Thursday Next Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I assume you are referring to the part that prohibits passing laws impeding the free exercise of religion. It seems to me that a law prohibiting "no contraceptives on health plan for workers in a Catholic hospital rules" in no way impedes the Catholic Hospital's freedom to express its religion. The Hospital is still free to say that it believes abstinence is the only form of contraception that a good Catholic should use they just can't refuse to help people who think differently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Question: I'm maybe missing something here. Why can your employers dictate what health care you're provided? Surely that's a bit out of their realm of control. They can maybe fire you if you get pregnant(I'd hope not, but I hear terrible things of US job laws), end up off all the time with cancer treatments, etc. But surely they don't get to step in and actually say "no, my employee isn't getting that cancer treatment"? It's none of your employers goddamn business what you have to get better. Excepting taking an interest in order to maybe judge how long you'll be off for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It seems to me that a law prohibiting "no contraceptives on health plan for workers in a Catholic hospital rules" in no way impedes the Catholic Hospital's freedom to express its religion. The Hospital is still free to say that it believes abstinence is the only form of contraception that a good Catholic should use they just can't refuse to help people who think differently. That's where the question of Liberty comes up. Just as I would not expect a Jehovah's Witness organization to pay for a blood transfusion or a Christian Scientist organization to pay for anything! I'm not Catholic and I'm not opposed to BC pills but I am opposed to the government telling a church what to do. To me, that's an infringement on one's Liberty! Also, I really think the whole ZOMG! People NEED Birth Control is a rather annoying argument to me because BC generics are quite cheap. Walmart, Target, Walgreens, various grocery stores etc. in the name of Capitalism and competition have these wonderful $4 generics programs that include Birth Control pills (some are $8-$9 apparently) which is less than the copay on most insurance plans. http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/genericdruglist.pdf http://sites.target.com/site/en/spot/page.jsp?title=pharmacy_generic_drugs_condition Seriously, this is a great program for more than just BC. A local NY/NE chain of grocery stores (Price Chopper) is even giving away free Diabetes meds and antibiotics! When someone I know had Lyme disease all their meds were free! The catch is of course that while waiting the half hour for them to fill your prescription you'll most likely do your grocery shopping there. Sounds like a good deal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Question: I'm maybe missing something here. Why can your employers dictate what health care you're provided? Surely that's a bit out of their realm of control. They can maybe fire you if you get pregnant(I'd hope not, but I hear terrible things of US job laws), end up off all the time with cancer treatments, etc. But surely they don't get to step in and actually say "no, my employee isn't getting that cancer treatment"? It's none of your employers goddamn business what you have to get better. Excepting taking an interest in order to maybe judge how long you'll be off for. Well the whole employee healthcare thing is kind of a huge mess. I'm not 100% sure so correct me if I'm wrong on this but basically corporations figued out that they could offer "benefits" to employees and those would not count as direct wages and so the companies could in effect pay more to their employees while lowering their tax burden. Congress liked this because it helped increase health coverage which is a good thing. So now most people in the US get part of their medical insurance paid for by their employer. It's generally much more expensive for an individual or family to purchase medical care for themselves and you almost certainly can't get your employer to just give you cash instead of the benefits. The whole system is complete nonsense at this point. It's a major reason why healthcare costs are out of control in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yeah, the issue isn't employers refusing to allow their employees to get certain procedures, it's employers refusing to provide health care plans that cover those procedures. Since most Americans get their health coverage through their employer and cannot afford to get an individual plan it means that those people can't get insurance coverage of those services. They can still get the services, but they have to pay for them out of pocket. @Thursday: the argument is that if the Catholic hospital has to provide a health care plan that covers birth control then they're being forced to pay for something that's against their religion, thus they're not being allowed to freely exercise their religion. I don't agree, but I don't think the argument can just be casually dismissed either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202?link=mostpopular1 Not gonna lie; this article had me in tears by the end of it. Probably the saddest article I've ever read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I somehow got a subscription to rolling stone for free from best buy on accident. I think the cashier rang me up for it without asking. I called to cancel it after 2 issues even though it was free because I was so offended by their political drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Question: I'm maybe missing something here. Why can your employers dictate what health care you're provided? Surely that's a bit out of their realm of control. As of right now, your employer does not have to provide insurance. That changes under Obamacare but there will be plenty of waivers given out to crony capitalists. Besides, employers in the US sometimes offer multiple plans for the employees to choose from based on what they are able to pay for. They can maybe fire you if you get