The "Occupy" Movement

[deanb]

I'm gonna have to say the Tea Party could be a bit better named...

 

 

Also it's my understanding that up until police raids got involved the OWS protests have been pretty peaceful. Occupation, marches, signs etc. You're gonna have to fill me in on this OWS rape though (though I am also aware that all you've said is the tea party don't rape, but the implication of OWS is there. So I'm curious on that one)

 

From an outsiders point btw, things not to be too proud of:

- That Fox News is the number one news channel

- Knocking out a national health service.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

As someone who is taking several courses in media where situations like this are discussed, I can tell you right now that not allowing press inside is the worst mistake you can make. People throw around terms like "liberal media" when in reality, those terms are bullshit. If there's an important story, the press does its best to cover it as accurately as possible. Yes, Fox and MSNBC spin their stories, but in the end, even if the story misses the boat entirely, there's always a kernel of truth that speaks louder than any possible spin.

 

What am I getting at? Give the press complete unfettered access to this event. Speak to them often. And if the protesters do something fucked up, like that one guy shooting at the White House, then it will drown out a lot of the criticism and bad blood toward the police.

 

But it also requires the police to do something else; keep your department under fucking control. You cannot afford to have pictures like THIS spread across every website and newspaper. I'm not one of those who believes the police are the enemy here, but I DO believe that because of the traditional shit officers have gotten away with, they think they can just "clean up" the movement by punching and tear gassing them into submission. There may be people who are acting violent and need to be taken care of. Take care of those specific people, then STOP. Don't start punching priests and pepper-spraying grannies.

 

The American hearts are won by the images of humanity on their front page. If you put a leash on your neanderthals, and work to only suppress the violent ones, then they will see the protestors' actions for what they really are. But every time you beat up some poor person who was only on the sidelines, all the American people see is a corrupt police state that does its damnedest to suppress any form of free thought that doesn't coincide with the corporations.

 

TL;DR; Let the press in, and put your fucking mutts on a leash.

 

EDIT: And for the love of all that is holy, own up to your actions. Saying "we didn't use tear gas or flash bangs" when several videos show that you did is beyond farcical, and it makes everyone enraged. A simple apology and an explanation for why you had to use those tools would suffice.

Edited November 18, 2011 by DukeOfPwn

[Battra92]

I'm gonna have to say the Tea Party could be a bit better named...

 

I assume you're aware of it's origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party

The term many believe was first coined by Rick Santelli from the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange on CNBC though the roots of the party really started more with Ron Paul's 2008 Presidential run. But that's another topic altogether.

 

Also it's my understanding that up until police raids got involved the OWS protests have been pretty peaceful. Occupation, marches, signs etc. You're gonna have to fill me in on this OWS rape though (though I am also aware that all you've said is the tea party don't rape, but the implication of OWS is there. So I'm curious on that one)

 

See, that's due to the mass media coverage of the events. Googling around I was able to come across this list listing many of the crimes reported (and Lord knows how many unreported) at the OWS protests.

 

From an outsiders point btw, things not to be too proud of:

- That Fox News is the number one news channel

- Knocking out a national health service.

 

Fox is what it is and for the most part their news is decent. They make a big distinction between their news shows and opinion shows. Chris Wallace is one of the best out there, currently. Brit Hume was always great to watch.

 

Also, I have no desire to have less of my own resources confiscated so that it can go to others who choose not to purchase things they need instead of things that they want.

[FredEffinChopin]

The occupiers aren't helping their cause either. When was the last time you saw someone deficate on a police car at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw Anti-semitic signs at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw violence or mass litter or rapes or suicide or drug use at a Tea Party? Never.

 

This is something I love. Thousands of people are gathered in protest, one of them cops a squat on a car, and that's all people can talk about. This is the nature of a large gathering, people will act like assholes. The amount of violence was actually minimal considering this is a gathering of discontents. Why aren't people of this point of view treating the cops the same way, and talking about how the cops are really making things worse for themselves by beating up on unarmed men in packs and tear-gassing the elderly? Or why the mayor is making things worse by interfering with peoples' right to protest? Can we base the assumption that the US government is trying to silence its citizens on his actions? Here, let's try something.

