TheMightyEthan Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Oh yeah, sorry, I believed you that he said it, I just didn't personally remember hearing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 It's cool. It's just better to have sources. I was second guessing myself as well since I hadn't thought about that debate in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Honestly, the only thing I found shocking was that he wasn't already in support of gay marriage. I guess I somehow missed that in the last election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Jim Geraghty of National Review summed it up nicely "The Barack Obama of Wednesday denounces the Barack Obama of Monday as a closed-minded bigot." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Honestly, the only thing I found shocking was that he wasn't already in support of gay marriage. I guess I somehow missed that in the last election. Without tracking down the quote, he said something when running for Senator about how he supported it. I think he's always (or at least for several years) supported it, he just waffled in public to avoid alienating people, but finally came out (no pun intended) with it once the spotlight was shone on it and he had to say something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Regarding gay donations, your link says about one in six Obama donees is gay. Isn't that roughly the ratio of homosexuals to heterosexuals anyway? [in 2010] The National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior interviewed nearly 6,000 people nationwide between the ages of 14 and 94 found that 7 percent of women and 8 percent of men identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States So it's more like 1/12 or 1/13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 he just waffled in public to avoid alienating people This is one of those things that I really can't stand about Obama. He's so disingenuous about a lot of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 So basically you're saying he's a politician? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 God forbid Obama might be able to just change his opinion over time. The public flip-flopping wasn't too endearing but at least he got over it eventually. And while I don't like Dick Cheney at ALL I at least respect his progressive attitude on this one particular issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) So basically you're saying he's a politician? Believe it or not, not every politician waffles like John Kerry. God forbid Obama might be able to just change his opinion over time. The public flip-flopping wasn't too endearing but at least he got over it eventually. And while I don't like Dick Cheney at ALL I at least respect his progressive attitude on this one particular issue. I don't believe he ever changed his mind. Edited May 10, 2012 by Yantelope V2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftwaffles Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 So basically you're saying he's a politician? Believe it or not, not every politician waffles like John Kerry. Or John McCain, or Sarah Palin, or Mitt Romney, or Rick Santorum, or Newt Gingrich, or Ronald Reagan, or Richard Nixon, or... the list goes on and on. Waffling is distinctly politician, not limited to Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Greens, Libertarians, Communists, whatever. I don't see why this argument gets tossed around so much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) I'm not saying it's a problem only Obama has. I am saying it's not a problem every politician has. Obama postures so much I'm amazed he hasn't thrown his back out yet. Mr. Southside boy who doesn't even know what stadium his favorite baseball team plays in. Also, "everyone is disingenuous" is not a rebuttal to the fact that Obama is disingenuous. You might have thought Bush a moron or a liar or whatever but at least he didn't put on Jay Z and pretend to dance to it to appeal to the black crowd. Obama will pretty much pretend to do or say whatever he wants to appeal to anyone. Sure lots of people do it on both sides of the aisle and I hate it when anyone does it on either side of the aisle. So anyway, I'm glad we all agree, Obama is disingenuous. Why do so many people on the left think that saying "everyone does that" makes it so much better when defending all the liars and losers in their party? Shouldn't your response to pick people and the left who aren't liars and fakers? Edited May 10, 2012 by Yantelope V2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Why do so many people on the left think that saying "everyone does that" makes it so much better when defending all the liars and losers in their party? Shouldn't your response to pick people and the left who aren't liars and fakers? It's not just people on the left, people of all leanings do that when the people they support do stuff like this (assuming they'll even admit it's what's happening). I would guess it's because people feel like the fact that (almost) every politician does it means it's not a reason to choose someone else, because the others aren't any better about it. DISCLAIMER: I'm not defending the defense, just saying it's not only the one group who does it. *Edit* - I guess blanket statements like that carry an implication of saying "and the people I'm not talking about are better about it/don't do it," so people naturally want to refute that attack. Edited May 10, 2012 by TheMightyEthan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 I don't agree almost every politician does it. Maybe it only seems that way to democrats who only pay attention to their own politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Why do so many people on the left think that saying "everyone does that" makes it so much better when defending all the liars and losers in their party? Shouldn't your response to pick people and the left who aren't liars and fakers? I do agree that it's dumb to dismiss valid criticism by saying "other people do it too!". My comment was mostly a joke. I was taking a stab at politics in general. That said, I don't really think of this as a huge deal. It is my belief that all politicians - or at least all successful ones - censor their opinions and aren't completely honest. Obama choosing to not speak out about homosexual marriage until the most strategically sound moment to do so, feels like such a harmless thing in comparison to other deceptive behavior politicians get caught at. While I'd have had more respect for him speaking out about this sooner, that he does so at all gives him bonus points in my book in comparison to most politicians who are either against or stay silent. In addition, I must point out that I distinctly remember you quite seriously doing exactly what you're now complaining about, just a few pages back. Here's an article about the book. Note that Mann and Ornstein have mean things to say about the Dems, too. Ornstein works for the conservative American Enterprise Institute, but that doesn't stop him from recognizing that the modern GOP is terrifying and plays to ignorance and base fear. Hmm, ignorance and fear? Global warming: fear Keynesian economics: ignorance Obamacare: based in ignorance sold by fear A bit hypocritical, is it not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted May 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Why do so many people on the left think that saying "everyone does that" makes it so much better when defending all the liars and losers in their party? Shouldn't your response to pick people and the left who aren't liars and fakers? I don't know, shouldn't Republicans refuse to back a candidate that bullied children because of their perceived sexuality? http://www.washingto...ry.html?hpid=z2 Also, "Everyone does that" is hardly a left-only defense. I've seen plenty of people defend Bush and Cheney's horrid actions with those same words. Edited May 10, 2012 by DukeOfPwn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorgiShinobi Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 A single incident from '65 being brought up now where the story has two different tellings between the Washington Post and ABC News. