Homosexuality and Games

[Hot Heart]

OK, since it's the current hot debate, I'll open the can of worms.

 

Starting with an article here by Andrew Meade, Jim Sterling then took it into provocative territory (as if he could do it any other way) and then Patricia over at Nightmare Mode had her say.

I hate to sound harsh, and it may be like asking you to study for an essay, but I would be most appreciative if you could read and comprehend these before weighing in.

 

On Twitter, there's been some discussion between a few of us here, but I wanted to see what other people thought.

 

Personally, I can support what Andrew and Patricia are saying. I don't see the harm in having a gay protagonist like Nathan Drake; not making him gay, or BioWare's shoehorning with Shepard in ME3. In the same way that female Shepard barely acts any differently to male Shepard, it gives it a natural/normal appearance and acceptance.

 

All other forms of entertainment can embrace this, why not videogames?

 

Dean and Mason say they don't see the point because, unless you resort to stereotypes or shoehorning, you wouldn't be able to differentiate. Plus, gay people are happy to play as heterosexual characters anyway. Just because you're not being 'inclusive' it doesn't mean that you're excluding them.

 

I think that's a bit presumptious but then, I would like to hear from gay people on the matter as I can only plead ignorance here.

 

The other thing is that many feel games writing, AAA games in this instance, is not up to that standard so should not even attempt it. I can agree that games writing can be 'clumsy' but I don't see why we should accept the status quo. You don't get anywhere if you're not constantly questioning and challenging your surroundings, or taking risks.

 

Before I waffle on anymore, I'll shut up and listen.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Hot Heart

[Strangelove]

Andrew Meade is fucking 'tarded. That was such an awful article. He says hes not about pandering, but his idea for Uncharted is pandering. I suppose he views Nathan Drake as not manly enough to be straight, and his relationship with Sully as a bit above bromance. Might as well make Indiana Jones gay too.

He might as well say the same thing about Marcus Fenix. Oh, but he can't. That dude just looks TOO manly.

That thought process in itself is fucked up and strereotypical.

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I read Jim Sterling's thing. Its just as bad. Two straight guys making awful decisions on making a gay character.

 

This whole debate is an awful one. Im ok with gamers discussing it among themselves, but its not something that should be on Destructoid or any better site. Gamers want videogames to be as well regarded as all other media, but gamers are the only ones who clamor for it. You demand something thats subjective like its deserved. Reminds me of the whole "videogames are/aren't art" bullshit. You cant push shit on people like a FPS or open world fad. Art and homosexuality deserve a lot more respect and it has a lot more substance than to be manipulated that way.

 

And to be honest, main videogame characters being gay wouldnt change a goddamn thing. At all. Videogames would have to develop better narrative and interpersonal storytelling first for it to matter.

Hell, most videogames dont even focus on sex in the least. Most games sidestep it. At most itll have one kiss near the end of the game or for a Bioware games, somewhere in the middle. Maybe the reason there arent gay main characters in games is because it doesnt need them. Might as well go for the default. Being straight is accepted by 100% of the population, being gay? Not exactly. The videogame industry still operates like a business bent on selling as much as their product to as many people as possible.

Even films and tv do gay characters wrong or stereotype them as sassy best friends. All big media is fucked up when it comes to it. EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo, MS, Capcom are not going to be the ones to make that first big important gay game. Like film, itll probably be something more independent.

 

Thinking hard about it, a game focused on being gay would suck ass. I cant imagine a single genre benefiting or changing in big drastic ways from having a gay character. Videogames are still action movies. Plot an sexuality doesnt matter. They need to move past that first.

[Johnny]

Strangelove, a large part of the point was that it's not about making a game about being gay, it's about making good games with characters that happen to be anything but straight, for diversity.

Also, I find the idea that this topic - any topic - can't be discussed on sites like Destructoid to be highly offensive. Why should we censor it?

 

@HH: I mostly agree with what you're saying. I feel that gaming should be pushed to be as good as it can be, in all areas, including writing. That it hasn't been done well in a mainstream title so far doesn't mean it can't be done well. That it might fail doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried!

