The "Occupy" Movement

[Mal]

Pretty damn spot on Dean however... Yeah, we could have a revolution but the problems remains... what are the solutions? Also to change something like the actual Constitution will met with some strong resistance. Hell, look at how damn hard it is to amend it.

 

And that video... I might do it.

[Luftwaffles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=huwDihrrR_k

So I live about 20 minutes from here (Eureka is the county seat of where I live) and saw this posted on tumblr a few minutes ago and got all excited because it's where I live and it's the source I (unfortunately) get my local news from. Oddly enough, the account that posted it was also my high school PE teacher. So, small world I guess.

And really, this video highlights most of my issues with the movement. I'm all for advancement of the middle class, I'm all for reform of the banking system, but really, the people in this video (the people I see every day when I drive by and the people who are the face of the movement here) are fuckwits. They don't have any idea what they're talking about, and really, I blame them for the movement not taking off here. The protesters mean well, they do try, but as a result of the local homeless population becoming increasingly integrated in the movement, the feelings and ideas coming from the local courthouse steps are becoming more and more fragmented, catering to a wholly different idea than the original message. Just today I saw a sign that said "1 in 4 Veterans are Homeless". That all fine and dandy, and I'm glad they're trying to encourage the community to be more receptive to homeless people, but it's got nothing to do with Occupy Wall Street. If they're going to push their own agendas it would be best for OWS for them to distance themselves from the organization. This is just protesting for the sake of protesting.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, but I'm not quite fully sober and quite angry.

[FredEffinChopin]

Wow, I just noticed this topic now, coincidentally, after I just spent a few hours there today. I wasn't there as a member really, I wanted to interview some people for a paper that I should be writing right now instead of doing this. While most of my points of view on this were already expressed in this thread, I may as well add my perspective in my own words.

 

The primary issue with or criticism that I (depending on what time of the day you ask me) and many others have of the movement is its lack of a solid direction, which almost destines it to failure in at least one way, which is to say that without a goal there can't be a victory. When this began I laughed at the idea of it lasting for more than a few days. When I realized that there were a good number of people in for the long haul though, I started becoming annoyed by the execution of it. Truth is, I'm with them on most of their targets and grievances (that I'm aware of anyway), and I was totally heartened by the sight of people actually taking to the streets to stand up for themselves, once I was actually convinced that it wasn't a passing thing. The way it was going down though, made it totally look like a wasted opportunity to me, a chance to get a mass of people using one voice to make a change, and then not being able to think of any specific thing that could be agreed upon as most important, let alone realistically changed.

 

What I've gradually come to realize is that all of that ambiguity, while being the primary reason why the protesters cannot be satisfied in the near future, is not only one of the main reasons that something of this magnitude could be achieved in the first place, but also the feature of it that may wind up making it an indirectly significant force. I don't see any one issue as being sufficient to have accumulated, more importantly than the numbers, the lasting gathering that this has turned out to be. Overambitious as it seemed to me at first, it's lasting, and while it may have dwindled in numbers, it only picks up more support as it continues, as well as more attention by the media and on a global scale. When various special interest groups started throwing their support in I considered the possibility (knowing that their primary concerns were their own agendas) that one or more of them might dilute the focus of the protest even further and/or steal the spotlight, possibly even bailing after a short time or after their own interests were addressed. The protest seems to have swallowed them so far though. As long as they continue to have any kind of presence there, and people keep paying attention to the protest as it spreads, the thing has got legs for a long time to come. I'd say if they make this winter, this could go on for years, provided action isn't taken to end it.

 

No matter how media coverage may dip or rise on it, as long as the protest continues and continues to spread, interest in it will continue to snowball. By the time I had to leave it was only around 5pm, so I'm sure I didn't catch the brunt of the traffic the little park bears, but a lot of the people who were there didn't appear to be occupiers, but people passing through and checking the scene out. They were talking to people, checking out literature, and conducting interviews all over the place. People were also standing around the barricades and taking pictures, like at the zoo. It's become a fucking tourist attraction. Weird as it is, if it goes on that way long enough it can only mean good things for the public's general awareness of their own role in the socio-economic game, and how their government facilitates or maintains its balance. Ultimately, changes of the variety this crowd is looking for will not come from a vote or a flick of a switch, but either violent revolution or a very significant increase in public education and awareness, leading to a gradual mending of the roles and power of government and big-business in the lives of the vast majority of the population. The former won't happen, not in the places these protests are taking place, and certainly not in NY. Not even a failed attempt. People aren't that discontent. And not that many of them. The latter though, doesn't seem impossible.