pregnant(I'd hope not, but I hear terrible things of US job laws), In the US, unless you are part of a collective bargaining contract or have an individual contract you are an "At-Will" employee and can quit or be discharged at any time for any reason except on the cases of discrimination (e.g. firing a woman simply for being pregnant, because of race etc.) "no, my employee isn't getting that cancer treatment"? It's none of your employers goddamn business what you have to get better. Excepting taking an interest in order to maybe judge how long you'll be off for. It's not that way at all. The employers (in this case, Catholic based employers) would purchase a plan from a health insurance provider with no coverage for birth control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I somehow got a subscription to rolling stone for free from best buy on accident. I think the cashier rang me up for it without asking. I called to cancel it after 2 issues even though it was free because I was so offended by their political drivel. Yeah, Rolling Stone is so horrible it isn't even worth using as toilet paper. Still, it can be used to start your chimney starter for your grill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It seems to me that a law prohibiting "no contraceptives on health plan for workers in a Catholic hospital rules" in no way impedes the Catholic Hospital's freedom to express its religion. The Hospital is still free to say that it believes abstinence is the only form of contraception that a good Catholic should use they just can't refuse to help people who think differently. That's where the question of Liberty comes up. Just as I would not expect a Jehovah's Witness organization to pay for a blood transfusion or a Christian Scientist organization to pay for anything! I'm not Catholic and I'm not opposed to BC pills but I am opposed to the government telling a church what to do. To me, that's an infringement on one's Liberty! The catholic organisation isn't being forced to take the pills though. They're still free to turn them down as in line with their religious doctrine. No ones religious freedom is being infringed upon except by those that are being told what they can and cannot do by religious establishments. It's pretty much just gov't stepping in and saying "well, we're the law actually. Stop telling others what they can and can't do. That's our job". @Yante: Then surely the uneven and unfair healthcare provided through corporations could be resolved by...maybe some kind of... national health service or something...? edit: Woops, seems the "umpteen posts" pop-up failed to launch for me p.s currently reading through the rolling stones thing. May be a while on a response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 @Dean, well, if we wanted out healtcare to be like yours then yes. I however would prefer to have it go back to individuals rights to purchase health care and get tax breaks themselves as opposed to doing it all through corporations which creates and entire obfuscation layer which is total unnecessary and also prevents any sort of market forces from actually doing their job. The solution is providing more market forces on healthcare not less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 http://www.rollingst...nk=mostpopular1 Not gonna lie; this article had me in tears by the end of it. Probably the saddest article I've ever read. It is really disgusting how tiny groups full of loudmouthed bigots can have that much sway. Now that the article's out there, these people deserve whatever harassment they get as a result. Let's see how they like it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 The catholic organisation isn't being forced to take the pills though. They're still free to turn them down as in line with their religious doctrine. No ones religious freedom is being infringed upon except by those that are being told what they can and cannot do by religious establishments. It's pretty much just gov't stepping in and saying "well, we're the law actually. Stop telling others what they can and can't do. That's our job". the argument is that if the Catholic hospital has to provide a health care plan that covers birth control then they're being forced to pay for something that's against their religion, thus they're not being allowed to freely exercise their religion. I don't agree, but I don't think the argument can just be casually dismissed either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It is really disgusting how tiny groups full of loudmouthed bigots can have that much sway. Now that the article's out there, these people deserve whatever harassment they get as a result. Let's see how they like it. Shouldn't the proper response be to end harassment? you want to fight harassment with more harassment? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 You reap what you sow. You might as well be asking me to feel sympathy for the Westboro Baptist Church. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 You reap what you sow. You might as well be asking me to feel sympathy for the Westboro Baptist Church. Except that the kids who did the harassing didn't reap what they sewed. They picked on kids who then committed suicide... Not really sure what you're on about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I'm talking about the PAL more than the kids, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were soon being held accountable for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 The catholic organisation isn't being forced to take the pills though. They're still free to turn them down as in line with their religious doctrine. No ones religious freedom is being infringed upon except by those that are being told what they can and cannot do by religious establishments. It's pretty much just gov't stepping in and saying "well, we're the law actually. Stop telling others what they can and can't do. That's our job". the argument is that if the Catholic hospital has to provide a health care plan that covers birth control then they're being forced to pay for something that's against their religion, thus they're not being allowed to freely exercise their