 

I can't comment on the case of Drake specifically, not having played the games, but I feel making him gay after the entire videogames press demanded it would be... far from subtle.

[Strangelove]

Diversity? Yeah, once we get blacks, Hispanics and women as main protagonists, gay people will be next. Probably lesbians first.

[Johnny]

Yes, diversity would be good when it comes to race and gender as well (although there are female protagonists. Samus Aran, Lara Croft, etc.), but that doesn't make trying to reach diversity when it comes to sexuality a less noble goal.

[Strangelove]

And I'm not trying to censor anything, but websites thrive on fads. I'm glad Betty white finally got on snl, but no one really gave a shit about her being on snl. They just picked up a random thought and everyone else just ran with it to see if snl would do. Just cus.

That's not right. It cheapens it. If this thing ever comes to fruition, I hope the retards of the innernet had nothing to do with it.

[deanb]

As I said on twitter, as it currently stands I don't think it's something that needs to be added in games.

 

Having a gay NPC/protag adds very little to the game, either in mechanics or storyline. As I noted on twitter, and it seems Strangelove has the same line of thought, game writing sucks at the moment anyway. Trying to get them to add in non-stereotypical queer characters would be asking a lot. Especially if your aim is to improve acceptance of LGBT relations. You'd both make it worse and turn off LGBT community. The games industry is a massive commercial entertainment industry, it's not really in their interests. The only reason they'd add it is for bullet points on the box. Mention Shepard can be gay n poof free marketing as everyone brings that up. It also becomes "a thing". No one would make a point of saying their main character is straight would they? It's putting a spotlight on it being different.

 

It wouldn't improve the games either. Is Uncharted any worse off for Nathan not being gay, would it be any better if he was? Would it make a lick of difference to his shooting and climbing abilities? If Chell was a lesbian would it change Portal in anyway? Gordon the gay mute, Jack the wrench wielding adoptive gay dad. Would it change these games in anyway if sexual orientation of the characters was defined?

 

Yes there's gay rights to improve the world over, but video games are one of the last choices I'd go for when looking for a platform for change in that dept.

[MasterDex]

My opinion on this is pretty much the same as my opinion when it comes to the cries of sexism and exclusion in regards to the fairer sex and video games.

 

What do you expect?

 

Most games are targeted at straight young men because they arguably make up the greatest demographic. This may have changed but I haven't seen any survey that says otherwise. As such, the industry is going to cater to the masses. For the same reason that PC gamers get fucked over, women and the LGBT community also get the short end of the stick. This is the way it's going to be until enough people in either demographic are activley involved in making the design decisions.

 

And from the furour we see so frequently from these groups, I find it hard to see that future as anything more than what movies and TV already face - The Token ____. It should never be about representing. Fuck representation. That's just ticking boxes on a list. If your character is going to be gay, if you're going to make a game targeted towards women, if you're going to make your protagonist an Afghan terrorist, then do it for the right reasons.

 

We know women couldn't care less about barbie dress and shop or whatever fucking excuse for a female orientated game they come up with and I'd certainly like to think that most gay people would be as confused as everyone else if Naughty Dog made Nathan Drake gay - especially since he's been established as hethrosexual already. I'm all for everyone feeling more included in the industry and if I ever enter it properly, I'd like to help that cause but clamouring for representation is the wrong way to go about it.

Edited January 4, 2012 by MasterDex

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

IF it is possible to do it without feeling pandering or demeaning, and without making a big deal out of it, then sure, why not have a gay protagonist/significant NPC? I don't expect characters in fiction to line up with my every characteristic and belief; why should I expect it in a game? I immerse myself in fictitious worlds to see reality from another person's point of view, to challenge what I know about the place I live in and what I believe. Tackling homosexuality isn't outside the realm of that--but considering how it's often handled on television and film, I think it'll be a while before we see it done well in gaming. Plus, even storytellers like BioWare still can't do romance--gay or straight--without making me facepalm.

