The day I stopped loving Nintendo

[CorgiShinobi]

Not sure I get you there, Atom. Initially, I thought it was understood that we didn't actually "love" Nintendo. Then I saw that some people did. Which is fine. I'm just clarifying my position.

Yeah that's fine, but I've been talking about people who have this (almost) parental fascination with Nintendo. As if they've become a bastard child from Nintendo's "neglect."

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I understand. I was really only responding to what you said to me. 'Cause I didn't understand what you were trying to get across.

[Yantelope]

@Atmosk, I may have to backpedal a bit here and admit that Nintendo didn't state that they weren't targeting core gamers anymore, at least I can't find a quote to that nature right now. With that said I think it's pretty obvious given the companies releases from the GC era through the Wii that they clearly turned there back on the core gamer and it's kind of bit them in the but now that the Wii fad is dying out. They may have lied to themselves, saying they were targeting a broader audience but I think that the general apathy toward the Wii from gamers kind of provides proof that they weren't.

 

Your expectations. A company doesn't technically do what's best for their customer, but what's best for them. That's a business and while it sounds apathetic, it's the true nature of any profit-based industry. Again, Nintendo isn't someone's mother who reaches out with a loving arm; it is a corporation that sells you electronics.

 

I know that a company does what's best for them. At one point what they thought was best for them was something I liked. It's not anymore. That's what I'm getting at.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Yantelope

[FredEffinChopin]

I think it's only natural considering the fact that for 2 straight console generations during a very significant developmental stage of the medium's adoption as a serious passtime, Nintendo dominated, without question. There are plenty of gamers whose childhood and introduction to gaming happened during the Nintendo era. Sega was doing it's thing, but Nintendo was a household name, and practically synonymous with video games at the time. While it wasn't my cup of tea (past the first-party titles), the N64 made a lot of people happy too, so we're looking at a legion of gamers who were well served by Nintendo consoles for about 15 years, and more if Gamecube was their console of choice. The fact that people felt an attachment to them isn't surprising to me, as I remember how long it took me to get a Playstation when I finally realized that Nintendo wasn't going to come through for me this time. I don't think anyone would take a bullet for Shigeru Miyamoto when they say they loved them, but just that they brought them so much great entertainment in the past.

 

I hear the complaints about feeling neglected too. I understand that they're in the business of business, but it's like hearing your favorite band go to shit, or adopt a poppier sound to appeal to a broader audience. The people whose backs that band's success was built on are bound to feel a little resentment.

Edited October 19, 2011 by FredEffinChopin

[excel_excel]

much like NSMBWii being a generic copycat of the Mario Bros formula but with the one additional mechanic of 4-player co-op as the only thing it really brings new to the table.

Don't forget making you use the Wiimote on its side instead of letting you use the Classic or Gamecube controller. Noooo, that would just make TOO MUCH GODDAMNED SENSE!

 

Pointing this out, you could plug in a nunchuck and play it that way. I remember reading that on the original kotakuites community forum, and I never said it. BUT DAMN IT YOU COULD USE THE NUNCHUCK

Edited October 19, 2011 by excel_excel

[CorgiShinobi]

Yantelope, on October 19, 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

 

@Atmosk, I may have to backpedal a bit here and admit that Nintendo didn't state that they weren't targeting core gamers anymore, at least I can't find a quote to that nature right now. With that said I think it's pretty obvious given the companies releases from the GC era through the Wii that they clearly turned there back on the core gamer and it's kind of bit them in the but now that the Wii fad is dying out. They may have lied to themselves, saying they were targeting a broader audience but I think that the general apathy toward the Wii from gamers kind of provides proof that they weren't.

 

I'll continue with the parental example, just this once more.

 

Think of the "core gamer" as a first child. A parents essentially defines themselves through how they interact with the first born. Over a few years the child grows up and everything seems like a picture perfect example of a family. Then there comes the second child. The parents find that they can't technically repeat the same process on the second child, but now the first child has become envious of the attention the second child receives.

 

Of course, this is only an example; no one should feel like a child of Nintendo.