religion. I don't agree, but I don't think the argument can just be casually dismissed either. But their religion tells them to do plenty of things you aren't allowed to do any more. Where does what "religious freedom" covers stop and a nations laws begin? Law > Religion. Your religion < Other peoples health and well being. It's much like the opposition to smoking. You're free to destroy your body, but when it starts effecting other people, then sod off. It is really disgusting how tiny groups full of loudmouthed bigots can have that much sway. Now that the article's out there, these people deserve whatever harassment they get as a result. Let's see how they like it. Shouldn't the proper response be to end harassment? you want to fight harassment with more harassment? Well folks could remain neutral I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It is really disgusting how tiny groups full of loudmouthed bigots can have that much sway. Now that the article's out there, these people deserve whatever harassment they get as a result. Let's see how they like it. Shouldn't the proper response be to end harassment? you want to fight harassment with more harassment? We've tried ending harrassment before, but that just leads the bigots to get worse and worse. It's time to fight fire with fire, to show those evil, heartless bastards that we won't tolerate their hateful attitude anymore. I am tired of the good individuals being punched to the ground by these inhuman monsters who wield religion as a weapon of pure hate. These suicides, this bullying, this horrid abuse of life sponsored by "family" and religious groups... it will stop and it will stop NOW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I somehow got a subscription to rolling stone for free from best buy on accident. I think the cashier rang me up for it without asking. I called to cancel it after 2 issues even though it was free because I was so offended by their political drivel. Yeah, Rolling Stone is so horrible it isn't even worth using as toilet paper. Still, it can be used to start your chimney starter for your grill. Funny, because based on that National Review post you shared, I could say the same thing about that garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 We've tried ending harrassment before, but that just leads the bigots to get worse and worse. It's time to fight fire with fire, to show those evil, heartless bastards that we won't tolerate their hateful attitude anymore. I am tired of the good individuals being punched to the ground by these inhuman monsters who wield religion as a weapon of pure hate. These suicides, this bullying, this horrid abuse of life sponsored by "family" and religious groups... it will stop and it will stop NOW. So what exactly are you advocating? Violence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixTwoSixFour Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 We've tried ending harrassment before, but that just leads the bigots to get worse and worse. It's time to fight fire with fire, to show those evil, heartless bastards that we won't tolerate their hateful attitude anymore. I am tired of the good individuals being punched to the ground by these inhuman monsters who wield religion as a weapon of pure hate. These suicides, this bullying, this horrid abuse of life sponsored by "family" and religious groups... it will stop and it will stop NOW. So what exactly are you advocating? Violence? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Where does what "religious freedom" covers stop and a nations laws begin? That's the $64,000 question. And the 1st amendment, with it's whole "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thing makes it even more complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 We've tried ending harrassment before, but that just leads the bigots to get worse and worse. It's time to fight fire with fire, to show those evil, heartless bastards that we won't tolerate their hateful attitude anymore. I am tired of the good individuals being punched to the ground by these inhuman monsters who wield religion as a weapon of pure hate. These suicides, this bullying, this horrid abuse of life sponsored by "family" and religious groups... it will stop and it will stop NOW. So what exactly are you advocating? Violence? Hardly. Your side has been constantly suggesting that there's been a "war on religion", even though the only aggression has been religion against everyone else. Well, guess what? We're no longer going to be nice about it, let you go about your business saying "We believe what we believe, and leave it at that." We have left it at that, but it's been the church that has attempted to force their beliefs on everyone else, going as far as raping, killing, murdering, and convincing others to commit suicide. Next time someone uses God as a justification to do anything, I will not let it slide. I will let them know with my voice that what they're doing is wrong because what they believe is wrong. We will not use spears, knives, or flames like the religious do. Our weapons will be reason, facts, and an inability to allow unspeakable acts to continue unpunished. Our actions will not be with that of violence, but of common sense. Though of course, if my life is ever endangered by religion, I may have no choice but to stoop to their level and truly fight fire with fire. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Next time someone uses God as a justification to do anything, I will not let it slide. I will let them know with my voice that what they're doing is wrong because what they believe is wrong. We will not use spears, knives, or flames like the religious do. Our weapons will be reason, facts, and an inability to allow unspeakable acts to continue unpunished. Our actions will not be with that of violence, but of common sense. Though of course, if my life is ever endangered by religion, I may have no choice but to stoop to their level and truly fight fire with fire. I think the chances of that are about nil unless you decide to move to the Muslim world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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