[deanb]

So I seem to be vexing Johnny a bit. To get folks to speed I've postulated that Gordon Freeman is in fact gay. The point I'm trying to put forward is that 1. It doesn't hugely matter what orientation the character is. 2. Gordon Freeman is the best damn gay character ever written.

It's never a huge part of his character; his beating up Combine, his saving the world, his MIT graduation, that he's gay. Which is how it should be.

 

Problem is that he doesn't "count", because he's undefined in that area. Which 99% of VG characters are undefined. It seems the only way a gay character would count is if it's straight up declared: This person is gay. Which unfortunately leads on to stereotypes. Because apparently gamers won't accept Gordons homosexuality because he's wearing an industrial containment suit and shooting a shotgun instead of wearing biker leathers and blaring out Lady Gaga. People don't want LGBT characters, they want obviously LGBT characters.

 

 

Plus, even storytellers like BioWare still can't do romance--gay or straight--without making me facepalm.

Why would you say something like that?

 

Look you've made Zevran all

 

 

edit: Forgot to add this the first time around:

 

The main point you'd want to target if you're wanting to make folks accept gays would be the publishers, ratings boards and online community. When developers have "Fight Against Grenade Spam" and it takes it being released, then the backlash to come before they go "you know maybe not a good idea" then there's a fundamental flaw in the industry. (of course it's from a company that uses controversy as a bow to expertly play the violin that is the games press)

Sterlings last point for example is that he'd want Drake to be outed as gay just to get the reaction from the homophobic parts of the gaming community.

[Johnny]

Yes, it's "vexing" when you completely misrepresent my opinion on something. I'm not saying "oh it doesn't count," I'm saying that Gordon Freeman is not so much a character as he is a blank slate. Most things about him is left unsaid because the player is supposed to feel like they ARE Gordon Freeman when they are playing. You can't do that if he has established character traits. Gordon is not straight, gay, bi or asexual. He's a blank slate.

 

I backed out of that discussion on twitter because I didn't want to lose my temper. I kind of resent that you're bringing up our discussion after I backed off. You do not seem to understand what my point of view is, which I guess is fine. What is less fine with me is when you keep misrepresenting my point of view despite me trying to correct you.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

[i am adding in this disclaimer: this post is a rambling mess, because on this issue, I am a rambling mess]

 

Making the main (or any) character gay would not make them shoot or climb or throw better, no. but that is the point. Being gay doesn't make you better or worse at anything than being straight. If a character was shown to be entirely 'normal and capable' (dare I say it, straight acting) and he turned out to be gay it may make a few of the on the fence bigots out there thing "hey, not all gay people are limp-wristed nancies".

 

It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) shoved down people's throats to be effective either. People say sexuality doesn't come in to most games so why even put gay characters in? I can assure you the main characters (hetero)sexuallity is nearly always referenced and it doesn't just have to be terrible mannequin sex either but it is in nearly every game and it is always hetero and becuase of the world we live in it doesn't even register for most people, Take the GoW2 trailer:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v1EIaWtGwto#t=18s

 

Right in the trailer you have the main character looking at a picture of his wife so you know before you even play the game that the main character is straight. Most people in the comments sections of articles about sexuality in games prove that a majority of heterosexuals don't notice the constant affirmations of heterosexuality in games. And fair enough there is no reason they should but you cannot argue they are not there and so any gay references should equally not be there.

 

Not referencing sexuality at all so a character could be gay is not the same thing either, because as I've already stated it will just be assumed the character is straight, but something as simple as the photo in the trailer would work and you'd have to be a hardened bigot to get your knickers in a twist over that. Problem is that a lot of gamers are hardened bigots. Saying game writers are to poor to be able to tackle it isn't great either - if we can have poor straight characters why do the gay ones to be brilliant and believable? We can't realistically wit until game-writers are any good at it - they just need to write equally badly for a diverse cast.

