Dishonored

[TheMightyEthan]

I totally agree that the clam plant things could go.

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

I'm on PC, but I've been playing with a 360 controller.

 

Finished first playthrough, currently aiming for a "no-kill" playthrough.

[Cyber Rat]

I can't argue against making the game more complex and the AI smarter. But to compare it to Metal Gear Solid is a little unfair. This game wasn't built entirely with stealth at the forefront, it was built with "Do it your way" in mind and I appreciate that. And either ways MGS brings stealth to a realistic setting. Plenty of stealth-based titles have weird AI or mechanics, like Splinter Cell [pre-jason bourne Sam Fisher] having enemies instantly know you're there because someone turned on the lights in a room or something similar. In those titles, and in Hitman from what I recall, people never wondered where their missing comrade was so they still had their exploits You basically had to make sure you hid the body.

 

Having said that, the developers have a lot to learn but for this to be their first title in the [possible] game series it is astonishing they were able to bring forth such fond memories of Thief and Deus Ex and System Shock. This is their ACI, and hopefully if they ever make a game with the same title, they'll improve it as much as ACII was improved.

 

I don't see why it's unfair to compare it to MGS? Yea, Dishonored tried to please people who wanted both stealth and action, but that doesn't change the fact that it's very simplistic in both. It's still a pleasurable experience, I'm just saying I see why people would be disappointed in the stealth aspect of it. It hasn't budged much from what we've had in previous, similar games.

[SomTervo]

I don't really get all the hate on the stealth. I goddamn love it. An important aspect of the mechanic to bear in mind is that it's fast stealth- something which the devs wanted to try out. Not the ponderous slow creeping of Thief, but quick movement and evasion stealth, you can sprint around in daylight but still be stealthy. Which utterly works for me.

 

I had a moment once where a dude on a catwalk was turning around, about to see me sitting on a vent, and I made a split second call to stop time, drop from the vent I was on, and blink mid air straight under the guy so he wouldn't see me. I came out of bent time juuuust as the guy turned fully to face where i had been, and he got one awareness bar from seeing me in his peripheral vision, stared at where I had been, and was confused. If I hadn't paused time I would have been capped. It was awesome.

 

And the crawling mechanic is fantastic. For years games have been trying to get crawling in fps/ stealth games right- MGS had the awful locked to crawl mode, Splinter Cell had the context sensitive vent entry, Thief/ DEx avoided it altogether and just had large vents or openings- but in Dishonored, the fact that when crouched you automatically slide down into any crawl-height space and don't need to press any extra buttons and don't lose speed or visibility... It's just ingenious. And has saved my neck many times.

 

The AI doesn't seem too bad at all. Maybe a tiny bit inconsistent in terms of how far they can see etc., but I'd never call it poor. The game flat out tells you that darkness just gives you a stealth bonus at distance. The AI functions perfectly for what it needs to do, I think it's believable as guards. More so than in many games at least.

 

The MGS games aren't a fair comparison because they are designed under the Japanese 'rules-first' mantra, so the guards are actually really incapable and unrealistic- but the rules they're designed to follow are well thought out and detailed. A game like Dishonored is more about dynamic and flexible situations, the guards are given behaviours and just thrown into situations. The first time I got spotted in the game happened because, although I memorised a guards patrol, he saw a nearby rat and ran over to crush it just as I crept out. I wasn't even irritated at being spotted. It was an emergent moment. It's a game based around creating emergence- MGS is about operating within strict rules. The rat thing would never be designed into e MGS guard's rule set.

 

P.s. also I'm not dead. Sorry for not being round much. Lack of time in my final year. Shit is NIGHTMARE.

 

P.p.s. I also cannot possibly imagine how people are playing it and thinking its short. You'd have to be playing it wrong if you're disappointed with the game's length. I spent about three hours on the first mission alone, getting used to the mechanics, experimenting with the powers (found some amazing stuff), doing the side quests, exploring every nook and cranny... There's so much to do, and so many different ways to do it. I'm at about 7 hours and I'm only just beginning the third mission. And already considering playing through with one life or different powers or as an action game.

