Your Ideal Fighting Game

[Mister Jack]

I got in a discussion about this recently and thought I'd see what you guys had to say. Here's the hypothetical: If you had the resources to design any kind of fighting game you wanted, what would you like to do with it? Everything from character design to gameplay mechanics to DLC is completely up to you, and you can borrow elements that you think work well in other games or come up with a new idea that no other game has done yet. What elements would come together to make your ideal game?

[fuchikoma]

Most importantly... combos go up to 5 hits. No infinites. This is what took me out of fighting games for years because it's just not fun. Priority no. 1 would be to make a game where both players are always engaging each other dynamically - not trying to lock the other guy into paralysis while you drain his HP by inputting a memorized string of moves.

 

After that, I'm not that adamant about it, so I'm kinda just brainstorming...

 

4 attack buttons, like BB. IMO, middle punch and middle kick are taking it too far.

 

2D, with sidestepping or rolling evasion moves like... KoF '94?

 

DoA-style reversals? A+B to sidestep, A+B+Fwd to roll, A+B+Back to reverse an attack?

 

Air to air, air to ground and ground to air (down+throw) throws.

 

n vs n combat. Like tag teams in the Capcom vs SNK games, but if the roster is 30 fighters, you could go up to 30 v 30... if you wanted to. Maybe some kind of ratio system for stronger fighters - but ideally (magically?) there wouldn't be super guys and weak guys, just different styles. I'd recommend against putting in more than a few guys for this, but hey, if the program can do it and the players feel like it...

 

Same basic SNK/Capcom special moves - QC, HC, DP. Personally, I'd rather not have any hold to charge moves, but if it lends variety... whatever.

 

Strong versions of all special moves doable by repeating the directional inputs (you know, QCF QCF + P) - like normal attacks, it'd be slower, but more damaging - but not devastating.

 

"Ultra" moves wouldn't be on auto-pilot. Not sure what system to adopt. Slap Happy Rhythm Busters? Anyone know what I'm talking about? Maybe something more like some of the Naruto fighting games where you have a stack of QTE buttons to run through as fast as you can, and the opponent can do likewise to mitigate it? Don't know - some kind of quick minigame to modify the damage and flashiness anyhow...

 

A strong single player mode is a must. The boss would not be able to "cheat." No supermassive hitboxes, loads of invulnerability frames, moves that suck you in, teleports, mega high HP, unblockables, etc - just a maddening bastard of a skillful AI, so you know for sure if you were a bit better than him, you'd win - not "if you were 10x better than him you might stand a chance." After unlocking him/her/it, you should be able to play exactly like the AI does in theory, but skill levels equal, the character shouldn't give you much advantage. Maybe just high mobility, hard to read moves, etc.

 

RPG mode - continuous scrolling level, maybe stairs/ladders/elevators to branch paths. Also, monsters should be unlockable, like Tobal (2? Both? I forget...) This mode is where the deeper background info on the fighters would be hidden too - talk to NPCs, find clues, etc.

 

Unlock moves in RPG mode to assign to a custom-made fighter you can use in regular modes, or the RPG. Ultimately, choose from any moves the regular roster can do, and then some. Wide variety of parts to build your fighter with, or if all else fails, a sprite editor. This could be a bad idea, but I'll throw it out there: Hitboxes have to fit the drawn sprites pretty closely, and with increasing hitbox size, speed decreases and damage increases? Obviously this would have to be capped on upper and lower bounds, or you'd get super fast unhittable little guys or giants who only need to hit you twice...

[TCP]

My ideal fighting game has already been created, it's called Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy. It has a wealth of singleplayer content, the absolute best battle system I've ever seen in a fighting game, and a great story-line. Honestly, if they were to take other franchises, and give them a battle system like that, I might just play some more fighting games. But, realistically, I think it'd be hard for any fighting game to top Dissidia 012 (except for maybe a Vita or PS3 Dissidia 3... here's hoping).

[Alex Heat]

Fuchikoma already listed a couple things I would love to see: 5 hit combos being the maximum, much stronger single player content (god forbid, right?) sticking with the basic inputs for special moves (I'm perfectly okay with the SNK style QCF,HCB stuff but for god's sake, no HCBx2 motions! I hate those).