 

Now, there's a saying in business (and advertising) that goes, "When you target everyone, you target no one." Nintendo wanted to expanded their audience, not abandon anyone. The problem is when you're adopting a "non-gamer" consumer into your audience, you're biting off more than you can chew. The "core gamer" already understands video games, and so they can become a frequent customer much easier. Show off a few great games, make good on a few promises and you're set.

 

A non-gamer essentially needs to be reared up into the knowledge we've had for years. It takes more effort, and so much so that I believe Nintendo forgot to balance their attention. Quite frankly, it still doesn't take much to convince core gamers. However, the opinion a core gamer has on a video game company will be more firm than that of anyone else. So while Nintendo has seen some success with a "casual audience," the company will still need to balance their attention because those consumers still have the potential to leave.

 

If you look at the Wii U, it's suppose to be this balance of the audience Nintendo created. From my perception, they've finally realized that they need to focus more attention to the core gamer. Still, attention still needs to be maintained for the other half of their audience. See where I was going with the above parental example? The first child has already been raised (to a degree), but the second child needs a period of upbringing before it can act like the first.

 

EDIT: I lost part of my post, but the part that was auto-saved should still work.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Atomsk88

[Yantelope]

I think what you are overlooking is the impact of Sony and Microsoft on the marketplace. Sony and Microsoft started throwing far more capital at gaming and may have forced Nintendo's hand slightly but for whatever reason it seems to me as though Nintendo didn't expand on their existing market which had already been mostly stolen by Sony and MS. Nintendo misfired on the business front with the N64 with cartridges and again on the GC front with their silly mini-dvds and other publishing flubs. The core audience had already begun to lose patience with Nintendo and Nintendo said they didn't want to compete with Sony and MS and decided to capture a new market.

 

A better analogy is that of a dating couple. At one point you had a happy relationship. You were really interested in that person and you had a great time together. Then that person makes bad decisions either through arrogance or just stupidity. Then the relationship has begun to be tested by another courtier asking for your affections, offering you the things you'd been missing. Rather than try to win you back your lover just runs off with some old geezer. That's pretty much what Nintendo did.

[CorgiShinobi]

They do have an impact, but then look at how much of that impact was a response in relation to Nintendo.

 

Sony and Microsoft have put themselves into a funny position. They have the adult male audience down because the games associated with their consoles are relevant to the adult male interest. Of course, now they want a piece of the new consumer pie that Nintendo brought about some odd years ago.

 

However, Sony and Microsoft are aware of the core gamer perception to Nintendo. If they focus too much, they end up in the same boat. Don't focus enough and they're basically wasting resources. That's why, if you ask me about some of Sony and Microsoft's motion and/or "casual" games, they've tried a type of "pseudo-core" game. Something that's suppose to have the imagery of a core game, but the mechanics that non-gamers flock to.

 

Except you can't fool core gamers with those games, and non-gamers might view the game as "not for them." They don't know better given how few their gaming resources may be.

 

I think I might leave the conversation here for a while. I've already spent, like, two hours on this one topic and that midterm is going to be a nightmare... So a few key points to move the discussion along!

 

-Hardware (as previously mentioned by Yant) vs. Software by The Big Three

 

-How many unique titles in comparison to sequels (For example, while I may have 31 PS3 games and 19 Wii games, about half of the PS3 games are in a series, i.e. Dead Space, Uncharted, BioShock, etc.)

 

-Innovation vs. Tradition

[Yantelope]

I agree with all that you're saying about the core vs. casual games and E3 this year left me feeling pretty underwhelmed with both Sony and MS. Sony and MS have the resources to try to continue their core games whilst expanding with peripherals. I just feel that these peripherals are doomed to failure eventually. Has the sixaxis controler ever done anything meaningful in a videogame other than balance beams? Anywho, without going to the whole motion control debate I'm going to steer back to the competition between Sony and Nintendo.