 

As far as the individuals down there go, I'd take anything I see on TV with a grain of salt. That goes both for the protesters a well as the police. For every jerkoff cop on any given force, I'd like to think there is one who is a human being while on duty as well. I've certainly encountered both varieties, and the same could be said for the people down in that park, or any group anywhere for that matter. There were definitely all kinds there, and while the nutjobs make the most noise, there are plenty of intelligent, concerned, organized, and responsible individuals down there who are keeping things moving. The media are the media, and so they'll immediately go to film the guy with half a shit hanging out of his shorts before anyone else (youtube culture baby!), but rest assured, this would have fallen apart quickly if they were the main representation on the floor.

 

Anyway, I left feeling a little differently than I went in. Going in I was both for and against them in ways. After leaving I can't say I'm convinced as to the effectiveness of this in the end, but while it might just be a dead end, it also presents a possibility of a very positive change. I certainly can say that I'm behind the people who are devoting large chunks of their time to taking up space in the park. Many of them sleep there, and many people devote their time after work, all of them sacrificing in some way to support a cause they believe in. Even a kid whose parents might be bringing him gourmet dinners every night counts, as their parents have to choose to support them for that to happen, which makes them a part of this movement as well. Plus the kid could be doing anything else in the world rather than sit in a park for a few months. I know I would.

 

*edit

Fuck, I should have just written the paper.

Edited November 10, 2011 by FredEffinChopin

[deanb]

Well it was inevitable, someone went and took the occupy movement way too seriously.

 

 

 

[Battra92]

Jay-Z to Sell Occupy Wall Street Shirts Oh and keep the profits for himself of course.

[Mal]

Geez, I have to say... age has not been good on Jay-Z.

[deanb]

So Frank Miller decided to have a few words about the Occupy movement

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/11/13/frank-miller-occupy/

 

In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers. Go back to your mommas' basements and play with your Lords Of Warcraft.

[FredEffinChopin]

Yeah, if you want to insight real cultural change, you should fight terrorism LIKE Frank Miller. Frank Miller recently wrote a comic about super heroes fighting terrorists. This makes him everything you are not, Occupy movement. He fights social injustice with the mighty pen. He doesn't live a sheltered or comfy Hollywood existence. He's on the front lines defending us from the bad guys and knows that if you unemployed and unhappy it's your fault. He is well versed in Islam and lives a militaristic life. He isn't sheltered or comfy. He's a real American hero. He doesn't use an iPhone and he certainly isn't a lout, thief, or rapist that wants fiscal responsibility for our government. He can totally tell the difference between reality and comics and he totally doesn't post like a psychopath. He knows that if you want to change our government or protest, AL-QAEDA WINS. He's a true patriot. And most importantly, he is in touch with our times, he thinks you should play Lords of Warcraft and stop your shitty movement (get the joke?).

 

Also, he makes movies like the Immortals. You should totally see that instead of protesting. Maybe you can learn a thing or too from those ancient Greeks, you weaklings.

 

I like that one.

 

While I understand where Frank's mental image of the occupiers comes from, and even his points of view to some extent, I'm going to go ahead and say that Frank reasons like a child, and I'm not just referring to his labeling of thousands of peaceful protesters "pond scum". If his words are any indication, it would seem that he's one of those guys that dismisses anything he doesn't give a shit about as unimportant because he can name something that he feels is more important. Issues of concern are not mutually exclusive, and if he believes they are, or that terrorism is the giant problem that the average citizen should spend their time fretting over (rather than being tens of thousands of dollars in debt for a degree that can't get them employed at Starbucks) then Frank is living in a fantasy world deeper than anything he's drawn, or that any WoW-playing pond scum dwell in. His reasoning would suggest that we should be content with whatever political injustices we perceive as long as there is a war around to sweat over, which makes him a shill, willing or not.

 

The fact that he paints the entire crowd, which happens to be one of the most diverse and widespread displays of one of the greatest American traditions in decades (agree with the protest or not, that is a fact) with a brush that would liken them to murderers and rapists based on some news reports of incidents that the outlet of his choice decides to write about, makes him someone who doesn't truly care enough about what he's raving about to bother giving it real consideration. Who can blame him, I'm sure it's a comfy life.

 

Point is, his opinion is somewhere near a joke imho. He's entitled to his opinion like anyone else, but considering how out of touch he is with the needs and concerns of the most of America's population (or lack of enough awareness to be concerned), his input seems pretty irrelevant. To me.

Edited November 14, 2011 by FredEffinChopin

[Mal]

I jokingly thought "You are the part of the 1%!".

Well, he is pretty close with how comfy he can be living...

[Hot Heart]

I can't think of Frank Miller without this.

[Thursday Next]

greatest American traditions

 

What tradition would that be?

[Battra92]

I had to look up who Frank Miller was. It sounds like a generic name from a 60s exploitation movie. Maybe the name of the cop who finds the dead hooker or something.