 

 

 

Talk to me about baseball and its fans. Or about the city of Boston.

 

See, the truth is the behavior of the protesters has been mostly exemplary, especially when one considers the nature of what is taking place and the numbers it has drawn. If people are getting the impression that the pack down there is one of wolves, I'd pay attention to what news outlets choose to show you during all this. When thousands are peacefully protesting and all the news can talk about is a guy crapping on a car, or how a cop got his hand cut and had to be rushed to the hospital, it's safe to say that someone is working hard to demean this movement. When I do some simple maths in my head, I know that most of those people conducted themselves well. While footage from the street shows some pretty rough play from the NYPD, the people on the ground on the Ustream feed yesterday had offered accounts of officers visibly crying, in one case pleading with the protesters to back off before the riot police arrived. Call me naive, but I'm more inclined to believe that police are mostly human beings that don't like having to beat citizens than I am to believe that everyone who is protesting down there is an animal.

 

I'm not going to offer personal views on the tea party, as I can almost guarantee that this topic will be derailed with talk about them.

[RockyRan]

Actually public opinion of the "Occupiers" is pretty low. I can't find the news story but it was showing something of only 30% approval rating.

 

Last time I checked, and my info might be outdated, the vast majority supported the protest.

 

The occupiers aren't helping their cause either. When was the last time you saw someone deficate on a police car at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw Anti-semitic signs at a Tea Party? When was the last time you saw violence or mass litter or rapes or suicide or drug use at a Tea Party? Never.

 

 

The Tea Party has only been given as much attention as it is getting because big business and people with big pockets are willing it so. OWS will always be opposed precisely for the opposite reason, but it certainly doesn't make the former any more legitimate than the latter. Not even close.

 

Now I'm not saying this shows the Tea Party cause to be right strictly based on that alone but one has to admit that the Tea Party is the most influential grass roots political movement of the 21st century so far. What have been their methods:

1. PEACEFUL protests. See my points above.

2. Getting Involved at the local level as well as the state and federal level. Many members of the tea party have run for local office or state office. Many others volunteered or donated money to candidates they support.

3. Holding their elected officials accountable. This can go back to going to the Town Hall meetings during the summer when Obamacare was being crammed down the collective throats of Americans. People went to scheduled meetings with their elected officials and spoke out. When those people ignored them, work was done to boot them out of office.

 

That's because the Tea Party was, from the very beginning, given much better hospitality. A very large amount of ardent Tea Partiers are exactly the people who can make these protests "smooth" by pulling the right strings because its ideology goes right in line with billionaire moguls (who, for all intents and purposes, own the country and its government). OWS, on the other hand, is a collection of ordinary citizens fiercely opposing the people in power. Of course the people in power (and that includes people in office as well as media owners) are going to pull the strings and try to discredit the protests as much as it can, because they're protesting against exactly them and their actions.

 

The occupiers methods? Cause mayhem, destruction, confusion and violence. I see people out there now claiming that it's because the NYPD is owned by JPMorgan Chase or some such nonsense. I wonder if these people even listen to themselves.

 

I'm wondering the same about you. When was the last time an OWS protest became violent for absolutely no reason? Never. Empty buzzwords like "mayhem", "destruction", "confusion", and "violence" aren't only vacuous, they're outright false. Any and all forms of severe civil unrest come from 1) the vast minority (as in, one person in a protest of 1,000) and 2) only after police officers step over their bounds and become brutal. It's this kind of revisionist fact checking perpetuated by the media that's hindering OWS progress and nothing more. Given the same chances that the Tea Party was being magically given at its inception, OWS would've already had a much bigger and much more progressive impact. But instead we have the masses being massively misinformed spreading FUD on a protest that is actually quite simple and peaceful.

[deanb]

 

He looks like an older David Walliams.

 

 

I'm gonna have to say the Tea Party could be a bit better named...