 

Sony attacked Nintendo on the publisher front. They made it very cheap for people to make and produce games for their system and they stole away a ton of big name developers and publishers. That was actually the real genius of the PSX. Nintendo never fought to win these people back and instead kept going down their own little path. I still think the Wii was a fad and only extended Nintendo's life in the hardware business. It seems to me quite possible that the Wii U could share none of it's predecessors success and become the Nintendo version of the DC. At any rate, Nintendo's offering, a current gen system 7 years too late? That's not going to win me back anytime soon. I've moved on and I'm happy with my new suitor, for now.

[Strangelove]

Yeah, those shitty 90(maybe they were 80) dollars N64 cartridges were a drag. While the graphics were better(though fuzzy) than the PS1s, it had a really hard time doing video and it didnt have the cd audio quality either. I understand it, but it still cracks me up how it couldnt do the basic stuff, even if it was the most powerful system at the time. Oh, N64....

 

I have to say, when the Dreamcast was the big dog for that one year or whatever, I never imagined it would fail. It just didnt seem likely. I have nothing but fond memories of it then a total fucking blackout and then it going out of production. Maybe some of you older guys remember.....did people see the end of the Dreamcast coming or did it just happen out of nowhere?

I feel that if it can happen to the Dreamcast, it could happen to the Wiiu.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Well, this is certainly taking a turn from the thread's original topic. I went with the PS3 this generation because it has the best console hardware and games I want to play. That simple. It wasn't really a stab at Nintendo(after selling their console). I just made a poor decision in being an early adopter.

 

Honestly, I feel sort of distant wrt the whole core vs. casual discussion. Not because it doesn't affect me, or because it's never left me incensed. But at this point, I've completely stopped following E3, GDC and most all press conferences. It just leaves me agitated and underwhelmed. The conferences make me feel like I'm watching a flock of birds that don't know what the hell they're doing so they're reduced to colliding mid-air and talking about how astounding their new DLC and Facebook programs are.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

The Wii is probably my favorite console I've ever owned, if only because it plays second fiddle to my gaming PCs. Taken in that context, the Wii is an awesome machine that's provided me with many hours of great gameplay. I'll never be able to dig into all the great games for the system; there's still a huge catalog I never got around to buying (Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports Resort, Epic Yarn, Monster Hunter Tri, Little King's Story, Sin & Punishment 2, etc.). I can certainly see where someone who picked up the system expecting a full hardcorez catalog like the PS3 or 360 would be disappointed though.

[excel_excel]

Yeah, those shitty 90(maybe they were 80) dollars N64 cartridges were a drag. While the graphics were better(though fuzzy) than the PS1s, it had a really hard time doing video and it didnt have the cd audio quality either. I understand it, but it still cracks me up how it couldnt do the basic stuff, even if it was the most powerful system at the time. Oh, N64....

 

I have to say, when the Dreamcast was the big dog for that one year or whatever, I never imagined it would fail. It just didnt seem likely. I have nothing but fond memories of it then a total fucking blackout and then it going out of production. Maybe some of you older guys remember.....did people see the end of the Dreamcast coming or did it just happen out of nowhere?

I feel that if it can happen to the Dreamcast, it could happen to the Wiiu.

 

Everyone seems to forget the Saturn which completely and utterly bombed, far worse than the Dreamcast. Dreamcast was the nail in the coffin, but the Saturn was the thing that put Sega in that coffin. Nintendo haven't had a 'saturn' yet at least. No matter how many people naysay the 3DS its selling more than the DS did in the same time period.

[RockyRan]

The Wii is probably my favorite console I've ever owned, if only because it plays second fiddle to my gaming PCs. Taken in that context, the Wii is an awesome machine that's provided me with many hours of great gameplay. I'll never be able to dig into all the great games for the system; there's still a huge catalog I never got around to buying (Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports Resort, Epic Yarn, Monster Hunter Tri, Little King's Story, Sin & Punishment 2, etc.). I can certainly see where someone who picked up the system expecting a full hardcorez catalog like the PS3 or 360 would be disappointed though.