 

Capcom vs. SNK 2's groove selection system would also be great. Maybe even just give you eight slots to make your own grooves in so you can tailor the game how you'd like.

[Mister Jack]

Here's just a few things off the top of my head...

 

 

Simple Specials and Supers

 

Games that do this right: Marvel vs. Capcom, Mortal Kombat

 

Games that do this wrong: King of Fighters

 

Special and super moves should be simple enough to allow anyone to easily remember and perform them. The strategy in a fighting game should come from being able to best utilize a character's arsenal, not being able to perform complicated motions that just serve to frustrate casual players. Quarter circles and dragon punch motions should really be all you ever need. Half circle at most. The 360 motion should never be used more than once for ANY move, and even then it should be used sparingly.

 

 

In-depth Tutorials

 

Games that do this right: Blazblue, Skullgirls

 

Games that do this wrong: Marvel vs Capcom 3

 

Fighting games are generally a niche genre because they are not very friendly to newcomers. Every fighting game should include a tutorial mode that assumes you've never played a fighter before in your life. Teach the basics, teach the various technical terms of fighting games like "hitstun" and "tick throws" so players won't feel overwhelmed. Even better, have character specific tutorials that will teach players a few BnB combos so they'll feel like they can stand a chance.

 

 

Massive Amounts of Single Player Content

 

Games that do this right: Blazblue, Mortal Kombat

 

Games that do this wrong: Marvel vs. Capcom 3

 

Not every gamer can or wishes to fight online. Some people want to play the game, but aren't particularly competitive and don't want to get beaten down by players much much better than them. They still deserve to be catered to. Each game should have both a story mode (a REAL story mode) and a separate arcade mode. Story mode can be either one single campaign with predetermined character switches and high production value (Mortal Kombat) or character specific stories, preferably with multiple endings (Blazblue). On top of that, there should be some kind of challenge and/or RPG mode to play through, as well as a "shop" mode to unlock goodies with in-game currency. A lot of people are reluctant to pay full price for fighters because they're often lacking in content, but I paid full price for Mortal Kombat and never regretted it.

 

 

A Manageable Button Scheme

 

Games that do this right: Marvel vs. Capcom, Mortal Kombat

 

Games that do this wrong: Street Fighter IV

 

If you are going to use more than four buttons for your fighter, you'd better make sure you really need them. Six button schemes can be intimidating to new players, which is why so many fighters these days are using four. People who say that reducing the number of buttons "dumbs it down" are full of crap.

 

 

Balance Patches and Downloadable Characters

 

Games that do this right: Mortal Kombat

 

Games that do this wrong: Pretty much anything by Capcom

 

If a character is broken or unbalanced, don't leave them that way and fix it with a re-release several months later. It's a shitty thing to do to your customers and it will make them resent you. Don't hoard all your new characters for said re-release either. If you simply must release your game twice, offer all the characters as DLC for the first release, and then later on (longer than a few months!) make a "game of the year" edition that includes all the DLC on it. Everybody wins, nobody feels cheated.

 

 

 

Challenging But Not Cheap Bosses

 

Games that do this right: Street Fighter II, Super Smash Bros

 

Games that do this wrong: Mortal Kombat, King of Fighters

 

Boss characters should be hard, but they should be forced to play by the same rules as everyone else. If you have to severely nerf them in order to make them an unlockable character, you're doing it wrong. No auto-regenerating health or super meter, no one hit kill supers, no super-armor unless it's part of a specific special move. About the only unfair advantage a boss should ever have is immunity to throws, and only if they're huge. Make them powerful. Hell, give them better moves if you want, but don't give them special treatment that none of the other characters get.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Mister Jack

[Johnny]

Most importantly... combos go up to 5 hits. No infinites.

 

I have to agree infinites are dumb as shit and combos in many games - even ones I love - can go on for far longer than they perhaps should... But 5 hits feels like too little for my taste. Five hits might be enough in 3D fighters but in many games that is absolutely nothing. Take UMvC3, for example. One of my friends who had previous experience only in Super Smash and Soul Calibur picked up the controller and performed a 10 hit combo on his second or third try after getting about half a minute's worth of basic control instructions from me. And that combo lasted for mere seconds.