Edited October 14, 2012 by kenshi_ryden

[Saturnine Tenshi]

And the crawling mechanic is fantastic. For years games have been trying to get crawling in fps/ stealth games right- MGS had the awful locked to crawl mode' date=' Splinter Cell had the context sensitive vent entry, Thief/ DEx avoided it altogether and just had large vents or openings- but in Dishonored, the fact that when crouched you automatically slide down into any crawl-height space and don't need to press any extra buttons and don't lose speed or visibility... It's just ingenious. And has saved my neck many times.[/quote']

 

 

I had this happen to me in the brothel. Two guys were approaching as I exited the steam room and had found the many corpses I left in my wake. I was just nearing the entrance to the tunnel and due to the perspective I couldn't really blink anywhere but back. I panicked and just shoved the analog stick to the right and there happened to be a table there which I ducked under.

 

[TheMightyEthan]

I was the top player on Raptr for a little while right after I finished, but now I've been bumped down to Dedicated.

 

All this discussion has convinced me to start another run. I'm going to do a high-chaos one this time, and actually

kill all the baddies instead of doing the non-lethal options on them.

 

 

I didn't quite do no-kills last time, but I'm pretty sure I kept my kill count in single-digits.

 

*Edit* - I just checked an not counting the prison level I killed fewer than 5 people. Got the cheevo for it.

Edited October 14, 2012 by TheMightyEthan

[Cyber Rat]

Since people think I hate everything I criticize (I never said I hated the stealth, just that it was quite simple, but oh well), here is SOME PRAISE:

 

 

After you've killed/knocked out Daud, when you go the part of Dunwall where they dump the corpses, I stared there for quite a while. Then I climbed up to a small apartment and had a talk with a woman who had escaped her family because she got sick, despite them wanting her back. It's very well orchestrated, with her even approaching the window, asking you ironically "do you even know where you are?" and opening the window, giving you a clear view of the corpses. If that wasn't enough of a downer, I climbed down and saw the one guy pulling out his friend from the pile of corpses. The guy that was pulled out was dying and kept saying stuff like "I'll make it good next time, won't I? I'll do it" while his friend just held him there and then went on a sad bit of monologue as his friend drew his last breath.

 

Moments like these make the narrative of Dishonored really amazing.

 

Edited October 14, 2012 by Cyber Rat

[SomTervo]

Wasn't just yourself Cyber. What you said was fair (though essentially stealth is never any more complicated than 'avoid being seen and run away if you are', so I'd argue that 'simple' is an adjective which could never be used to negatively describe stealth mechanics). Its lots of others who have been saying the stealth isn't great. I just don't see it. It does what it does excellently.

 

Aaaand that spoiler tag is an actual justified spoiler tag.

[Maritan]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic with that last comment about the halo/cod generation so I won't retort until I make sure if you were serious or not.

That wasn't sarcasm. Also, I totally agree with everything Cyber has written about stealth mechanics.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Maritan

[Thorgi Duke of Frisbee]

All due respect, Maritan, but when I hear someone blame Call of Duty's players for something they don't like about a new game, I tend to tune that person's argument out. It's an elitist, snobbish attitude and I hate that the gaming community has been divided that way lately. It feels like shifting the blame to some sort of unidentifiable mass for causing games to be made that you don't like.

 

EDIT: I realize it isn't nice to tune someone's argument out, I just hate what the term usually alludes to and it makes me more focused on being annoyed by the generalization than the actual argument or opinion.

[SomTervo]

Well said Duke. Also, economising and purifying game mechanics, giving them more clarity and parsimony, isn't 'CoDifying' them (though that does make a nice pun with the word codify).

 

You really have to define what you meant by 'being made for that generation'. Which is an arbitrary point anyway; surely you're part of that generation too if you're playing games right now? Dishonored is a game at has little to no parallel with halo/ cod- unless you haven't played those games properly and you're making up the parallel.

[Maritan]

All due respect, Maritan, but when I hear someone blame Call of Duty's players for something they don't like about a new game, I tend to tune that person's argument out.

You seem to not understand my point of view. I am fine with that.

 

You really have to define what you meant by 'being made for that generation'. Which is an arbitrary point anyway; surely you're part of that generation too if you're playing games right now?

Wha...?

*sigh*

That is why I mostly stay the fuck away from such topics on "traditional" internet forums. After seeing such remarks I am pretty confident in futility of this discussion.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Maritan

[Hot Heart]

Saying 'too easy, AI is dumb, made for Halo/CoD generation', while sparking a discussion, doesn't really allow people to gauge what you mean. Present your case, make an argument, engage people!