 

As to why the world needs gay characters at all, when you are gay and struggling to come to terms with your life being different to everyone else's and you feel alone it does help to have a gay visiblity wherever and in as many different places as you can find it so you know there are other people out there like you and that gay people aren't just the things that are shouted at you in the playground at school. It is perfectly valid to think 'it's only a video game why does it need to try and solve the world's social problems?' and you'd be right. It doesn't, but why the hell shouldn't it?

[deanb]

I'm not really misrepresenting you, you did actually say he "doesn't count". I'd want to know what you were correcting me on though, unless you repeatedly dodging the question of "how is he not gay" by stating he's a blank slate is what you're meaning. You're perfectly free to not answer the question, but to declare him a non-sexual (not even asexual) undefined slate is dodging the question however you attempt to frame it. All it did was reinforce the point that for the majority of gamers to accept or "count" a gay character as gay it would have to be obviously pointed out and defined.

 

Anyway this wasn't posted to bring it up again with you, I just felt it worth bringing up with the rest of the forum. Just because you were the one responding to me on Twitter doesn't give exclusive discussion rights

 

 

edit:

@TFG: The problem in the writing section is that with a straight (or undefined) characters when it's bad writing then it's bad writing. If you fuck up with a gay character you end up doing more harm than good, reinforcing stereotypes, making it all a bit of a joke. There's already being recent issues with Other M so it's not just with LGBT writing. I'd say the problem is (apart from the games industry at large not giving two shits about writing anyway, most of the time being an afterthought) most writers are male. I only know of two female writers in the games industry off the top of my head (who also do some of the best female characters too..) and that'd be Amy Hennig of Uncharted fame, and Rhianna Pratchett of Mirrors Edge. (I did some googling, and while I can't find who did Gears 1 or 2, Gears 3 was written by a lass)

 

I'd say Video games aren't useful platforms for social change because they're games. Game mechanics kind of get in the way. Chronixal made a joke with regards to my "Gay Gordon" thing saying how it's not very progressive that he does what he's told n doesn't open his mouth. It was a joke, but it was a good point none the less.

[MasterDex]

Not referencing sexuality at all so a character could be gay is not the same thing either, because as I've already stated it will just be assumed the character is straight, but something as simple as the photo in the trailer would work and you'd have to be a hardened bigot to get your knickers in a twist over that. Problem is that a lot of gamers are hardened bigots. Saying game writers are to poor to be able to tackle it isn't great either - if we can have poor straight characters why do the gay ones to be brilliant and believable? We can't realistically wit until game-writers are any good at it - they just need to write equally badly for a diverse cast.

 

As to why the world needs gay characters at all, when you are gay and struggling to come to terms with your life being different to everyone else's and you feel alone it does help to have a gay visiblity wherever and in as many different places as you can find it so you know there are other people out there like you and that gay people aren't just the things that are shouted at you in the playground at school. It is perfectly valid to think 'it's only a video game why does it need to try and solve the world's social problems?' and you'd be right. It doesn't, but why the hell shouldn't it?

 

 

You make a good point about the GoW trailer, it's essentially the same point as mentioned in one of the articles about Rowling going - "Oh yeah! Dumbledore is gay." when all was said and done. Ultimately though it goes back to representation for representation's sake. If all you're going to get from a token representation is a token stereotype then what's the point? All it's doing is reinforcing what are likely going to be negative stereotypes and you're doing so to a demographic that consists in large part of a very impressionable age group. So not only do you give credance to the carrying on of the stereotypes among the older age groups but you're encouraging the younger age groups to associate with that stereotype. I'd like more Irish characters represented in gaming - but not if the cost means that what I get are drunks, terrorists and Darby 'O Gill fiddlededopes. And that's the problem with crying for representation rather than allowing for a more natural evolution within the industry. If instead of trying to force representation, you let the industry grow into encompassing and representing different groups/cultures/sexes/sexualities/etc, you're going to end up with a much better representation - one not marred by stereotypes written by the wrong people.

