SomTervo Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34062118 2 journalists shot on air. A friend and I watched the video taken by the shooter. He walks up to them, points a gun at them, waits for a moment, then shoots them "FPS style". Just... come on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yeah, I saw the video. I'm surprised no one noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 What the fuck is wrong with these people? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 You can't hesitate, or else Tiffany gets it. To be somewhat serious, I imagine it's the same logic where to receive a taser you've got to be hit by one. Understanding the actual electrical force you will potentially be applying to another human being and so forth. Ergo, hesitate and receive physical feedback of your failing in a life threatening situation to yourself and to those you're sworn to protect. It's extreme, then again we have those crazy-ass gaming jackets that are suppose to simulate getting hit by in-game bullets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 I don't think it's the same as the taser thing at all. The taser thing is almost the opposite: you have to get tased so that you understand what you're doing to someone and maybe think a little bit harder before actually doing it. They're not trying to condition you to use the taser as quickly as possible without thinking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Once we get gay marriage and pot legalization through our national system, it be nice if the nation can focus in on our law enforcement and criminal justice system. I respect the individual officers that I've dealt with in the past, it was very business like, but future encounters are tainted by doubt and fear of the system they represent. I can only imagine how I would feel if I was of a "lesser" minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Once we get gay marriage and pot legalization through our national system, it be nice if the nation can focus in on our law enforcement and criminal justice system. I respect the individual officers that I've dealt with in the past, it was very business like, but future encounters are tainted by doubt and fear of the system they represent. I can only imagine how I would feel if I was of a "lesser" minority. If we haven't even figured out law enforcement and criminal justice in Seattle (where we had gay marriage and legal weed ahead of most everyone else) then the rest of the country is fucked. They'll have this all sorted in about 2075. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 My two favourite comments on the recent shooting: 1. "Yeah, but the USA has the fewest incidences of shootings *per gun* than any other country, so we're totally cool with the having guns thing." - That's because you have ALL THE GUNS. And as a general rule shootings are done with the shooters favourite few weapons, not the entire arsenal. 2. "What's needed is tougher sentencing when people commit gun crimes." - This guy, when he was done. Shot himself in the head. How are you going to come down on him harder than that?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/08/26/were-now-averaging-more-than-one-mass-shooting-per-day-in-2015/ US now averages at over 1 mass shooting a day (though lower if using FBI count that requires said people to be killed but that's setting the bar a bit too high, getting shot is getting shot). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/30/scott-walker-canada-border-wall-immigration-terrorists Now if I remember my American politics correctly if the US-Canadian border is a "legitimate issue" then the border has ways of shutting that whole thing down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/31/politics/kanye-west-2020-running-for-president-vma/ Kanye West had declared his intention to run for president in 2020. The Onion will be out of a job soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 The County Clerk in Rowan County, Kentucky, has been refusing to issue any marriage licenses at all since the Supreme Court's June ruling that states can't deny marriage licenses to gay couples, citing her "religious freedom" and opposition to gay marriage. She was sued, a federal judge ordered her in July to issue the licenses or resign her position (since she's not able to carry out her legal duties). She requested a stay pending appeal, which the judge denied. She then appealed the denial of the stay, and the court of appeals upheld the denial, so she appealed to the Supreme Court, who denied her request without comment earlier this week. So at that point she'd been ordered to issue the licenses and had used up all her opportunities to request that that order be put on hold. She still refused to comply with the order, so yesterday the original judge found her in contempt and ordered to sit in jail until she agrees to issue the licenses or resigns her position. So today her deputy clerk is in charge of the office since she's in jail, and he has started issuing the licenses. Yay! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 The County Clerk in Rowan County, Kentucky, has been refusing to issue any marriage licenses at all since the Supreme Court's June ruling that states can't deny marriage licenses to gay couples, citing her "religious freedom" and opposition to gay marriage. She was sued, a federal judge ordered her in July to issue the licenses or resign her position (since she's not able to carry out her legal duties). She requested a stay pending appeal, which the judge denied. She then appealed the denial of the stay, and the court of appeals upheld the denial, so she appealed to the Supreme Court, who denied her request without comment earlier this week. So at that point she'd been ordered to issue the licenses and had used up all her opportunities to request that that order be put on hold. She still refused to comply with the order, so yesterday the original judge found her in contempt and ordered to sit in jail until she agrees to issue the licenses or resigns her position. So today her deputy clerk is in charge of the office since she's in jail, and he has started issuing the licenses. Yay! My favourite part of this is that she has allegedly been divorced three times and married four! So... yeah. That sanctity of marriage thing is going great. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/02/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-divorced-three-times 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredEffinChopin Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 What's funny is that that meme should work equally well with Davis' religion as it does for Quakers. She's only been a Christian for a few years too. She could start worshiping trees in another few, and decide that she won't be facilitating the acquisition of any pieces of paper at all. It's great that the licenses are finally being distributed, and I get that there is no other way to enforce this, but I'm not really happy about the fact that she is in jail. Not only does it make her a martyr and likely strengthen the resolve of her and her supporters significantly, and not only will it likely make her a fuckload of crowdfunding $, but I've been increasingly unenthusiastic about the use of incarceration where it isn't absolutely necessary in recent years. It is true though, that even in my ideal world, incarceration is still a warranted last resort when someone positively refuses to stop committing certain, less serious crimes, and this certainly approaches that realm. I just wish there were were some other mechanism to regulate the office more directly than the person. Perhaps a way for her to be impeached by trial if found to be in neglect or refusal to perform her duties. Just something else. It is what it is though, and she IS in contempt, so... here we go. I sense that this is about to get hotter before it cools off. @Thursday Don't worry, that was before she was a Christian. Now she knows better, and she's been forgiven. That doesn't explain why she hasn't been scrutinizing other applications to see if they are divorcees, but hey what can you do. The fact that anyone can offer any excuse to explain that disconnect of ideological devotion is impressive enough for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Re: incarceration: the judge considered a fine, but found that because she has been receiving so much money to help her the fine wouldn't actually be a motivator, the only way is lock her up. Also, I'm fine with incarceration for contempt, because she can let herself out as soon as she feels like it, all she has to do is follow the judge's order. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredEffinChopin Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Even if she couldn't cover them, the fines could be coercive at best, and would not ensure that the office would start producing the licenses that it is supposed to. But yeah, she would definitely have received financial support. I think she still will though, and much more than she would have to cover a fine. she can let herself out as soon as she feels like it, all she has to do is follow the judge's order. That's part of the problem I have with it in this incident though, that I don't think she wants out. This is the best possible thing that could have happened to fuel the fire on the topic, and to support the false narrative that Christians are being persecuted for their beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 But yeah, she would definitely have received financial support. I think she still will though, and much more than she would have to cover a fine. But the point is now even if she receives financial support it doesn't get her out of jail, whereas it would cover her fines. That's part of the problem I have with it in this incident though, that I don't think she wants out. This is the best possible thing that could have happened to fuel the fire on the topic, and to support the false narrative that Christians are being persecuted for their beliefs. At this point I don't care about adding fuel to that false narrative, because it's one of those things that's already so divorced from reality that it's only effective within the echo chamber. The only people who would be convinced by this "evidence" are the people who already believe it anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 The dumbest part of this is that she admits that she sees the job as an opportunity to be a voice for her faith and that resigning would mean gay folks get marriage licenses, so she believes resigning would go against her religion. That is exactly what the First Amendment prohibits a government employee from doing in his or her official capacity. I was somewhat surprised the judge ordered her jailed; federal judges have very broad powers to craft contempt orders tailored to elicit compliance on the part of the contemnor; if I were he, I'd order a flat fine of maybe $500 a day pl;us whatever monies are collected by her, her law firm, her family, or any other representative under the auspices of relieving the financial burden of the fines because allowing her raise or keep any monies based on her contempt would undercut the coercive purpose of a civil contempt order. On the other hand, ordering her jailed is simpler and would avoid the hassle of examining all of her financial records and would also avoid third=parties claiming the court is trying to order them around even though they were not in court to argue in their defense. Fred: civil contempt orders are supposed to be coercive. And this isn't the sort of case where an adverse inference on credibility or missing facts would be warranted since her contempt is not related to credibility or the concealment/destruction of evidence nor would her defense really hinge upon credibility since courts generally do not examine how sincerely a person's religious beliefs are in a First Amendment defense context. There's also the issue that the licenses issued today by Rowan County do not bear the clerk's signature, which makes them facially invalid under KY law. The KY legislature can, and I assume will, change the marriage licensing law to not require the country clerks to sign off on each license, but it won't convene again until January. I imagine once the law changes so Davis does not have to sign the licenses, she'll be let out of jail. Until then, she'll be the face of bigoted martyrdom on the homophobic right wing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 What's funny is that that meme should work equally well with Davis' religion as it does for Quakers. I want to go back to this, because I'm not sure what you mean by it. The point of the meme is that a Quaker government official would not be legally within their rights to refuse to exercise their duty based on their religious beliefs, just