[Hot Heart]

[Waldorf and Statler]

Sorry Maritan but everybody here is right. You made a statement that I first thought was REALLY ignorant or sarcasm since you presented no evidence whatsoever and that word is usually thrown around by idiots who claim [blank] game is not as hard, therefore it has been made for the COD players. Tell us what you meant, but don't be surprised and [apparently] insulted that we're taking you what you said as simply generalizing and simplistic.

[Waldorf and Statler]

Just beat the game. While the series needs improvements before it can be considered one of the greats, it definitely has the right materials. They'll learn from complaints and make a better game. The story while not the best was satisfying enough. Emily was defis my favorite character.

[CorgiShinobi]

I really wish I had something capable of playing Dishonored because I think, under all this "stealth," Dishonored is actually an alternate Bioshock game (and you know how I love me Bioshock).

 

Edited October 16, 2012 by Atomsk88

[Mr. GOH!]

Just got Dishonored and have played for a couple hours. Feels like Bioshock to me, and I'm trying not to kill anyone (though I either stabbed someone in the very first level by accident, or it counts the guy I knocked out and then threw in the water as a kill).

 

The environment textures are godawful up close, and the stealth so far is basic Deus Ex-esque stuff. However, the game has a lot of character, and I enjoy exploring the weird worldbuilding. I'm not sure it's a truly innovative game, just an interesting remix of Deus Ex and Bioshock with a neat-o weird fiction setting, like something out of Mieville (Melville?), or VanderMeer.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you throw people in the water it counts as a kill. Which I think makes sense.

[Mr. GOH!]

Whatever. It would also make sense if every dude you choke or sleep-dart has a % chance to die instead. /gripes

[TheMightyEthan]

Actually that would be kinda cool, although it would be really irritating on a no-kill attempt. I guess it would encourage avoidance rather than neutralization.

[Waldorf and Statler]

Well if the percentage was right after you choked them/sleep darted them then it'd be easy to see as an "unconscious" wouldn't be under their name. Quick reload and hope this time it doesn't happen.

[Mr. GOH!]

Save scumming is for the weak, Waldorf. I'm talking "oh, look at me! I'm a little bitty baby! If I don't gt what I want I cry! wah wah wah!" weak.

[Waldorf and Statler]

It's not if you're going for a no kill no detection playthrough. Ar-Goh fuck yourself.

[SomTervo]

Throwing bodies in water or dropping them any further than a few feet counts as a kill. Not sure about the % KO/kill thing. It's a good idea for a game where you're not rewarded for no-kills etc., if the gameplay wasn't stat-defined and didn't reward non-lethal playthroughs; but in a game like this, which does, it would be a mechanic that would just undermine the player in a way they have no control over.

 

Randomized mechanics have to be picked and chosen carefully. Dishonored has a couple of randomized things- some guard positions/ patrols get mixed up and targets' colours or clothing are selected from a random pool so it's not the same every time you play a mission. But stuff like damage or kill parameters are risky to randomize unless it's turn-based or a pure RPG.

 

I see the parallels with Bioshock, obviously, but tbh I'm preferring how Dishonored has handled things. It's got real economy of systems, which for me has made it more fun in terms of actual gameplay. Initially I was disappointed with the Powers screen. Only 5 active powers? Really? But when I actually started mixing them up I found I could do more things than I expected, and because there are fewer powers through a better control interface, I'm using them more and playing with them more, in the gameplay moment.

 

Wha...?

*sigh*

That is why I mostly stay the fuck away from such topics on "traditional" internet forums. After seeing such remarks I am pretty confident in futility of this discussion.

 

Aaaaand that is why nobody is going to give any regard to your opinion. Where we gave arguments and explanations for why we think you're wrong, or asked for you to elaborate on what you said- you provided no meaningful response or justification for you words.

 

Saying 'that is why I stay away from these topics', does not tell us why you stay away from these topics. You have made a general disagreement with what the others and myself said- you haven't communicated why you disagree. What, specifically do you mean by 'cod/halo generation'? If you answered that question fully the discussion would actually begin, open up, and we can argue.

 

Deciding to avoid topics does not help resolve the topic. You are failing at communication. You'll just carry around that frustration and unresolved baggage until the end of time. As Hottie said, engage with us and tell us why you feel this way! Discussion is the best thing and the point in these forums. If you want to avoid issues, why even come to a forum like this in the first place?

Edited October 16, 2012 by kenshi_ryden