Thursday Next Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 I think that what he is saying is that education is a result of wealth just as a poor education is a result of poverty, however being uneducated, unlike e.g. being black is the perception that it is something that an individual can be blamed for. A poor black person can look to the inherent racism of the system and say "it is your fault" and the almost entirely white wealthy class can't argue effectively against that. An uneducated person points to the system saying "it's your fault" and the erudite wealthy can look at them and say "no it isn't you should have worked harder in school like I did". It offloads the guilt that the poor are poor by happenstance and that you are lucky to be wealthy and replaces it with the notion that "I worked hard to learn so I am wealthy. You did not so you are poor." It's almost a reflection of the Victorian way of thinking. The poor choose to be poor, so it's not a problem. Of course that argument is bullshit. A good education is as much a product of wealth as it is a cause for it, which Chris Arnade recognises. But if you line the chicken and the egg up right you get to pass off the class divide as one of lazy v industrious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pojodin Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Except his tweet that the new US hierarchy is based on education is wrong. The hierarchy is based on your parents' wealth, full stop. Class mobility is very poor in the US. Education is no longer a gateway to steady work unless your family has money. There are exceptions to the rule that get trotted out to make the US look like a meritocracy, but the data strongly suggests that mobility is the outlier. x2 on a lot of this. I know more people who have become impoverished because of higher education and not being able to find jobs in their field that are available or pay enough to offset said education costs. Many of my friends got a bachelors degree and left the country. Japan, Russia, several places across Europe, Korea, Australia, etc. Several went abroad to teach English for a few years, which definitely wasn't their major. Some left permanently. The traveling I have done and the variety of people I've interacted with points largely to what Mr. GOH said. Sans a few people who hit home runs and work for Microsoft or became pro athletes, most of the people I know are scraping by working 3+ part time jobs both in and out of their field to offset living expenses. Between education and required health care costs, many have had to move back in with their parents or find a way to set up group living situations to scrape by. I work in IT, and it's a very hit and miss field in terms of work conditions and pay. My last job ran my health into the ground. Over-worked, underpaid, and fighting in a field that is so overloaded with qualified candidates that the job field largely changed into a short-term contract field. 3, 6, 12, and 24 month contract jobs abound, but the lack of job security and inconsistency with benefits combined with the huge supply of IT people available makes IT a drastically less lucrative field than years past. I found a solid full-time job with okay pay and good benefits that allows me to use vacation time. I've declined jobs that have offered upwards of triple what I'm making because I refuse to do 24-7 coverage anymore and won't won't take a contract job when I'm currently full time. I definitely have suggested trade schools to people who were undecided on what to do after high school. I only have a handful of friends who went through trade school, but they are largely the most financially stable people I know right now. Their jobs are by no means easy or glamorous, but they're necessary and they are certainly deserving of the extra money they earn for performing them. About the only route I've actively warned people about is entrepreneurship and starting a business. It's a high risk gamble that requires absolute dedication of a person's life in order for it to have a chance to succeed. The couple entrepreneurs I know that have succeeded largely did so at the expense of others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 The problem is that, in the US, any university education but an elite education does not truly improve one's lot compared to one's parents. That is, the gatekeeper to class mobility is no longer a college education. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pojodin Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) Quite true. Edited November 2, 2016 by Pojodin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 x2 on a lot of this. I know more people who have become impoverished because of higher education and not being able to find jobs in their field that are available or pay enough to offset said education costs. Many of my friends got a bachelors degree and left the country. Japan, Russia, several places across Europe, Korea, Australia, etc. Several went abroad to teach English for a few years, which definitely wasn't their major. Some left permanently. The traveling I have done and the variety of people I've interacted with points largely to what Mr. GOH said. Sans a few people who hit home runs and work for Microsoft or became pro athletes, most of the people I know are scraping by working 3+ part time jobs both in and out of their field to offset living expenses. Between education and required health care costs, many have had to move back in with their parents or find a way to set up group living situations to scrape by. Sounds almost like me and a vast majority of the geo grads I know. To say that it is downright terrifying is an understatement. Jobs are few and far between and we're not even asking for oil and gas jobs (it'd be great though...) which hit the shitter two years ago. I believe Wally's old job was a casualty from this same downturn that is still kicking our asses. It's in the process of recovery now but it might take another year or two at best. What the fuck are those who graduated between two years ago and the recovery going to do? What the fuck are those who got