. More powerful unlocks or weapons that give you an advantage? Not okay.

 

I think that the advantage is unfair to new players, but I do like the idea that you can unlock a weapon that has different stats and acts differently, allowing for a different play style.

[Vargras]

BFBC2 didn't seem the same though. It did seem as though more advanced weapons dealt more damage or were more accurate than starter weapons. I really hate this because if you're just picking up the game it is really frustrating learning the game while you're at a disadvantage.

 

That's what I really liked about the unlock system in BF2142. Each class could choose anything, really. You didn't have a single, "final" weapon for the class, but rather had two different weapons, and both had a unique purpose. Like the Engineer class could either get an anti-tank rifle, or an anti-air rocket launcher. Could you still use the anti-tank rifle on aircraft, or the anti-air rocket launcher on tanks? Sure, but it wasn't as effective. None of the unlocks were really replaced either - they all had uses.

[TheMightyEthan]

I should say I'm with Yante: I'm okay with unlocking "different" weapons/etc for multiplayer, just not "better" ones.

[Yantelope]

MW2 might have been a bad example too because there were definitely some OP weapons at launch but most of those (dual 1887s) got nerfed so that I don't think any one gun is better than another.

[Luftwaffles]

So for multiplayer: Unlocks, okay. More powerful unlocks or weapons that give you an advantage? Not okay.

 

I think that the advantage is unfair to new players, but I do like the idea that you can unlock a weapon that has different stats and acts differently, allowing for a different play style.

 

I think the issue with the BC2 unlocks isn't with the weapons, which I find to be all quite good and fairly balanced, but with the gadgets that you have to unlock. A level 0 player is still going to kill people with an AEK, but the lack of any way to dish out ammo or revive teammates (you don't unlock the ammo box or defibrillator) until later broke the BC2 unlocks for me. It took me a long time to just get to level 1 just because (as the medic class in particular) you had to kill rather than support, the game gave you no choice in that respect.

[DocSeuss]

I enjoyed AC2's villa upgrade system, but it was completely broken, unfortunately. I upgraded absolutely everything in the villa about halfway through the game and I proceeded to have practically infinite money. Had there been more and more expensive upgrades I would've absolutely loved that system.

 

How did you feel about Brotherhood's?

 

I've always felt something's lacking, like a sort of asset management or something. Like... it'd be neat if I was buying these businesses to fund my little assassin empire, and skill points could be spent on things like the Assassins' stealth, damage, or special skills (so, like, you could create a seduction expert or a poison expert with the XP they get from missions) and use the money to equip the Assassins with various levels of equipment.

[RockyRan]

You're really not being fair I think. Borderlands guns changed rate of fire, elemental type, scope, and even the actual ordinance fired whether it's burst shotgun shells, spread shells, single rockets, spread rockets, rapid fire rockets. I don't know how you could have more variety. I also don't know why having the numbers appear is a sin as opposed to the invisible numbers that drive everything in oblivion and fallout. Additionally in Borderlands you get different types of shields and upgrade drops. I'm thinking perhaps your personal tastes are overruling your objectivity in this regard.

 

It's all about the focus. Like I said, the focus in Borderlands is number chasing when speaking from a bird's eye view. Changing out weapons is still very stat heavy and numbers are being thrown at you for no real reason. Imagine playing the game without any numbers whatsoever, Oblivion style. Dreadful, isn't it? That's because the focus is ultimately in the numbers, with the different weapon/ammo types being essentially window dressing.

 

Numbers appearing in games is not inherently a sin, but I'm saying there has been far too much reliance on having numbers and using those numbers to control the progress of a game rather than have said progress come organically. For me, the former system, which is quickly being adopted across many genres, is more boring. It works, but in my opinion, it's lazier. There's a time and place for everything, including showing stats and having RPG-like progression, but from my perspective I'm seeing far too many game developers thinking it's automatically better for any game to have them, and I'm saying otherwise. Not every game needs to be a stat and grindfest, and I'm even including RPGs in that. Like you said, Oblivion hides these stats behind a black box, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's one of the reasons why I like Oblivion so much, because it's more about the actual game and experience of role-playing and exploration rather than comparing spreadsheets and grinding for EXP. And I'm not saying that's how every game should be, I'm just saying doing the opposite isn't how every game should be either.

 

How did you feel about Brotherhood's?