as Davis is not. It points out the hypocrisy of Davis' supporters who would be up in arm against such an official who refused to issue gun licenses. I saw another similar meme on twitter, wondering how her supporters would feel about a Muslim DMV official refusing to grant drivers' licenses on the basis of a religious objection to female drivers. Surely the vast majority of them would see that as "creeping sharia" and would demand the official be removed immediately. Which obviously that DMV official should be, because again they're not willing to do their job, but the point is that the people supporting Davis have a very warped view of religious freedom. When it's Christian religious principals at stake any action by the government to stop them from imposing their beliefs on others is an affront to religious freedom, but when it's other religions' principals any acknowledgement by the government that people have a right to exercise their religion is seen as the establishment of a theocratic state. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredEffinChopin Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 But yeah, she would definitely have received financial support. I think she still will though, and much more than she would have to cover a fine. But the point is now even if she receives financial support it doesn't get her out of jail, whereas it would cover her fines. That may be the point if you're primarily concerned with her punishment. I'm personally not all that interested in seeing her punished, I feel like the most important thing was to get the licenses issued to everyone who is trying to marry. I was agreeing with you and presumably the judge about the pointlessness of a fine in that quote, but pointing out that that fear is still valid, even with her in jail. The important difference is that she can't effect the office from jail, not that she's able to dodge any of her imposed penalties. That's part of the problem I have with it in this incident though, that I don't think she wants out. This is the best possible thing that could have happened to fuel the fire on the topic, and to support the false narrative that Christians are being persecuted for their beliefs. At this point I don't care about adding fuel to that false narrative, because it's one of those things that's already so divorced from reality that it's only effective within the echo chamber. The only people who would be convinced by this "evidence" are the people who already believe it anyway. That false narrative and ones like it are the exact reason that this issue exists the way it does today, as well as the reason it will persist as one, and so I think it's actually very important to acknowledge how it's played into. I'm not saying we should cater to every such narrative out there to the point of absurdity, but I think it should be considered when deciding how to handle this situation, as those delusional points of view have done more than create some awkward discussions. What's funny is that that meme should work equally well with Davis' religion as it does for Quakers. I want to go back to this, because I'm not sure what you mean by it. It means Christians are supposed to be pacifists too... It means you should be able to insert her religion into that meme without changing its point. Fred: civil contempt orders are supposed to be coercive. In this case it would have been to the point of futility. Even in the situation you described, the current state of affairs in regards to the distribution of licenses could be held in a similar state to its current one for quite a while, to the point where a similar result would have to have been reached anyway, which I think is why she is in jail today. To that point, as I said earlier, I think the decision makes sense. I just generally don't like seeing people in jail, and I think that it's regrettable from the standpoint of the motivating rhetoric behind her supporters that the move will give them a platform from which they can play the victim. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Her supporters would play the victim in any scenario in which the courts allow her to continue to violate the Establishment Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment. She can affect the operation of the office from jail as long as she doesn't resign; she's still the other clerks' boss and their issuance of licenses today goes against her directives and she may even be able to fire them from jail. But you're right; if she was no imprisoned, no licenses would have been issued today. But those licenses may not be valid under KY law since they lack her signature, anyway, so the jury is still out on whether imprisonment is truly more effective than fines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 My concern isn't in seeing her punished, it's in ensuring the law of the land is followed and the licenses are issued. I agree with the judge that fining her would not have been effective to that end. On the validity issue, I wonder what the situation would be if she had been hit by a truck and was unconscious in the hospital. Surely that wouldn't deprive the clerk's office of its ability to issue marriage licenses... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 The clerks would be authorized to use her stamp, or the equivalent, if she were unfit for service, or KY law empowers a different official to appoint a temporary clerk if the clerk is incapacitated, I am fairly certain. In the stamp scenario, I think they would be generally authorized to use the stamp after the applicants' application for a license was found to comport with KY law. Now, however, she has not authorized the use of her signature stamp so they cannot use it. it may not exactly be this scenario, but I'd wager it's something like this. Furthermore, IIRC, KY law makes it an obligation upon the clerks to certify all legal marriage applications, but here she has forbidden her clerks from processing any applications. Now that their boss is in jail, she can't immediately fire them for giving out marriage licenses. More importantly, the Court has essentially ordered them to process licenses or face contempt and end up in the clink with their boss. This is just an educated guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 http://www.americaisachristiannation.com/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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