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/romney-friend-stu-white-says-campaign-wants-him-to-counter-prank-accusations/ He said, she said. Some say he was malicious in school, others saying clownish. Believing that one never changes but merely hides their true self, so in politics we have to dig for the dirt that will reveal the golden truth of a candidate. Cause, you know, Obama ate dog, but Romney beats his dog too! It's confirmed, 2012 is "for the dogs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 Why do so many people on the left think that saying "everyone does that" makes it so much better when defending all the liars and losers in their party? Shouldn't your response to pick people and the left who aren't liars and fakers? I do agree that it's dumb to dismiss valid criticism by saying "other people do it too!". My comment was mostly a joke. I was taking a stab at politics in general. That said, I don't really think of this as a huge deal. It is my belief that all politicians - or at least all successful ones - censor their opinions and aren't completely honest. Obama choosing to not speak out about homosexual marriage until the most strategically sound moment to do so, feels like such a harmless thing in comparison to other deceptive behavior politicians get caught at. While I'd have had more respect for him speaking out about this sooner, that he does so at all gives him bonus points in my book in comparison to most politicians who are either against or stay silent. In addition, I must point out that I distinctly remember you quite seriously doing exactly what you're now complaining about, just a few pages back. Here's an article about the book. Note that Mann and Ornstein have mean things to say about the Dems, too. Ornstein works for the conservative American Enterprise Institute, but that doesn't stop him from recognizing that the modern GOP is terrifying and plays to ignorance and base fear. Hmm, ignorance and fear? Global warming: fear Keynesian economics: ignorance Obamacare: based in ignorance sold by fear A bit hypocritical, is it not? Well, this is only slightly different in that Obama was actually a direct accusation on a person whereas saying "the right uses fear and ignorance" is more of a broad sweeping statement. I was only making the point that the left does the same and not trying to defend the right if they do use fear and ignorance (which I don't believe they do or at least not to the extent the left does). So I yield that I did something similar but I don't think it's apples to apples. If Goh! had said "the right sold the Bush tax cuts with fear and ignorance" I would perhaps have tried to rebut that with something more concrete. Anywho, yes, I understand why people are cynical in general when it comes to politics and I myself am a bit of a cynic. I just think there are some genuine politicians. If people would tell me "I agree with Obama but he's a politician" that would be more palatable to me but it seems like people genuinely like him which bugs me because as I said, he seems so fake and that bothers me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 You're splitting hairs and it's obvious to everyone watching. It's not making you look any better. Regarding Obama's popularity: Regardless of how good a president he is, the man's got charm in spades. I'm kind of surprised you don't see that. It's how he won the last election. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 Yup. Obama is cool. He's able to connect with "Joe Public" in a way that most politicians cannot. He's a bit of a Clinton in that respect. Just seems like a very accessible guy. Put him up against Ed Miliband and I'd vote for the guy every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 Obama is disingenuous, and I freely admit that most folks who feel any personal affection for him, aside from folks who know him personally, are likely just projecting. This is true of all politicians. I mean, I don't think there's been a pres candidate since Carter who wasn't disingenuous. Carter had many, many other problems, however. But I do like how folks voting for Romney do not like him personally and sort of distrust him. Which makes sense, since he's an empty suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 Obama is disingenuous, and I freely admit that most folks who feel any personal affection for him, aside from folks who know him personally, are likely just projecting. This is true of all politicians. I mean, I don't think there's been a pres candidate since Carter who wasn't disingenuous. Carter had many, many other problems, however I think Carter was (perhaps only surpassed by Wilson, Harding or LBJ) as one of the worst presidents of the 20th century. That said, from reports I've read he seems to be a very reasonable, likable guy who does what he thinks is right. He was just way in over his head. Nixon is the other end of the spectrum. He never connected with the public despite winning two landslides. He was secretive, paranoid and very uncomfortable about himself. Neither were good presidents by any stretch of the imagination but I think it shows that personality really doesn't have much to do with how well you'll do as a president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 You're splitting hairs and it's obvious to everyone watching. It's not making you look any better. I disagree. I actually agree with what Yant said. I think what he did is more in line with what I said about it's not just the left doing things on the previous page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted May 11, 2012 Report Share Posted May 11, 2012 The more I thought about it the less I really believe that most or all politicians are disingenuous. I can think of many politicians on either side who are completely fine being exactly who they are. Again, Bush always acted like a cowboy Texan and that's kind of how I think he really was. He still goes to baseball games even though he's not president because that was actually something he liked doing. Ted Kennedy never seemed to be trying to be something he's not. I hated what he was but I didn't feel like he was fake. So yeah, I don't think all politicians are disingenuous. I think there are a lot of politicians on both sides who are. It might have been 50/50. Anyway, I typically don't like anyone who is fake. Obama is not charming to me. He comes off as arrogant, fake and calculating. I don't know if anyone has actually seen him be himself save for some of those old leaked videos of his college days. I will also say that he's got way more backbone than I thought he did. He's been a steadfast leftist socialist from day one and I really thought he'd care more about polls than he actually does. He has morals and he sticks to them like glue. The posturing is always surface level. He pretends to like certain things as long as they're good for PR and if they ever go bad he dumps them but his values remain the same no matter how miserably they fail or how low his polls go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battra92 Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 The more I thought about it the less I really believe that most or all politicians are disingenuous. I can think of many politicians on either side who are completely fine being exactly who they are. Joe Leiberman is perhaps one of the few politicians I can respect for honesty. A lot of Democrats grew to despise him because he refused to play their talking points game bashing the armed services. He took the high road and got a lot more respect from me. I still disagree with him 90% of the time but he seems like a good guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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