 

I assume you're aware of it's origins.

http://en.wikipedia....oston_Tea_Party

The term many believe was first coined by Rick Santelli from the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange on CNBC though the roots of the party really started more with Ron Paul's 2008 Presidential run. But that's another topic altogether.

Yes I'm aware it's named after the Boston Tea Party. Not really sure on why though. In fact given the aim of "no taxation without representation" it'd seem to make more sense for the OWS protests to be "the tea party".

 

btw the link you gave uses this as a source:

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=33490

Which I assume from the title "Just Like the Tea Party: A List of Occupy Mayhem Sorted by Type" implies that some googling will turn up a similar list of Te Party protests gone awry?

(pretty crummy list in parts anyway, fire 2.7 miles away from camp, homeless people beating up each other. If you're gonna list "anything that happens near by" then you're gonna get a pretty hefty list. But looking at the rest of the site it's pretty clear they're not OWS fans)

 

bte regarding public opinion one of links on the verum serum had this on the side bar:

http://www.nytimes.c...s/ows-grid.html

Seems to mostly clump in the "agree with the points, and the protesters"

 

edit:

 

That police officer sure is showing those kids sitting down who's boss.

 

http://bicyclebarric...nda-p-b-katehi/

 

When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

[RockyRan]

edit:

 

That police officer sure is showing those kids sitting down who's boss.

 

http://bicyclebarric...nda-p-b-katehi/

 

When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

 

Bu- bu- but...They're anarchists! And destructors of all that is good and American! How dare they sit! They deserve to have pepper spray in their reproductive organs, those heathens for sitting down!

[Mal]

Look, he's watering the seeds of anarcy...

 

Now seriously... Their mouths were forced open and pepper sprayed down their throats? The hell? Is that tactic even legal?

I don't really care that they were sprayed at while sitting down but that to me is kind of crossing the line.

[deanb]

At least this is in California where even the police are relative hippy pushovers. If they were in Ohio the college kids would be shown what for.

[Chewblaha]

I typed something long and interesting up, though it all boils down to one thing.

 

Whether you consider them to be passionate or "pawns," none of those people were breaking the law and none were doing anything that was not out of their rights as a citizen of the United States.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Chewblaha

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

One of my good friends posted that picture on Facebook, and he received a torrent of shit from others. "These people are criminals and pot smokers, they deserve to be taught what's what."

 

Fuck, this country is depressing me.

[FredEffinChopin]

One of my good friends posted that picture on Facebook, and he received a torrent of shit from others. "These people are criminals and pot smokers, they deserve to be taught what's what."

 

Fuck, this country is depressing me.

 

I don't go on Facebook often, but when I went on to send someone a message early yesterday I saw similar sentiments being expressed. I was completely revolted, as well as ashamed for having links with these people, however loosely we might be associated. I think some people are so detached from these protest in every way imaginable that they treat it like pure entertainment, and take on the role of the heckler. I'm not innocent when it comes to things like that, but this isn't the same thing as bullshitting over some reality show personality.

 

Despite being friendly with many of them, I've taken it upon myself to speak to them like the children they're behaving themselves as. If there were a physical equivalent to what I'm doing, I'd liken it to shoving someone's own shit down their throat so forcefully that it takes a dozen teeth with it. I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to convert people to pro-occupy, but just trying to pull their consciousness out of the fucking gutter for a moment. If they're offended then I guess it's mutual, and we just don't need to be cool anymore.

 

On a side note:

 

I was completely disgusted by this photo, but when I read up and looked at the other photos and video I teared up a bit. I hope this officer is ashamed already, but just in case he isn't, I'm going to do my part in putting a human perspective on the actions of him and his colleagues. Perhaps a letter from Raymond Lewis could teach this guy what it is to be a man.

[CorgiShinobi]

I repeat my sentiment that protests display the worst nature of mankind, on both sides. You have the near totalitarian attitude of a few police officers, and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up than furthering whatever the cause may be. The aggressors who want the opportunity to bring "justice" to the "hippies," and the instigators who want the opportunity to show "freedom" to the "pigs."