 

Not sure what you're getting at. When I bought the Wii I had never owned any other console not made by Nintendo, and even with that severe lack of outside experience I found the Wii to have an absolutely abysmal library, even after digging the bottom of the barrel and trying out games in desperation to find something good. I didn't buy the system expecting anything other than a great library of Nintendo games and I was incredibly disappointed. The only Nintendo console I ever sold mid-generation and the only time I went out and bought a non-Nintendo console. It was that horrible, and to this day I don't regret that decision for a single second.

 

There's a difference between "a full hardcorez catalog" and a catalog that isn't laughably barren. When even (former) fanboys say that a Nintendo console was barren there's obviously something wrong.

[excel_excel]

The Wii is probably my favorite console I've ever owned, if only because it plays second fiddle to my gaming PCs. Taken in that context, the Wii is an awesome machine that's provided me with many hours of great gameplay. I'll never be able to dig into all the great games for the system; there's still a huge catalog I never got around to buying (Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports Resort, Epic Yarn, Monster Hunter Tri, Little King's Story, Sin & Punishment 2, etc.). I can certainly see where someone who picked up the system expecting a full hardcorez catalog like the PS3 or 360 would be disappointed though.

 

Not sure what you're getting at. When I bought the Wii I had never owned any other console not made by Nintendo, and even with that severe lack of outside experience I found the Wii to have an absolutely abysmal library, even after digging the bottom of the barrel and trying out games in desperation to find something good. I didn't buy the system expecting anything other than a great library of Nintendo games and I was incredibly disappointed. The only Nintendo console I ever sold mid-generation and the only time I went out and bought a non-Nintendo console. It was that horrible, and to this day I don't regret that decision for a single second.

 

There's a difference between "a full hardcorez catalog" and a catalog that isn't laughably barren. When even (former) fanboys say that a Nintendo console was barren there's obviously something wrong.

 

But it has a stronger library in terms of third party software than the Gamecube. If you had a PS2 and Gamecube, the gamecube was pretty much a Nintendo game machine. Having a Wii and a PS3, there is still a library of games that are great and can only be played on Wii. If it had such a dismal library then why were their so many people asking for ports of Wii titles, like Muramasa, Little King's Story, Sonic Colors, Monster Hunter Tri, No More Heroes 1 & 2 (which did get a port but was a bit of a botch job), Tatsunoko VS Capcom, Boom Blox (which was prime for a PS move port)

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I wasn't getting at anything, other than that I've personally found the catalog to be just fine. Maybe it's just the pace at which I pick up games, or the fact that I play a lot more PC games, but I'm fine with the Wii's library. It's not what was promised nor what was expected, but for my needs it's more than enough. I know that's not the case for everyone though.

[Yantelope]

On the topic of the Saturn and the DC: The Saturn was a huge failure for many reasons, the primary one being the cost of the hardware and the ridiculous architecture. The DC was killed by the PS2 and the fact that you could literally burn DC games on a standard CD burner. I don't know that NIntendo has to have two successive failures to leave the hardware market but seeing as to how they always make a profit off hardware ($250 3DS, I'm looking at you) It's hard to see them really leaving it immediately. If however they can't sell consoles that make a profit (Wii U) then they will almost certainly not enter into a race with MS and Sony because Nintendo can't wait 3 years to make a profit off a system launch.

[Johnny]

I think, p4, a lot of it has to do with money. Picking up a Wii just for the few games I feel are worth my money... just isn't worth the money. xD

If I had more money to spend, then sure, such a purchase would be more viable.

[TheMightyEthan]

What Johnny said. The only reason I even have a Wii at all is because my brother never played his and said I could have it. I would have gladly bought SMG 1&2 and Twilight Princess (if my brother hadn't already had them), but that really is the extent of my interest in the Wii, and I have tried most of the games people give as examples of other great titles (getting ready to try Monster Hunter after I finish TP). I've also preordered Skyward Sword. Nintendo makes some great games that I really want, but that don't in themselves justify the purchase of a console.