Edited January 4, 2012 by MasterDex

[TheFlyingGerbil]

Well, I just wrote out something that bordered on the coherent, but that just vanished into the ether. My points were:

 

You don't need better writers: If in that trailer Marus Fenix had looked down at a photo of himself with his arm around a guy, that would not need better/more characterisation, and it would not have involved any sort of stereotyping. The entire rest of the games writing could have remained unchanged. The problem here is that people seem to think that gay characters need to be written differently in the first place. They don't. 99.9% of what I say would be the same whether I was gay or straight. All you need to do differently is change a gender pronoun every now and again.

 

I think that progress should be made in the opposite way that most people seem to think. Push for representation first and then make it better. How can it improve if there is nothing there now to improve upon? Get the bad gay characters that make the young gay people to want to get into the industry to improve them. Now they just think "it's not for me" To quote Gandhi:

 

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

 

At the moment we are mostly at the ignore stage, but when there is a sighting there is plenty of laugh and fight to push the status quo back to the start. We need to stand our ground and endure at points 2 and 3 if we are ever to forge ahead to winning.

 

And I hope I don't need to point out (at least on this forum, though I'm sure I would elsewhere) that the win state is not a world full of muscle march or even a gay character in every game. It's just to have the world that we escape to to include a few of the more bits of the world we're escaping from.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Too tired to get in-depth but I think that any homosexual character in a game should be like a homosexual in real life... not at all obvious in most circumstances. In fact, I feel sad when gay men and women meet the stereotypes society puts on them, and I want that to stop as well.

[Strangelove]

If I saw Marcus Fenix hugging a man on a photo, I would assume it was his best friend or father. Id have to be told explicitly that hes gay.

 

And then the whole point of it would be useless and only controversy would ensue. As easy as it is to turn someone gay in a game, its just as easy to make them straight, plus you know....not pissing off people AND catering to most of the demographic for that medium. There are pluses to having a straight character instead of a gay one. Its just smart for business.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

Maybe by having more gay representation in the media we wouldn't live in a society were having a gay person in a game would piss people off and tank it's sales?

[MasterDex]

@TFG: I get where you're coming from and I agree that gay characters don't need to be written differently than straight characters but I think it's one thing to hope and strive for better representation (or representation at all) and another to try to push that representation upon the industry. I can't say I know GoW too well. I played a good amount of the first game and a small bit of the second but that's as far as my experience really goes. I don't really know Marcus beyond angry hulk out to save the world but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was written by a straight man. Your point, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding it, is that no matter what, there needs to be more gay characters. I believe that although you don't need to write gay or straight characters any differently, you're still forcing your will upon the writers if you demand there be gay or lesbian or transgendered characters included.

 

Let's say I'm writing a novel and in my novel there happens to be no gay characters, not out of any hate or purposeful injustice on my part but simply because it never came up. Let's then say that after the novel released, I got letters from fans from the LGBT community who were disappointed that I didn't include any LGBT characters. Let's say one of those fans asked why I didn't just make one of the main characters gay. "Why not? What harm could it do, they're just gay, you wouldn't have to write them any differently." So in the sequel, I do exactly that, I mention their sexuality through some method somewhere in the book. Then I get more letters. This time, I've got angry letters from haters which I couldn't care less about if it wasn't costing me sales but I've also got more disappointed letters from the LGBT community lamenting that I just made a token representation and that I should have written them properly and I'm going to lose even more sales now from that group as well. But before it would have been fine because sexuality never came into it and if it did, it likely coincided with my own simply because that's what I know. And my bigot fans would have been happy. And some of my LGBT fans would have accepted it moreso than a bad representation. "He's straight, what do you expect?"

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time” - Lydgate

 

I'd rather the industry grow into representing different groups, etc than trying to force that representation because I'd hate to feel ashamed of a game I really enjoyed simply because the developers or publishers felt the need to shoehorn in something and did it poorly just so a group could feel included.

[Strangelove]

I just feel that gay representation needs to seep into other mediums first before gaming. Gaming and it's fans are...........ummm.....shit. I dunno. I just know that gay stuff in games can lead to a lot of laughter over how bad it's done.