 

I've always felt something's lacking, like a sort of asset management or something. Like... it'd be neat if I was buying these businesses to fund my little assassin empire, and skill points could be spent on things like the Assassins' stealth, damage, or special skills (so, like, you could create a seduction expert or a poison expert with the XP they get from missions) and use the money to equip the Assassins with various levels of equipment.

 

 

I haven't played Brotherhood :/

[DocSeuss]

How did you feel about Brotherhood's?

 

I've always felt something's lacking, like a sort of asset management or something. Like... it'd be neat if I was buying these businesses to fund my little assassin empire, and skill points could be spent on things like the Assassins' stealth, damage, or special skills (so, like, you could create a seduction expert or a poison expert with the XP they get from missions) and use the money to equip the Assassins with various levels of equipment.

 

 

I haven't played Brotherhood :/

After having played AC2, how could you not have played Brotherhood?

[MasterDex]

BFBC2 didn't seem the same though. It did seem as though more advanced weapons dealt more damage or were more accurate than starter weapons. I really hate this because if you're just picking up the game it is really frustrating learning the game while you're at a disadvantage.

 

That's what I really liked about the unlock system in BF2142. Each class could choose anything, really. You didn't have a single, "final" weapon for the class, but rather had two different weapons, and both had a unique purpose. Like the Engineer class could either get an anti-tank rifle, or an anti-air rocket launcher. Could you still use the anti-tank rifle on aircraft, or the anti-air rocket launcher on tanks? Sure, but it wasn't as effective. None of the unlocks were really replaced either - they all had uses.

 

Yeah, 2142 did it right. For Assault, which is what I played most, you had the standard assault rifles (the Scar and the FA-37) then you unlocked the Voss and the Baur. The Voss, though it was often considered overpowered, was a short-range, quick-fire rifle. In practice it was like the P90 in CoD4, useful in a pinch but not the weapon you wanted to carry around in open spaces. The Baur sat on the otherside, being a long-range, heavy assault rifle with a lower RoF and higher recoil but deadly in the hands of anyone that knows how to wield it. Personally, I stuck with the standard weapons which provided good trade-offs between the two unlocked weapons. That was perfect balancing. I don't need 10 different weapons that are more or less the same. Give me weapons that compliment each other and fill different roles.

 

As to the RPG-ification of games, I don't have too much of a problem with it as long as it's done right. I enjoy persistence and progress in games as it helps to keep things feeling fresh but throwing in a bunch of stats that don't really mean all that much when you get down to it is pointless. It's all about finding what works best for your game. Levelling up can work for many games but as Ethan said above, there's many different ways of providing a sense of progression and developers should stop relying on the easiest one.

[RockyRan]

How did you feel about Brotherhood's?

 

I've always felt something's lacking, like a sort of asset management or something. Like... it'd be neat if I was buying these businesses to fund my little assassin empire, and skill points could be spent on things like the Assassins' stealth, damage, or special skills (so, like, you could create a seduction expert or a poison expert with the XP they get from missions) and use the money to equip the Assassins with various levels of equipment.

 

 

I haven't played Brotherhood :/

After having played AC2, how could you not have played Brotherhood?

 

Moneys, time. I'll pick it up eventually. I don't mind being "behind" the release (I played AC2 for the first time like in July).

[Hot Heart]

I liked ACII but, yeah, I'm not exactly rushing to play Brotherhood. Not too excited for Revelations really, either.

[DocSeuss]

How did you feel about Brotherhood's?

 

I've always felt something's lacking, like a sort of asset management or something. Like... it'd be neat if I was buying these businesses to fund my little assassin empire, and skill points could be spent on things like the Assassins' stealth, damage, or special skills (so, like, you could create a seduction expert or a poison expert with the XP they get from missions) and use the money to equip the Assassins with various levels of equipment.

 

 

I haven't played Brotherhood :/

After having played AC2, how could you not have played Brotherhood?

 

Moneys, time. I'll pick it up eventually. I don't mind being "behind" the release (I played AC2 for the first time like in July).

 

Wow. I thought I was late. I picked it up in July of 2010.

 

I liked ACII but, yeah, I'm not exactly rushing to play Brotherhood. Not too excited for Revelations really, either.

 

Brotherhood is the step above AC2 that AC2 was from AC. They fixed combat, for one.

 

To get slightly back on topic, I can't remember if I mentioned how System Shock 2 did XP--you got them as a quest reward as a currency that would allow you to improve your various skills. They were like a better version of Bioshock's ADAM, 'cause there was never any "WILL YOU MURDER THIS GIRL FOR XP?" morality shit.

Edited September 22, 2011 by DocSeuss