 

Now, maybe I'll luck out again and stumble into a free Wii U somehow, but I doubt it, and if not I'll be faced with either missing some pretty freakin killer apps or buying an entire console for at most like 4 games. THAT's why I want Nintendo to start publishing for other plats.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I know we've talked about this before on Twitter, but I honestly feel the same way about Xbox and PlayStation. Sure, I'd like to play Halo and Gears, or maybe Resistance and Uncharted, but those exclusives aren't enough to make me buy the consoles, especially when I've got a gaming PC to play multi-plats. It's why I think some sort of platform convergence is in the cards for the future.

[Nezacant]

When I was young, I had my Atari, my NES, my Genisis, and even an old IBM Basic (Didn't have a commodore). I loved them all but Nintendo was always #1 to me. They had the games that I couldn't put down. When they went to the SNES they further solidified themselves as my #1 choice of go to gaming pleasure.

 

The point that started to change for me was during the N64 era. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED my N64, there were some great games on that system. But when I got a Playstation for Christmas, several years after I got my launch day N64, I began to realize the limitation the N64 had with their stubborn refusal to move from silicon game cartrages to compact disk. The cartrages were more expensive, held less data, and was what started the trend of 3rd parties moving on to different hardware... which is where that whole issue with Nintendo started.

 

Final Fantasy back in the day was always associated with Nintendo. At the time, no one ever thought they'd see the games on any other system. When Squaresoft started to develop FFVII, it was being developed for the "Ultra 64". They also assumed that Nintendo would be going to a better media format. Needless to say, when that wasn't the case, a game the epic size of FFVII couldn't possibly go on the platform everyone came to know and love it on. That's only one 3rd party developer story. What I am getting at here is that the whole lack of 3rd party support for Nintendo started long before the Wii and gamecube. It caused gamers to migrate to other systems to play the types of games they wanted to play.

 

This console generation has been an odd one. One where I believe history will not be able to "declare" a winner of the generation. (The real winner of this gen is IBM) Gaming has become less about hardware and more about the games themselves, which is great for the gamer. You get better games this way. Nintendo saw an opportunity to tap into a market that was going to make them a shit ton of money, however while doing so, they alienated a lot of third party devs (again) which in turn alienates a lot of their original fan base.

 

The casual market is a very fickle one with a short attention span. The Wii U will have a hard time capturing the same audience they did with the Wii. I believe, if the Wii U doesn't do well and the 3DS continues to disappoint, Nintendo will go the way of Sega and become a software company. Lets be honest. The hardcore gamers are the group that will keep coming back, the casual will not. The Casual market is moving away from game consoles all together and going to things like their iPad. Nintendo would have to have a console that blows everyone out of the water AND turn a profit AND all the while competing against 3 of the largest companies in the world. (Sony, Microsoft, and Apple) They have an uphill battle ahead.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

I preferred the N64 carts for the short load times, but it sucked for sound and obviously no CGI (which was a big deal at the time).

[Yantelope]

This is that early FF on N64 tech demo.

The casual market is a very fickle one with a short attention span. The Wii U will have a hard time capturing the same audience they did with the Wii....
...Lets be honest. The hardcore gamers are the group that will keep coming back, the casual will not. The Casual market is moving away from game consoles all together and going to things like their iPad.

This. Edited October 20, 2011 by Yantelope

[TheMightyEthan]

I know we've talked about this before on Twitter, but I honestly feel the same way about Xbox and PlayStation. Sure, I'd like to play Halo and Gears, or maybe Resistance and Uncharted, but those exclusives aren't enough to make me buy the consoles, especially when I've got a gaming PC to play multi-plats. It's why I think some sort of platform convergence is in the cards for the future.

I agree that the exclusives on the other consoles aren't enough either. Thing is, the PS3 and 360 have good 3rd party support in addition to their exclusives. Practically all the Wii has are its exclusives, and they just aren't enough.

 

None of the consoles can justify a purchase purely on the exclusives, but unlike the PS3 and 360 the exclusives are all the Wii really has.

[Yantelope]

Yes, and Nintendo may talk a lot of wooing developers but when they keep making such proprietary and technologically ancient systems it makes it almost impossible for developers to keep supporting them properly. Sure the Wii U will have 360 games, finally, for about a year until the 720 is released and we're right back where we started.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Yantelope