deanb Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 "US Politics and US News" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRevanchist Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I'm more entertained by the death chemicals than I am this. So, the jackass died slowly instead of fast. Boo-fucking-hoo. I don't feel sorry for him. Fuck him. He's been alive since the time of the murder, 25 years ago. Since she was 8 months pregnant at the time of her murder, the baby would be 25 by now. He has kids that are alive. We know this because they are planning to sue and get money from this, as bad as the sleaze they call 'dad'. Her parents both died while waiting for him to be executed all these years. So, I don't give a fuck if he chokes during his execution. I hope he got to choke on some prison guard dick while he was in prison, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 who here is for and who against the death penalty? Can we change the poll? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think people should be reformed if possible so that doesn't vibe with me on that level... but reform doesn't happen in US prisons to begin with so it's part of a much larger problem. Financially, I remember researching this once, and I can't remember if it was cheaper to kill the person or to keep them in jail. I think it was cheaper to kill so there's a positive in that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It would be cheaper to kill, except it takes so long before they can actually be executed that it ends up being more expensive because of all the court proceedings and everything that they have to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It would be cheaper to kill, except it takes so long before they can actually be executed that it ends up being more expensive because of all the court proceedings and everything that they have to have. Yeah, I knew it wasn't straight forward, which is why I'm unsure about which one was cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'm mixed. Before I begin, I'm talking about the worse that humanity has to offer in the following: Sometimes rotting in a cell is a better thing for them but then you got to wonder why are we housing and feeding them while they just sit. You got to wonder why sometimes they get better food than your kid at school or why they get better medical than say you and me. We can make them do odd jobs during their confinement but those seem more suited for the lower security inmates. At some point, if the person is sentenced to die then that person got to die. I think the chemical nature of how we do things is a bit inefficient. Sometimes there can be shortages which can cause delays. Hell, sometimes the chemicals can screw up which can cause quite a nasty show where sometimes the person can survive. Round two anyone? I think we should go back to the plain old bullet due to a few factors... First off it is just quick and with a bullet or two we can end it with certainty.Secondly, in modern time we have tried to remove the executioner from the guilt. Well, we got the technology to pull it off. We got the capability to make robots that can know exactly what and where to shoot. All there needs to be is the push of a button which an UAV controller can even do (Some of them are blasting away at baddies already so same shit). We can even be nice and knock them out if they request it with that one drug that is used to knock people out before surgery. Considering the amount of procedures that can require it, I don't think there is a shortage of that drug. Meh. I sound pretty cold though I think Revan takes the cake right now. And oh yeah. I think death row costs more in part with the drugs they use. Not like they can be stored forever or require a massive supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mr. GOH! Posted January 21, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Killing another human being is among the most vile things one can do. A state execution is a determination by the state that a given individual does not deserve to be alive any longer. It's fucking frightening the state has the power to make that determination, as the criteria are subject to popular determination. I do not think that is a determination anybody should make. Vengeance is an inhuman reason to do anything. We make ourselves into animals when we decide who lives and who dies. One innocent person executed makes us all murderers in the first degree, as well as kidnappers and psychological torturers. That said, there are times killing is justified to prevent other deaths directly, but an execution is never a justified killing. Edit: Prison food sucks. And the argument that prisoners have three squares and a place to sleep ignores the essential dehumanization that occurs when one is kept confined against one's will with every aspect of one's life determined by the penal system. Fuck, the way you guys are talking about prisoners as if they're less than human is sociopathic. Furthermore, just because they get basic healthcare and food when you and yours don't isn't a reason to dehumanize them further or, scarily, advocate for their deaths; it's a reason to be FUCKING FURIOUS with the powers that be that law-abiding people must struggle to meet their basic needs. Edited January 21, 2014 by Mr. GOH! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRevanchist Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 If the state has determined the punishment is death, then so be it. These aren't typical crimes we are talking about, but seriously fucked up people who did seriously fucked up things. Keeping them locked in a cage is supposedly more humane, but that is an assumption made by people who are not locked up for 50 years until they die. And implying we are all sociopaths because we disagree with you is not a valid point. That kind of argument is something I expect from Limbaugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Heat Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Personally, every time I see a sentence where a criminal will die or will have died by old age before the sentence is up, I wonder what the hell the point of that is. Sure, there is no such thing as 100% certainty when it comes to passing judgment, but omelette eggs etc etc. And implying we are all sociopaths because we disagree with you is not a valid point. That kind of argument is something I expect from Limbaugh. Doesn't bother me too much. I would consider my sense of justice to be very...the word people have used is 'Knights Templar-y'. I'll be at peace with that even after the Assassins show up to kill me for trying to eliminate the flaw of free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 What I posted is my basic private feelings about the death penalty. People will rarely see it since it is so raw. I can refine it a bit : Yes I think people should die if they knowingly commit heinous crimes but I find the current