 

But this is human nature. No matter how much we want to say things are not black and white, we constantly associate people/things with a "good" and "evil." The United States has been through this before, and quite frankly there will probably be another event similar to this a decade from now. So while it's depressing, and even sickening, this is what will happen when people have freedom and rights.

 

Something won't be right, people will gather, and thus the proverbial feces throwing contest will begin.

[Luftwaffles]

I repeat my sentiment that protests display the worst nature of mankind, on both sides. You have the near totalitarian attitude of a few police officers, and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up than furthering whatever the cause may be. The aggressors who want the opportunity to bring "justice" to the "hippies," and the instigators who want the opportunity to show "freedom" to the "pigs."

 

Definitely hit the nail on the head here. I guess my opinion is definitely biased toward the cops on this just because of the actions where I live. The cops have been completely civil and given the protestors plenty of time with their tents before drawing the line, and the protestors have sat around, smoked weed, and become more vilified by the community each day. The pepper spray photos make me mad, and sad that that's what it's come to, but I don't think this police brutality is necessarily surprising seeing the direction the protests were going. It's just sad that all the news about Occupy Wall Street has changed from a nice, organized message to old ladies getting pepper sprayed. If a bystander was just trying to learn about the movement now, I think it might be difficult for them to actually understand the message they're trying to convey, and that's a problem.

 

If they really want to get their ideas out now, something needs to change with their police interaction.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up

 

Examples?

[CorgiShinobi]

and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up

 

Examples?

You're doubting that in any possible protest ever there's never been at least one person who's idiocy has ruined the reputation of the protestors, and in effect, the subject/cause?

 

It doesn't matter who's in a protest or what it's about, but there's always going to be someone who gets it through their head that one dirty trick or maneuver will justify the means. It's kinda how protests can turn into those things called "riots."

 

EDIT: You know, I actually tried to find the video clip of this television show my roommate and I were watching last year, but I never thought I would have to remember the name of a "shocking videos" program.

 

Anyway, as far as anecdotal evidence will go, some protest was going on in a foreign country and tension was high. No duh, right? A cameraman was recording the action between a few law enforcement personnel and a crowd of protestors. One officer is talking to these young men, but suddenly some guy decides to trip up the officer and give him a push. The young men the officer was talking to began shouting as though the police officer broke the final straw and began fighting.

 

It would have been the usual "officer starts riot" incident, except there was a cameraman there who had the proper angle to show what really happened.

 

It's like the Cracked article about Logical Fallacies: We're programmed to "Win," not to seek out "Truth."

Edited November 20, 2011 by Atomsk88

[Luftwaffles]

and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up

 

Examples?

 

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

You're doubting that in any possible protest ever there's never been at least one person who's idiocy has ruined the reputation of the protestors, and in effect, the subject/cause?

 

Not at all, I just don't get the thinking that comes with labeling an entire movement this way. Letting it be spoiled by those few. It's on the cops to not be dicks as their job is to maintain peace. Uphold the law. The standards are set much higher for them so when they fail the effect is great.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/uc-davis-protest_b_1103039.html

This sums up the actions of the police quite nicely.

[CorgiShinobi]

You're doubting that in any possible protest ever there's never been at least one person who's idiocy has ruined the reputation of the protestors, and in effect, the subject/cause?

 

Not at all, I just don't get the thinking that comes with labeling an entire movement this way. Letting it be spoiled by those few. It's on the cops to not be dicks as their job is to maintain peace. Uphold the law. The standards are set much higher for them so when they fail the effect is great.

Never was labeling the Occupy Movement. I'm talking protests; take your pick. I'm talking about how people can demonize one party, but then foolishly uphold the other as if every single one is a saint. If someone is acting improper to their objective, no matter their position, they should be held accountable.

 

The way I see it, law enforcement is the neutral party. They protect the protest, and they protect those outside the protest. You can't forget, when people get into a large group, tension runs high and those few "spoiled" participants act like embers to a dry forest. While there are those who earnestly seek out a peaceful protest, the few take matters in a passive-aggressive approach. Once the line has been crossed, those embers turn the forest into a raging inferno.