 

I will say one thing, though in regards to his post. He has a point although maybe not the point that he was trying to make. Since the occupy movement is apparently all in a hissy fit over the "evil" bankers making these kids pay back their student loans (which are almost all owned by the government but why let logic get in the way) they could enlist in the army/guard and get some of their loans paid back. Not a perfect solution for all but it may work for some people and for many of the coddled spoiled kids out there, it might actually give them some perspective on life.

 

Speaking of student loans and colleges, I read an article the other day pointing out many of the problems with the so-called occupy generation. One of them was the lie that getting a college degree (in anything) would guarantee you a job. I have a bachelor's degree in Business Information Systems with a minor in Computer Science. I know I got my IT job not because of my degree but from the fact that I had seven years experience working my way through college (for $7.50-$8 an hour I might add) at a small business where I worked as the the sold member of the IT support staff as well as having to work retail, be the receptionist, take inventory, and be the janitor plus working two years repairing computers at my college's computer helpdesk.

 

The truth is, in this crappy economy people don't want to take risks. That even includes hiring young people fresh out of college with a philosophy major to do work for their business. Perhaps it's even a sin to offer that many degrees in philosophy and other such degrees. If you get a degree in philosophy you really have one career path ahead of you: Philosophy Professor. When one professor teaches 30 kids a class ... well you do the math.

 

It's a strange circumstance when I see kids from my high school who never went to college but went into a trade such as carpentry or auto mechanics or plumbing being quite successful while I have close friends who have their MA's and are living at home barely getting by. It's ironic that the manual labor jobs we were told as kids were "beneath us" by our teachers and elders are the very jobs that always seem to be in demand and have semi-decent pay.

 

When the "occupiers" were littered with applications to McDonalds many took to Facebook, Twitter and the like to complain about the "grave insult." The fact is, though. Sometimes you have to do all you can. I have a friend who does freelance IT work and also works at a hotel as her "day job." I know a history major who is a security guard and an English major who drives a forklift and another who does clerical work. Whatever pays the bills!

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

they could enlist in the army/guard and get some of their loans paid back. Not a perfect solution for all but it may work for some people and for many of the coddled spoiled kids out there, it might actually give them some perspective on life.

 

Honestly, you expect these protesters to support war, especially ones that are unjustified? Also, there are MANY veterans involved in these protests. They're upset because they feel like fucked over once they get home.

[Mal]

@Battra

Occupy generation? Is that what I'm going to be grouped into 20 years down the line?

 

Don't think so. Again, OWS has so many types of people that its hard to pin down the main folks in it, if there are any at all. The college age folks are getting the most press but that doesn't mean they're the majority. This isn't some hippie movement with free love and stuff like that.

 

Other than that, I agree more or less.

Less in areas like what FDS pointed out. Though I will voice that only one of them is unjustified... you can guess which one.

More in areas like work and effort. You have to work for your meal. Not all mindless work but work that you have to think about. Plan out.

[deanb]

Police raided the OWS camp in NYC couple hours ago. Press are basically being told to fuck off too, airspace closed above the park etc etc.

Seems Oakland one was raided yesterday too n Portland on Sunday.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15732661

 

Maybe not the best move to pull. Getting rid of the press doesn't bode well either, if you're doing it all by the book then press can film you doing this. You kick the press out all you're gonna have are the shakey cam footage of you beating one of the council members.

 

(the odd krystalnacht reference I've seen on twitter might be going a bit too far though)

[FredEffinChopin]

greatest American traditions

 

What tradition would that be?

 

I was referring to peaceful protest.

 

I've got my popcorn for this thing right now. This was definitely a bad decision for anyone looking to deflate the momentum of this movement. I'll wait to hear the reasoning behind the move. I know the general reason, but I mean the details of what made it a health hazard. It might be solid, but I'm leaning towards it being a flimsy pretense, most likely a technicality. The part I'm really curious about is how they're going to regroup. There is no way they can survive winter without the tents. Will they relocate (and possibly lose a great deal of effectiveness in terms of visibility), or will this become a different kind of animal altogether? I highly doubt it is over now.

[RockyRan]

A lot of protesters are just going to up the ante after today. It never really was about making a makeshift village out of tents in the first place, so it's not like the Mayor/police drove a stake through the heart of the protest or anything. It's really as simple as organizing marches every day throughout varying spots in Manhattan. And considering the protesters get to go home and sleep on a bad afterward, that's probably a better deal for them too.

[Mal]

If you haven't seen it yet, well here it is.

 

 

She could of well been my grandma...

 

More info here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8895317/Dorli-Rainey-becomes-unlikely-face-of-the-Occupy-movement.html

[Battra92]

A thought: so the Occupy Wall Street people are upset at the bank bailouts, right? Well let's forget for a moment that the banks have already paid back their loans and the government made a profit. These people likely had no jobs (were in college) and therefore paid no federal taxes. Why are they concerned about how someone else's tax money was spent? It's fairly obvious that their goal isn't a Jeffersonian Democracy.