chemical method rather crude and ineffective... inhumane if you will (Heh). I think the crimes Revan is and for sure that I am thinking about are the worst of the worst. These people knowingly commit murder or great bodily harm. Yes, my definition of what these crimes are will differ from Revan's or anybody else and that is fine. It is no different from our preference of say alcohol type. In any case, if society deem that they should die for their crimes then so be it. We'll do it quickly and guarantee the death. If people want him to be locked up till the end of their days then so be it. While my personal feelings are rather strong it doesn't mean I can't accommodate (reasonable) alternative viewpoints, say yours (GOH). Also doesn't mean I'll feel bad if my views clash*. For example, the innocent people who die under our imperfect system. I can take that truth. It what make me want to improve the system. It would be pretty neat if it was aligned with my views but it is fine if it is under an alternative view. Anyways, about being called a sociopath... shrug? What I think seems reasonable. Feel free to debate me. I'll try my best*. *I have trouble expressing myself so forgive if I give up replying if I feel that I can't express my feelings and view correctly. I feel content with this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Callous disregard for other human beings is sociopathy, though. I suppose just targeting one's callous disregard to a particular subset is better than targeting all of humanity, though. I'm not saying you guys are sociopaths; just that it's fucking frightening how you dehumanize prisoners. I'd support inmate voluntary suicide under certain conditions (like psychological evaluations to make sure the inmate is mentally stable). The inhumanity of suicide is that the person whose life is at issue doesn't make the choice. What if the state decides that there should be more executions for crimes other than murder (as is the case in the USA; treason and espionage are federal capital crimes, and in FL you can be killed for smuggling drugs)? Drug dealing? Fraud? Membership in an illegal political party? I think it's better to take execution off the table altogether than to allow the state to make the decision that some people just don't get to live, even if it democratically decided. People have popularly decided before that certain folks just have to die for what we would now consider minor crimes. What if the mechanism of determining guilt isn't fair or 100% accurate? Or what if capital punishment were not equally applied to those found guilty of equal crimes (as is the actual case)? Most of all, what end does execution serve? It has not been found to be a very effective deterrent; fucked up crazies will be fucked up crazies whether they'll face execution or not while sane folks commit crimes when they think they'll get away with it anyway. Is the purpose vengeance? Is vengeance really something you want as a legitimate end of public policy decisions? Not caring whether criminal are killed by the state is one thing, actively supporting the state killing people is another. MaliciousH: why is it worth it to keep executing guilty people if you know some innocent people will also be executed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staySICK Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Oh man you guys are singing my song. I wrote a 10 page paper arguing against the Death Penalty for my Freshman English Comp class in college, and then had to hack away to make it fit. Suffice to say I'm staunchly against it, with a laundry list of reasons. The American prison system and Capital Punishment is a racist, sexist, bigoted, classist tool of oppression used by the State. That being said, it is also wildly hypocritical when used for those who actually belong imprisoned and are a threat to others. Why are we saving a man's life thrice over just to kill him later? (yes this actually happened) And as I alluded to before, Justice is anything but blind, especially in America. And as such, how many innocents have we put to State Sanctioned death? That's without debating the ethics of killing the mentally disabled who don't understand right from wrong completely (TEXAS). We have the high profile cases: Damien Echols (and a big FUCK YOU to the State of Arkansas for the chickenshit way they freed the WM3, avoiding the millions they would have had to rightfully pay the men for the lost years of their life), Mumia abu Jamal, but what about the lesser known, like the man exonerated by DNA evidence after 27 years on death row? There is no reason to maintain the farce that is the Death Penalty in our supposed civilized nation, but the prison system also needs major reform and a major overhaul. (tapatalk sucks at formating, I'm finding out) Edited January 21, 2014 by staySICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I've added your poll (I'll read the rest of the responses later) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Wasn't able to vote in the poll. It said "You must cast your vote in each question of the poll." #10355 I had to delete my non-existent vote before I cast one in this poll; I think that if you change the poll on a topic, it still records users as having voted on the new poll if they voted on the old one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staySICK Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think what you need to do to get it to work right is delete the poll altogether, save the post without a poll, then edit the post again to add a new poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRevanchist Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 StaySICK makes some good, valid points about bigotry and the role it plays, as well as the imperfection of justice. But, like we can see with all justice systems, there is no such thing as a perfect justice system. There will be a very small percent of convictions that are incorrect, regardless of reason. But, do you make the rules to capture the .001% or make rules to capture the 99.999%? And one thing we need to look at is victim's rights. Or, as in most cases of those on Death Row, the rights that were stripped of the victims. When you take away the rights of those victims, does the person who did the crime get all of their rights? No, but they have more than the dead lady whose throat was slit and bled out. And they have more than that unborn baby. Hell, North Korean citizens have more rights than lady who was raped, killed, and body left in the woods to rot. So, let's not forget the victim: "Joy Stewart, 22, was nearly eight months pregnant when she encountered McGuire in Preble County, Ohio, while visiting a friend on Feb. 11, 1989. McGuire would first blame her kidnapping and murder on his brother-in-law. Authorities took his words seriously because he knew things about the crime that had not been made public, such as the anal rape of the victim, and he led them to the