Mal Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I wonder how much shit will surface when they look at other car companies. Improvements in air quality in the last few decades (say 1980's till now) could allow for hiding behind the improvements and data "noise"... or not. Maybe we can get a general overview of the problem from what kind of air pollution we are getting and from what is expected. Perhaps we have been attributing some of the pollution to other sources (e.g., factories, other causes and processes like build up) when it was actually motor vehicles. Best case scenario is that it was only VW who did this... hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Moved the VW thing here, because apparently this scandal is now sweeping Europe as well. They think the software was designed with the US in mind though, because we have stricter emissions rules (a fact I was astonished to learn). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbassman39 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I'm sure someone here had mentioned their hatred of adding "gate" at the end of everything, but I was reading about VW's Dieselgate. Seems that other German based companies are now being investigated for possibility of doing the same. BMW & Mercedes both claim they aren't as crooked as VW. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/german-automakers-us-diesel-emissions/ I am curious what this means not just for the future of VW (they'll be fine as the largest car manufacturer in the world for 2 years, plus the sales of Audi/Lamborgini won't be slowing down), but rather the future of clean diesel coming to the US. If you haven't had an opportunity to actually sit in a VW diesel, its a pleasant drive with little to no noise from the engine, no smell and no turbo lag when driving. America has limited experience with diesel cars, most of our experience around diesel is big trucks and the late 80s Mercedes brought out a great car but it was loud and smelt bad. Europe has been using diesel for a long time now, its the standard, and cars there don't seem much different than the petrol option aside from being more efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Well supposedly the reason for the software was because they weren't able to meet the US's emissions standards while still maintaining the fuel economy and performance that makes the diesel engines attractive in the first place. If that's true then they may not be able to really bring diesel cars to the US in large numbers like Europe has. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 About my previous post and musing about detecting the increased diesel emissions from duped tests. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34347873 I only skimmed the article but maybe we can see the increases from air quality tests, especially in Europe where diesel vehicles are more popular. Stay tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I'm somewhat sympathetic to VW. What they've done is find a loophole and driven through it, satisfying regulators while giving customers the best driving experience. I'm willing to bet that this at least started life as a clever workaround not an attempt to defraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 There are regulations that cars' emissions can't exceed certain levels, and they designed their cars to exceed those levels except when they detect they're being tested. That's not finding a loophole, that's just concealing the fact that you're violating the regulations. A loophole would be if they had discovered the regulations were written in such a way that they only required passing the tests instead actually having lower emissions all the time, but that's not what happened. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Are you being sarcastic, TN? Making a separate mode for emissions tests that purposefully does not reflect real-life performance and hiding the existence of that mode is pretty much textbook defrauding the government. In fact, it's almost certainly indictable under the RICO act, the U.S. anti-organized crime statute. Hell, the customers who bought the TDI engines at issue probably have a class action civil RICO cause of action against VW and any of its employees involved in the fraud. I mean, yes, VW wanted to sell its cars with too-good-to-be-true performance from a diesel engine, so it cheated and lied about it and sold cars that belch poisonous nitrous oxide. The other thing is that it's crazy to be sympathetic to a corporation, which by definition is amoral to the point of psychopathy. VW gives no shits about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 [if] the regulations were written in such a way that they only required passing the tests instead actually having lower emissions all the time. That's what I think they thought they were doing. @GOH: By somewhat I mean slightly, I'm not shedding a tear for them or lying awake thinking about them. All I'm saying is that I can see how this decision got made, and I can understand why they did it. I'd like to believe that this was done by some clever guy who worked out a way to get through the test, and have a fuel efficient car rather than someone setting out to defraud a bunch of people and kill the planet. My only real issue with it is that it was a hidden mode. Most fancy pants cars these days have "sports" and "economy" modes. If V-Dub had been a bit more up-front this wouldn't even be an issue. I think they deserve to get fined because they were deceptive, I don't have shares in VW so I don't really care what happens to them in the long run (though it does suck for innocent VW employees whose shares have tanked). I see them in the same light as tax avoiders. They clearly aren't complying with the spirit of the regulations. I don't know enough about the letter of the regs to say if they comply with them, but I'm happy to take GOH and Ethan's word on it that they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 What they could do to get around this is buy out Fiat, and then they'd have nearly everyone's money and the fine wouldn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 My only real issue with it is that it was a hidden mode. Most fancy pants cars these days have "sports" and "economy" modes. If V-Dub had been a bit more up-front this wouldn't even be an issue. The reason it wouldn't be an issue in that instance is because then if either mode didn't pass muster then the car wouldn't have been able to be sold here at all, though I agree that there wouldn't have been the deception issue in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Like I said, no idea what the regs say regarding modes or testing parameters/methodologies or what have you, so I bow to your knowledge there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Here are the regulations if you want to dig through them: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3cc4396aa4fdae0eb7ba109199638504&mc=true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title40/40cfr86_main_02.tpl I only gave them a cursory inspection, but I did see that the company is required to certify that the testing was designed with good engineering practices to ensure that the vehicle will comply with applicable air quality standards for the duration of its useful life. 86.001-23(b)(2) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 What's this about the EU knowing about the emissions cheating systems for 5 years? I only saw it on a comedy show so they didn't go into any details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/saudi-arabia-insists-un-keeps-lgbt-rights-out-of-its-development-goals-a6671526.html What clusterfuck ended up with Saudi Arabia as head of the UN Human Rights council (slightly rhetorical since I know we backed them for joining) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/6/9460465/european-court-facebook-safe-harbor-ruling-data-transfer EU rules US data privacy laws ineffective. Might make things go a bit funny for stuff like Facebook and the like in future. The NSA really threw a spanner in the works for American companies trying to work abroad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Yup. Thanks Prism. Won't actually have a material impact on services. Just a lot of stressed out lawyers and paperwork. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pojodin Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Is this how the Canadian election ended? o_O 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/germany-refuses-accept-binjamin-netanyahu-claim-adolf-hitler-holocaust So it's 2015, and cos of Israels stupid prime minister trying to blame Palestine for the Holocaust Germany is having to reiterate and remind folks that they're responsible for the holocaust. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Israel is way more scary to me than Iran is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 National Guilt is the gift that keeps on giving. Kudos to Germany for telling Net to get back in his box. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 What gets me is how shit the timing is. He says this, then flies off to Berlin the day after. And yeah playing the "Ah but the holocaust" card too much kinda wears down it's effectiveness. Israel was maybe not the Allies best post-WWII solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Yeah, but overall WWII was handled so much better than WWI that I'm willing to forgive them that mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 What gets me is how shit the timing is. He says this, then flies off to Berlin the day after. And yeah playing the "Ah but the holocaust" card too much kinda wears down it's effectiveness. Israel was maybe not the Allies best post-WWII solution. It was deliberate. Trying to cosy up with Germany in the mistaken belief that they don't want to own the mistakes of their forebears coupled with a desire to stir up the anti-muslim far right. Pointless really as Islamophobes don't need any help and Germany as a nation is grown up and doesn't need to sweep its past under a thread bare rug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Pretty much everything I've heard is that Germany owns up to their Nazi past so hard. Also isn't Germany one of the less islamaphobe states too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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