And it has nothing to do with sexuality, but the missteps videogames make are usually hilarious, moreso than others. Bad writing, awful voiceacting, bad animation, glitches, etc. It all becomes stuff of legends. Im confident that videogames would fuck up gays in the same way that Jason! and master of unlocking hot coffee.

Which just reminds me how behind most games are when compared to films. But thats something else entirely.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Strangelove

[deanb]

Yeah there's more harm to be done through cramming something in because being politically correct demands it, than just making the character straight or just leaving it unsaid altogether.

 

Games just suck in general for most stories, and I'd rather they get the simple stuff down to pat first before wading into the deep pool held sacred by the LGBT community. 15 years after Barret people were still apprehensive about Sazh in FFXIII. 15 years and people still didn't feel the games industry could do blacks well. WTF. At least with the current state of bad writing it's because you could drive the USS Enterprise through the plot holes and not (as often) because of some retarded stereotype bullshit.

[excel_excel]

For me gaming isn't there yet where it can cover this kind of thing seriously, or even on a just having a character be gay and have it been treated as normal by the gaming world. We haven't even approached the proper way to show war in games, and we've had dozens upon dozens of those released and games that try to approach and do different things in that context like Six Days in Fallujah get cancelled. We aren't there yet. We should be. But we aren't.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

@MasterDex: Yes, there do need to be more gay characters in video games, but:

 

me: And I hope I don't need to point out (at least on this forum, though I'm sure I would elsewhere) that the win state is not a world full of muscle march or even a gay character in every game. It's just to have the world that we escape to to include a few of the more bits of the world we're escaping from.

 

I don't want gay smooshed into every game. Even in most games. But that the ratio of gay characters to straight characters is way off whack to the real world. I don't want game designers to feel compelled to put gay characters in. What I (optimistically/naively) want is for the game designers to want to put gay characters in. If they want to create the best game they can they should be thinking about things like this.

 

With regard to your novel. It really depends on what you were writing, but If you were writing a novel with a large cast and you were trying to write a convincing portrayal of modern life then you should be thinking about putting a diverse cast of characters in yourself from the outset. It's just lazy to not think about anything outside your own sphere of experience and would make for a very poor novel. You may as well just set up a twitter account. With regards to the complaints you would receive I guess that depends on whether you are driven by artist intent or money. Obviously video game companies are driven by money but I would like to think that a bit of social responsibility could be thrown in to the mix, in the same way environment and local communities are looked after in megacorps corporate responsibility initiatives that cost them money, why can't publishers do a bit of the same instead of spending extra money they could take a risk that including a diverse cast may impact sales. They don't have to do it with AAA titles, but maybe in download games or DLC

 

These people are coming up with entire new world with poilitical systems so complicated they make ours look like a rock paper scissors decision making process, and yet it cannot occur to them that everything that exists in this massive world they have created is not straight and male, or big breasted and slutty.

 

I guess the main difference is if you are discussing reality or what you would like to be true. I'd like game designers to want to put gay characters in to make their games better and to make the world better. I know they put whatever the hell they think sells in there.

[MasterDex]

@MasterDex: Yes, there do need to be more gay characters in video games, but:

 

me: And I hope I don't need to point out (at least on this forum, though I'm sure I would elsewhere) that the win state is not a world full of muscle march or even a gay character in every game. It's just to have the world that we escape to to include a few of the more bits of the world we're escaping from.

 

I don't want gay smooshed into every game. Even in most games. But that the ratio of gay characters to straight characters is way off whack to the real world. I don't want game designers to feel compelled to put gay characters in. What I (optimistically/naively) want is for the game designers to want to put gay characters in. If they want to create the best game they can they should be thinking about things like this.