[deanb]

Battra are you actually following it at all or just coming up with stuff in your head? Right above your post is Dorli Rainey, 84 years old former teacher and mayoral candidate. She's not a college student. Retired Police Captain also protesting. There's also been Marines joining in (which means these folks also did as Frank Miller suggested) Given US also has something like 9-20% unemployment rate (the numbers can't decide) the chances of someone being unemployed at the protests is likely to be pretty high. But feel free to dismiss them.

[FredEffinChopin]

They have, but it's more indicative

A thought: so the Occupy Wall Street people are upset at the bank bailouts, right?

http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/18/poll-49-of-occupy-wall-street

I'm sure if you ask the 51% of that poll who did not feel the bailouts were necessary, many of them would also say that bailouts are the tiniest tip of the iceberg in the list of issues the protesters have. I'd imagine much of their anger over it is mainly issue of prioritization too, but that's just a guess.

 

These people likely had no jobs (were in college) and therefore paid no federal taxes. Why are they concerned about how someone else's tax money was spent?

 

I honestly appreciate your contribution to this thread. Regardless of what the popular opinion on something like this in any given circle may be, I feel that these discussions are the best immediate result of the protest, but no discussion is worth the time it takes to have unless ideas are being exchanged and challenged. As much bullshit as people might like to talk about being filtered through mainstream media coverage, bullshit is coming from the protesters too, and there needs to be some balance in the way people take this all in. That being said though, I feel like you're still not giving the assembly down there enough credit. The representation of the protest on the street is indescribably diverse in terms of age, occupation, ethnicity, and income bracket. I imagine the representation outside of it is just as diverse. There is a protest going on at my college right now, that will march to the city later today. It's not just a student protest though. The faculty are participants as well, and helped organize it.

 

On a side note, it amuses me to think that when I hang out with certain friends and have this discussion in the near-future, I will once again be taking the side opposed to the protest. Oh well, I think it's healthy.

[RockyRan]

A thought: so the Occupy Wall Street people are upset at the bank bailouts, right? Well let's forget for a moment that the banks have already paid back their loans and the government made a profit. These people likely had no jobs (were in college) and therefore paid no federal taxes. Why are they concerned about how someone else's tax money was spent? It's fairly obvious that their goal isn't a Jeffersonian Democracy.

 

This is a very poor line of thinking, especially because these "people without jobs" aren't really doing it on purpose, they really can't find the jobs because the economy is in the shitter.

 

It also conveniently leaves out the people who DO have jobs and still support the protest (let's NOT forget for a moment that the people protesting aren't just "jobless hippies" like everyone seems to believe for some reason) who aren't liking the way their tax dollars are being misappropriated.

[CorgiShinobi]

 

Friend shared this on Facebook, eventually found the source, and I gotta say I think it hit the nail on the head with this trend.

[RockyRan]

One thing I've noticed. The comments on Youtube in the OWS videos tell me two things. Either the general American population is completely hopeless, or there's a massive shilling movement of legions of people loudly decrying the protests. It's gotten to the point where it's really transparent what's really going on.

[Battra92]

One thing I've noticed. The comments on Youtube in the OWS videos tell me two things. Either the general American population is completely hopeless, or there's a massive shilling movement of legions of people loudly decrying the protests. It's gotten to the point where it's really transparent what's really going on.

 

Actually public opinion of the "Occupiers" is pretty low. I can't find the news story but it was showing something of only 30% approval rating.

 

The thing is, I know a lot of people hate to admit it but America is mostly a center-to-right country. This isn't a massive corporate conspiracy to brainwash people or anything like that. The Wall Street Journal has more than overtaken the New York Times and USAToday as America's #1 selling Newspaper, FoxNews runs circles around MSNBC and CNN in the ratings war. According to Gallup, the numbers just show how Americans identify themselves.

 

The occupiers aren't helping their cause either. When was the last time you saw someone deficate on a police car at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw Anti-semitic signs at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw violence or mass litter or rapes or suicide or drug use at a Tea Party? Never.

 

Now I'm not saying this shows the Tea Party cause to be right strictly based on that alone but one has to admit that the Tea Party is the most influential grass roots political movement of the 21st century so far. What have been their methods:

1. PEACEFUL protests. See my points above.

2. Getting Involved at the local level as well as the state and federal level. Many members of the tea party have run for local office or state office. Many others volunteered or donated money to candidates they support.

3. Holding their elected officials accountable. This can go back to going to the Town Hall meetings during the summer when Obamacare was being crammed down the collective throats of Americans. People went to scheduled meetings with their elected officials and spoke out. When those people ignored them, work was done to boot them out of office.

 

The occupiers methods? Cause mayhem, destruction, confusion and violence. I see people out there now claiming that it's because the NYPD is owned by JPMorgan Chase or some such nonsense. I wonder if these people even listen to themselves.