 

Best example by far would be the London riots which were derived from a protest about police action in shooting a man.

 

So yeah, there are police officers being abhorrent scum, but I'm not going to start spitting at a line of them because Lt. Dickweed shouldn't operate pepper spray.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Atomsk88

[RockyRan]

I repeat my sentiment that protests display the worst nature of mankind, on both sides. You have the near totalitarian attitude of a few police officers, and then you have the "rebel" participants who seem more interested in stirring shit up than furthering whatever the cause may be. The aggressors who want the opportunity to bring "justice" to the "hippies," and the instigators who want the opportunity to show "freedom" to the "pigs."

 

But this is human nature. No matter how much we want to say things are not black and white, we constantly associate people/things with a "good" and "evil." The United States has been through this before, and quite frankly there will probably be another event similar to this a decade from now. So while it's depressing, and even sickening, this is what will happen when people have freedom and rights.

 

Something won't be right, people will gather, and thus the proverbial feces throwing contest will begin.

 

I think it's a matter of cause and effect. Protesters are warned to leave and refuse to do so, officers are told to forcibly remove them, officers step over the line in removing protesters and the ones watching have their blood boil at the cop overreaction. Now the protesters are pissed at the cops and adopt an attitude of "fuck you".

 

I'm not going to say all of the protesters are angels, but honestly the single most important factor in how these protests end up sits squarely on the shoulders of police officers. They're being overly aggressive and sparking police hatred among the protesters, because nothing gets them more riled up about their cause than a police officer using dickwad tactics trying to stifle their protest.

 

I understand the sentiment that officers need to remove protesters if they are ordered to do so. However, trying to do so by showing up in riot gear and forcing pepper spray down people's throats is NOT an appropriate way of breaking up a peaceful protest. Yeah, yeah. A dude has a sign that says "lol kill copz". That's not grounds for justification in what they're doing at all. The police are overreacting on purpose to quickly break up protests as a way of showing they "mean business", but it's a completely counterproductive measure seeing as it does nothing but intensify the feeling to continue protesting.

[CorgiShinobi]

See, I'm nearly on the same page, but there will be protestors who see any action police officers take as an act of aggression. There may be a justified reason to remove (just remove) some protestors, yet tell that to a crowd where detail is scarce and where personal failings are confused with orders.

 

I've said before protests mostly become unreasonable events, and I would say that's because no one is going to have a proper amount of (or accurate) information to understand what's going on in a ten foot radius.

 

Now I'm not directing this to Occupy as well. To be honest, it stems from my frustration of "misunderstandings." Had them happen to me a lot as a kid because I couldn't speak well. You know how people say first impressions are everything? Yeah, the impressions I must have given that stuck to me until I moved elsewhere.

 

What does this have to do with anything? Nothing much, just that it's the reason why I strive to gain perspective rather than clinging to whatever may appeal to me first.

[Enervation]

Not sure if you guys saw the video yet, but here is Chancellor Katehi of UC Davis walking to her car at night:

 

 

Hardly disruptive, incredibly powerful.

 

On a side note, I go to UC Riverside, a campus famous for having absolutely nothing famous. Nothing ever happens here. :l

[RockyRan]

Not sure if you guys saw the video yet, but here is Chancellor Katehi of UC Davis walking to her car at night:

 

Hardly disruptive, incredibly powerful.

 

On a side note, I go to UC Riverside, a campus famous for having absolutely nothing famous. Nothing ever happens here. :l

 

ANARCHISTS! KILL THEM! KILL THEM ALL!

 

See, I'm nearly on the same page, but there will be protestors who see any action police officers take as an act of aggression

 

I'm sorry, but showing up in riot gear and pepper spraying peaceful protesters down their throats is a blatant act of aggression regardless of anyone's idea of what exactly constitutes police aggression.

Edited November 21, 2011 by RockyRan

[CorgiShinobi]

WTF?

 

Did I ever defend that? No. Any action, like having to escort persons off private property or legitimately arrest someone for a breach of public law. It happens, but just seeing it gets people pissed because it's "aggression."

 

Seriously, W-T-F?