 

I guess I'm trying to say... Smaller combos, yes. Setting a specific number of hits... Not so sure.

 

"Ultra" moves wouldn't be on auto-pilot. Not sure what system to adopt. Slap Happy Rhythm Busters? Anyone know what I'm talking about? Maybe something more like some of the Naruto fighting games where you have a stack of QTE buttons to run through as fast as you can, and the opponent can do likewise to mitigate it? Don't know - some kind of quick minigame to modify the damage and flashiness anyhow...

 

I feel like the solution to this is what BlazBlue does: Don't make your animations for supers/ultras stupidly long. In BB, most of the distortion drives (obviously not the Astrals) are over quickly enough that it doesn't become a problem. Just a superflash and then go.

[Baconrath]

The command list must not be made of heiroglyphics unless you do a bang up job explaining them.

 

Challenge for fighting game devs: use actual Egyption heiroglyphics. I dare you.

 

EDIT: don't rely on a game manual to explain your symbolage. Explain it IN GAME.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Baconrath

[Mister Jack]

Skullgirls did pretty decent with handling infinites. If the game detected any repetition in a combo, you could burst out of it. No meter was necessary, there was no limited stock of them, and it didn't cause any negative effects. If someone catches you in a loop, you can break out of it. Period. On top of that, once a combo becomes so long, it starts doing almost no damage whatsoever, while the enemy starts building absurd amounts of meter with every hit they take.

[excel_excel]

A proper fleshed out single player. If its on console then its simple, no quarter circle or whatever bullshit, give us a special move button and from that with direction inputs let us do special moves.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

A proper fleshed out single player. If its on console then its simple, no quarter circle or whatever bullshit, give us a special move button and from that with direction inputs let us do special moves.

 

So what, only 4 special, and the specials wouldn't be based on punching, kicking, range, or power? Do you think such a simple game would be fun? I think that would work well in something more like a brawler.

[Strangelove]

So like Super Smash Bros?

[fuchikoma]

A proper fleshed out single player. If its on console then its simple, no quarter circle or whatever bullshit, give us a special move button and from that with direction inputs let us do special moves.

 

The Smackdown WWF/WWE wrestling games worked like that... Well, at least in 2 and 3. You'd lock onto an opponent and then use directions to move, but also as a move choice modifier.

 

Personally, I still like the risk/reward thing of more complicated inputs, but that is a common complaint. I actually miss some of the crazy SNK inputs like back, half circle back, forward, punch.

[excel_excel]

A proper fleshed out single player. If its on console then its simple, no quarter circle or whatever bullshit, give us a special move button and from that with direction inputs let us do special moves.

 

So what, only 4 special, and the specials wouldn't be based on punching, kicking, range, or power? Do you think such a simple game would be fun? I think that would work well in something more like a brawler.

 

No, I'm not saying its limited to 4 specials, there are various ways to put more in maybe tap a direction twice or something.

As for no specials being based on punch and the like, where did I say that?

What's wrong with having a fighting game be accessible on a controller?

[excel_excel]

So like Super Smash Bros?

 

No, not at all. Blazblue has a 'drive button' that worked a little like that, but it still had all the different inputs that Street Fighter and the like has.

[Strangelove]

Ahh, I get what youre saying.

 

What would the button do if you didnt press the right directional inputs though? It HAS to do something.

[excel_excel]

I guess it could just be another input for a move like in Blazblue. I'm not saying at all that it has to be limited at all though, there's multiple ways to simplify inputs so its comfortable for a controller, or just easier to perform. Maybe I'm wrong and its a key part of whatever Fighting game people like, but I see it as a barrier of entry to even the simplest fighting games. Maybe I'm wrong though and the button inputs being hard to perform on a controller is there for a good reason.

 

lets take Ryu from Street Fighter X Tekken. He has 5 special moves btw.

Shoryuken

Forward, Down, Diagonal Forward, Punch, and to do the EX its two punches.

 

You could have it be Up and Special to do the normal Shoryuken, and Up and Special and another button to do the EX version.

