Yantelope V2 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Well, again, we're arguing semantics here but it's not a charitable donation or gift. Maybe a gift is a better word but again, only if you have no expectation of any kind of return, even a videogame you might want to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 The fact is this: Kickstarter is an investment, and it's a poor one. It's that simple. Mhmmm. That's right. It's a poor investment. Now, that we've gotten that out of the way several times already, can we move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yantelope V2 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Well, it's technically only an investment if it happens to be one of the Kickstarters offering rewards. Otherwise it's a straight up donation. They all do. It's a requirement of the scheme. This probably should have been linked and read ages ago by all parties http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics And yeah, yante we get it. You think it's a nothingness that doesn't fit in any currently existing word. Everyone else thinks otherwise (and nobody has said it's a charitable donation). Let's move on. Nudge nudge. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 The lowest level doesn't have to have anything though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Why can't it be mostly a donation with also a small investment in that you get the game (and potentially some other goodies) when it's released? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 How about this. We call it's an Investination, or a donative and call it a day. And if a single semantic argument crops up again in this thread then boom. And instead people post interesting kickstarter projects, news on kickstarter stuff, links to other alternative sites(i.e any EU ones?), and the eventual article on how Tim Schafer has fled with the $4million to have his own doublefine adventure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Anyone excited about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 I've being hearing quite a bit about it. A sci-fi space-based rouguelike. I guess I can give it a peak. I kinda like this idea too: http://kickingitforward.org/ (But I'm a "share the wealth" kinda guy) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I want to answer Yante's question So back to my original questions that you people can't seem to answer. Why couldn't wasteland 2 be developed like many other indie games? Are there any good examples of (kickstarted games) to go off of? What makes a kickstarter game different from a traditional indie game other than you giving your money away to them? Wasteland 2 can't be developed like many other indie games because many other indie games don't get Obsidian and Chris Avellone to develop for them. They're not large, established studios like Double Fine that want to make a niche, quirky game with a relatively large budget. Just look at what the devs are asking for. For Double Fine Adventure, $400,000. For Leisure Suit Larry, $500,000. For Wasteland 2, $900,000. Do you believe that this is what it costs many other, un-Kickstarter'd indie games to produce, and that all the games being Kickstarter'd would've been made otherwise? The answer is a resounding no, because the only other place where a developer can get this much money for the creation and distribution of a game is through a publisher, and publishers have made it very clear they don't want these games. Hence, the Kickstarter. These projects are far, far larger than your average indie game that one person coded and published through Steam. The term "indie game" only means it's not backed by an established publisher, that's all. It makes no explicit mention of ambition, budget, or workforce, so looking at a game like Nimbus and saying "well THIS guy managed to fund his game, why can't Brian Fargo?" really is comparing apples to oranges. I think most of your skepticism comes from the fact that the devs will be using their Kickstarter'd products to make money, but that's exactly what backers want them to do. They want to make sure these games are financially viable. The jury's out on whether this type of thing will be a long-term source of unconventional, larger-budget indie games that can't get traditional publisher backing, but honestly this is something most definitely worth at least trying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Rat Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 I am quite happy over this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 I think these people need to wait a little bit longer or else we'll have the effect of "too much stuff to donate to" which means that the stuff coming later ends up not getting the donations. Especially with all of these classic game revivals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDex Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 RPS have an interview up with Chris Avellone talking about Wasteland 2 and Kickstarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Republique is going to be a Kickstarter project soon. It'll probably be the first one I donate to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgi Duke of Frisbee Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486250632/republique-by-camouflaj-logan PITCH IN PITCH IN PITCH IN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Too bad it's iOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 http://rachelmarone.com/banned-from-kickstarter-for-being-a-stalking-victim.html A weird policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) That seems to me more like one CS rep taking a retarded interpretation of their policy, rather than an actual company policy to ban spam targets. Could be wrong though. Edited April 16, 2012 by TheMightyEthan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starcommand/star-command-sci-fi-meets-gamedev-story-for-ios-an/posts/208395 Someone messed up on their numbers. tbh I expect this stuff happens a fair amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 It happens a lot with new developers generally. You can tell them till you are blue in the face that they need to make a detailed budget beforehand and they'll ignore you. Of the things that they would change should they do it again. I'd be inclined to do less t-shirts and posters and more in-game rewards. That will make a huge impact on how much money you have to develop the game. Dropping attorneys because you are "all getting along at the moment" and "are closer than ever" is silly. Even if you have a difference of opinion and decide to split amicably, what you think is generous could be totally different to what the other side thinks is generous. This stuff needs to be locked down, clearly, in language that leaves no room for misunderstanding and for that you need to sit down with a lawyer. Also, a lot of that $4k was to set up a company and stuff like that. It's a one-off payment that is pretty much essential if you want serious investment down the line. Also, a trip to PAX East could have been put off till next year if you are counting the pennies and have $50k of debt to pay off. It's stuff like this that makes me think that there will inevitably be a huge Video game Kickstarter failure. (Note that I am not a'whooping and a'hollering at the thought, it's just a prediction, not a hope.) It's also things like this that make "Big Evil Greedy Publishers" not such a bad thing. They can provide a lot of help with regard to music, legal support, creative services, marketing and so forth which are, as you can see, not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faiblesse Des Sens Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starcommand/star-command-sci-fi-meets-gamedev-story-for-ios-an/posts/208395 Yay for transparency! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyRan Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I agree with Thursday about PAX. Rather than lament the attorney expenses, I would've skipped PAX. I mean, PAX is awesome I'm sure, but if you're pinching pennies there are better ways of getting exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingGerbil Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 If I'd put money in to that I would not be very happy. It looks like they plucked a figure from the air and pretty much frittered away two thirds of the money as far as I'm concerned. It all looks super unprofessional. No wonder they didn't get money via more conventional means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Yeah, the more I think about it. $4k for :Attorneys, Startup fees and CPA" (assuming CPA is Certified Public Accountant) is pretty cheap, in the UK the starting rate for a trainee solicitor is ~£110 / hour, someone with a few years experience is double that and a top flight solicitor is as much as £400/hr (or more), that's not even taking into account all the fees for registering the companies and whatever else they lumped into "startup costs". I have no idea what sort of fees accountants charge, but I'll assume they aren't much less than solicitors. Basically, around 10% of the money has gone on making sure that they are running their business properly. Closer to 30% has been blown on sending swag to people. I know which I'd do without next time around. For those who like sources cited you can find Solicitor Guideline Hourly Rates here: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Guidance/guideline-hourly-rates-2010-v2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Well they did say if they had it to do over again they would have the physical rewards on higher donation tiers to help with that problem. As far as cost it depends on where you are. My office will set up an LLC for somebody for $750, but I'm sure if you go to Kansas City it will cost quite a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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