 

With regard to your novel. It really depends on what you were writing, but If you were writing a novel with a large cast and you were trying to write a convincing portrayal of modern life then you should be thinking about putting a diverse cast of characters in yourself from the outset. It's just lazy to not think about anything outside your own sphere of experience and would make for a very poor novel. You may as well just set up a twitter account. With regards to the complaints you would receive I guess that depends on whether you are driven by artist intent or money. Obviously video game companies are driven by money but I would like to think that a bit of social responsibility could be thrown in to the mix, in the same way environment and local communities are looked after in megacorps corporate responsibility initiatives that cost them money, why can't publishers do a bit of the same instead of spending extra money they could take a risk that including a diverse cast may impact sales. They don't have to do it with AAA titles, but maybe in download games or DLC

 

These people are coming up with entire new world with poilitical systems so complicated they make ours look like a rock paper scissors decision making process, and yet it cannot occur to them that everything that exists in this massive world they have created is not straight and male, or big breasted and slutty.

 

I guess the main difference is if you are discussing reality or what you would like to be true. I'd like game designers to want to put gay characters in to make their games better and to make the world better. I know they put whatever the hell they think sells in there.

 

The point with the novel was that it wouldn't have been out of laziness or a poor grasp on reality but out of inconsequentiality. If, as you say and I agree, you don't have to write a gay person any differently than a straight person and if their sexuality is of no concern to the tale been told then why is the statement of their sexuality of any great importance? Why should I have to say "Oh yeah, this guy is gay." to fill a quota when before that character was simply an asexual character? If I'm writing a sex scene in this novel for example, why would I write a gay scene just for the sake of being able to say "But look! It's not just a token representation!" when it's bound to be clumsy or even offensive to the people I'm trying to placate?

 

I think my reply to Excel above covers the rest of my opinion on the matter and related matters) so I won't repeat it just for the sake of it. I will finish however by saying that I don't think it has anything to do with what I'd like to be true but instead is an endemic problem that won't be solved by forcing the wrong people to try and fix it. There are plenty of LGBT people that are much more than mildly interested in gaming that continue to be interested in gaming despite the lack of representation - just as there are women who are - Until enough of them have the motivation to enter the industry and change it from within, you're not going to be represented as much as you'd like or how you'd like whether you like it or not.

 

Edit: Damnit! I cut the reply to Excel to insert your quote then forgot I did and copied something else to the clipboard! Feck it! That was quite the bit as well! I'll try redo it in a bit so if this doesn't read exactly sensibly right now, check back again in a little while.

 

Edit 2.

For me gaming isn't there yet where it can cover this kind of thing seriously, or even on a just having a character be gay and have it been treated as normal by the gaming world. We haven't even approached the proper way to show war in games, and we've had dozens upon dozens of those released and games that try to approach and do different things in that context like Six Days in Fallujah get cancelled. We aren't there yet. We should be. But we aren't.

 

We aren't there yet because too many developers and publishers are trying to cater to A, B, C, D, all the way down to Z. You'll have heard this from me before, Excel but take Desperate Housewives. I have no interest in watching it and the shows creators have no interest in my interests. I'm fine with that and more importantly, so are they. The industry needs to be ok with excluding B,C and D so A can have a thoroughly enjoyable experience but also needs to be ok with excluding A, D and C so B can have a great experience and so on - like the TV, movie and book industries are ok with. The problem is that right now only A is being represented because A makes up the bulk of both the audience and the industry. For gaming to move on from that, B, C, D, etc need to get involved to make those changes. As it stands B, C, D, etc are essentially shouting "Hey! Stop making games for you and start making games for me!" and my response to that would be "Do it yourself".

 

- I wish I didn't make that fuck-up. The previous version was much more eloquent....I think I redid the bulk of what I had though.

Edited January 4, 2012 by MasterDex

[deanb]

Yeah I feel that "8% of folks are gay therefore 8% of NPCs should be gay" would be lousy reason to add stuff in. If you were to make a game population statistically, it'd actually end up pretty weird since IRL people tend to bunch up, not be evenly distributed. (and then it comes down to which nation do you base it off? e.g in US 13% of pop is black, in UK it's ~2%.)