murder weapon, a knife, hidden in a farm hayloft. But McGuire’s accusation didn’t hold up and DNA evidence excluded the brother-in-law but implicated McGuire." "McGuire sought sex from Joy Stewart but she refused and he raped her. According to court documents, McGuire said that “because she was so pregnant it was difficult to engage in sex with her, so he anally sodomized her. Joy then became ‘hysterical,’ which made McGuire nervous. He ended up killing Joy for fear that he would go to jail for raping a pregnant woman.” "He choked her. Then he stabbed her with the knife he used to forcibly rape her. His first thrust “caused no significant injury,” according to the autopsy report. His second blow inflicted a 4½-inch cut in her throat and severed her carotid artery and jugular vein. He wiped blood off his hands on her right arm and dumped her in a wooded area where she was found the next day by hikers." "Sometime between her death and when her body was found, her unborn baby died. Her grave marker indicates she intended to name her baby Carl, according to the Columbus Dispatch. Her husband Kenny committed suicide within a year after her murder, reports the newspaper. Joy’s sister, Carol Avery, said their parents were devastated: “They never fully recovered and both died knowing that her killer still lived.” "Preble County prosecutors rightly observed, “One can scarcely conceive of a sequence of crimes more shocking to the conscience or to moral sensibilities” than the kidnapping, rape and murder of a pregnant woman." Source: http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/25073876-452/dont-forget-victim-in-ohio-execution.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Victims rights is just vengeance, and has no place in a civilized justice system. It's horrible to be the victim of horrible things, but vengeance doesn't change that they happened, and it serves no moral purpose. The justice system should be designed to protect society from horrible things happening, which means doing everything we can to prevent people from committing crimes in the first place (and not in the police-state sense, but by trying to understand what the root causes are so we can address them as a society), and for those who do commit crimes rehabilitating the ones who can be and removing/isolating the ones who can't. Now if you want to argue that execution is a just and efficient way to remove those deemed too dangerous to participate in society then fine, but the desire for retribution shouldn't enter into it. tl;dr: Two wrongs don't make a right. But three lefts do. P.S. I'm not saying I necessarily believe that capital punishment is a wrong, I'm just saying that the desire for vengeance isn't a valid justification for it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronixal Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Edit: can't delete posts on tapatalk. Felt to be inappropriate Edited January 21, 2014 by Chronixal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think what you need to do to get it to work right is delete the poll altogether, save the post without a poll, then edit the post again to add a new poll. So I did this and it works. You have pretty much the same powers I do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Since I've been asked a question, I got to answer. Incomplete thoughts since it is really asking me how I value life and asks my views/positions on a number of other issues/topics but it'll broadly work. And yes, I agree that I am dehumanizing the guilty i. It's the nature of this topic really. MaliciousH: why is it worth it to keep executing guilty people if you know some innocent people will also be executed? I find keeping the guilty alive to be that useless, potentially draining on society and cruel. Useless in that they can't do anything which in turn is pretty damn cruel1. Just keeping them locked up is just sweeping them under a rug. Out of sight, out of mind? Like hell they are. They are draining our resources while contributing nothing. I find the guilty and the life imprisonment insulting to life. The innocent people though. I have no good answer other than "Sorry". Terrible answer but I just cannot be deterred from my view. Revan talked about there is no such thing as a perfect justice system. Between keeping the guilty around or executing them, I rather execute them. 1 What is the purpose of keeping them around doing nothing? Are we gawking at them? Are they zoo animals (I hate zoos)? What kind of life is imprisonment? i Guilty means the worst of the worst. They can be anything from a guilty that Revan mentioned to a crime boss. They do not value life. This is how I determine if someone is fit to be executed. Anyways. The justice system needs a major overhaul if we imprison people for life. I do not like how most imprisonment is handled right now. Inmates should learn a skill or few and contribute to society. Life imprisonment should have the option of a quick death. I'll stand the insult of the really guilty living. If they do anymore while in prison though... eh. What say you guys? tl;dr: Yes, it is a complicate issue. No butterflies and rainbows here. Read. Feel free to critique. Next topic please! This is depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staySICK Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Personally I'm in favor of life imprisonment without the option of parole for cases where the death penalty is an option. Slap a DNR on them and lock them up. Given time I think being locked up properly with the knowledge if their crime would get to the conscience of all but the truly sociopathic. But maybe my faith in humanity is too high. Now along with that is a myriad of changes I'd like to see in the prison system, like the elimination of corporate / for profit jails. To me, that's incentivizing jail time, leading to false or unjust imprisonment and overcrowding, along with reform for drug sentencing (rehab and such for users, leave jail to the cookers and pushers), etc. Also, if we are intent on punishing murderers, what about when the death penalty is their goal? Timothy McVeigh (domestic terrorist, blew up a large building in Oklahoma City for the non-Americans, youngins) wanted to be put to death, and by golly we gave it to them. The whole process is costly and barbaric on top of being bigoted, and I don't really believe it deters crime as well. It should just be a relic of a bygone era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staySICK Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I only hit submit once dammit Edited January 22, 2014 by staySICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 http://finance.yahoo.com/news/yes-probably-screwed-comcast-time-152932397.html Where is the fucking line for these people? Honestly, when is the government going to do its god damn job and put its foot down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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