laid off going to do? Yes, they say stay connected but I might have more chances with connecting with a bullet than an oil and gas job. Going back to the election and education and why people vote the way they do... people who have a college education tend to vote liberal. The large numbers is fostered by the dream of bettering oneself through higher education which was a reality. Still possible but so much harder, even to just have an okay career/job*. The educated but now impoverished people can become disillusioned and start going against the ideals and beliefs that brought them to their predicament in the first place. Most don't however since most (hopefully) have enough critical thinking left in them (instead of envy, fear and anger) to see that the goals of the right, as it stands now and for a long while, is against our goals. Not to say those who vote left are not disillusioned with old blood Democrats. Those without a good education... well shit. This ignores/glosses over things like racism, xenophobia and the like. * This is perhaps the biggest problem. People are having issues maintaining their lives. This issue morphs into this following problem: If you think (mine perhaps) alcohol abuse is bad, take a look at heroin and the like. If I make the switch to being a firefighter, I'll be reviving multiple people from ODs daily with increasingly larger doses of the anti-OD drug. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Dat BBC poll tracker http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37450661 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Oh holy fuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Don;t worry, 538 has stabilized with Clinton at 65% chance to win. The Brits know shit about polling (see: Brexit polling). I think I am just going to not follow the news until 9 p.m. next Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Yeah, and I've been watching the NYT predictions that have her at 84% (which is still 9 points lower than a week ago) but I can't shake the fear that I'm just falling for this mass delusion and he really will win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Me too. It's unhealthy. Edit: I've had legit nightmares about this election in general and poll trackers in particular. Like, in my dream I wake up and check my phone and see that Trump has a 90% chance to win on 538 sort of nightmare. Edited November 4, 2016 by Mr. GOH! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 http://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/03/politicus-presidential-projection-map-november-3-2016.html Maybe this will ease your minds a bit. Even with his his recent poll increase, Trump would need to win pretty much every single swing state to seize the presidency. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 And I also need to keep reminding myself that like 30 million people have already voted and exit polls have Clinton double digits ahead among those people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Don;t worry, 538 has stabilized with Clinton at 65% chance to win. The Brits know shit about polling (see: Brexit polling). Actually, many have pointed out that the later polls were showing Leave ahead or either side within normal margins of error. And I believe Nate Silver got the GE and the EU Ref wrong. I did link a thing a while back about how potentially corrupt our polling is over here though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) I've got a full handle of whiskey. It'll be a fun day. /s Edited November 8, 2016 by MAGA-H 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 TCP can I come stay with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Better make plans soon. We might get a wall on that border too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Quite the bit of unexpected swinging states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 The reactions to this are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I really like Google's stat tracking, and it's showing me how sad this whole affair is. Even with all the advertisements we get about voting, I'm seeing a trend here of not many people going out to the polls. It could be the case that since people don't like either presidential candidate they just don't want to vote. That's unbelievably stupid as you're voting for so much more on the damn ballot. Hell, you don't have to vote on everything on the ballot and that includes the President. Is it ass-backwards? Yeah, but technically you can. Just don't bitch when your state governor is doing something you don't agree with because you missed the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I can't shake the fear that I'm just falling for this mass delusion and he really will win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Hell, you don't have to vote on everything on the ballot and that includes the President. That's exactly what I did. I voted for everything except for president. I'm in California so I actually do have room to fume about the Democrat establishment. Would I buckle and vote for Hillary in a battleground state? Hard to say but I'm leaning no. As the results are showing, something is fucked in this country. An insane amount of people are feeling trapped, cheated for numerous reasons. Some reasons are legit and some absolutely abhorrent. I want the next president or two to address those legit reasons. As of right now this is way too close for comfort and at the end of this night or tomorrow it might become reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Something's fucked in the system so let's elect a literal white supremacist fascist as president, makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I just learned of Nevada's "None of these candidates" option, which seems really useless as even if it were to win, the actual candidate with the highest percentage wins. I wonder how different voting in Nevada is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 If no one wins, it goes to the roadrunner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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