Edited May 1, 2012 by excel_excel

[Strangelove]

I guess it could just be another input for a move like in Blazblue. I'm not saying at all that it has to be limited at all though, there's multiple ways to simplify inputs so its comfortable for a controller, or just easier to perform. Maybe I'm wrong and its a key part of whatever Fighting game people like, but I see it as a barrier of entry to even the simplest fighting games. Maybe I'm wrong though and the button inputs being hard to perform on a controller is there for a good reason.

 

lets take Ryu from Street Fighter X Tekken. He has 5 special moves btw.

Shoryuken

Forward, Down, Diagonal Forward, Punch, and to do the EX its two punches.

 

You could have it be Up and Special to do the normal Shoryuken, and Up and Special and another button to do the EX version.

 

I think the problem is making a mistake. You could do it wrong and pressing up would have the character jumping. It would fuck your shit up so bad.

The other problem with a special button is that if you mess up is how much itll cost you. You mess up a shorykuen and youll maybe do a punch. Then its back to business. But with a designated special button, youd have to put something there that wouldnt delay you too much.

I just think its difficult to get comfortable with a button that has a versatile identity. It would be too risky and it wouldnt offer too much payoff.

At least thats how I see it.

[Strangelove]

Im going to try to keep it simple. Id probably make a fighting game like Street Fighter Alpha 1 mixed with UMvC3. It would not really change anything. It would not shake up the fighting game world in the least.

 

Alpha 1: Chain combos, special moves, super moves that need a super bar, air blocking, a reasonable unspammable counter system, and minimal but doable juggling. Thats what id keep.

UMvC3: restrict to 4 main buttons, have every character have a maximum of 4 special moves(thats more of a SF2 thing) and 2 super moves. Like MvC3, ALL characters would do a different attack if you pressed forward while pressing the heavy kick or heavy punch button. Like the Vs series, super moves would be performed while doing the normal half circle but pressing both light and heavy buttons of the corresponding limb.

 

At its very basic, I dont think a good fighting game requires a manual or a in-depth tutorial. It should be organic. You should be able to perform actions and then in your head see how they could go together. You should stumble upon moves just by watching the character. I think the hadoken is the perfect example. Ryu's hands go down, then theyre lifted forward to fire the ball. It makes absolute perfect sense thats how youd perform the move by mimicking the motion and pressing the punch button.

Most of all, I dont think it should have too many different types of systems in it. While the fighting community loves having super, special, ex, x-factor, pandora, blah blah blah moves, I think its too much and at the end of the day I think its what truly confuses the average gamer. It makes things needlessly complicated. I think super and special moves are just fine.

 

This is off the top of my head though, so dont quote me on anything. I could change my mind later.

[excel_excel]

I guess it could just be another input for a move like in Blazblue. I'm not saying at all that it has to be limited at all though, there's multiple ways to simplify inputs so its comfortable for a controller, or just easier to perform. Maybe I'm wrong and its a key part of whatever Fighting game people like, but I see it as a barrier of entry to even the simplest fighting games. Maybe I'm wrong though and the button inputs being hard to perform on a controller is there for a good reason.

 

lets take Ryu from Street Fighter X Tekken. He has 5 special moves btw.

Shoryuken

Forward, Down, Diagonal Forward, Punch, and to do the EX its two punches.

 

You could have it be Up and Special to do the normal Shoryuken, and Up and Special and another button to do the EX version.

 

I think the problem is making a mistake. You could do it wrong and pressing up would have the character jumping. It would fuck your shit up so bad.

The other problem with a special button is that if you mess up is how much itll cost you. You mess up a shorykuen and youll maybe do a punch. Then its back to business. But with a designated special button, youd have to put something there that wouldnt delay you too much.

I just think its difficult to get comfortable with a button that has a versatile identity. It would be too risky and it wouldnt offer too much payoff.

At least thats how I see it.

 

There are plenty of moves that use Up already in their button combination though and there's plenty of moves that combine only a movement and a button. It wouldn't be more risky then I doing any other button inputs.

[Strangelove]

I guess it could just be another input for a move like in Blazblue. I'm not saying at all that it has to be limited at all though, there's multiple ways to simplify inputs so its comfortable for a controller, or just easier to perform. Maybe I'm wrong and its a key part of whatever Fighting game people like, but I see it as a barrier of entry to even the simplest fighting games. Maybe I'm wrong though and the button inputs being hard to perform on a controller is there for a good reason.

 

lets take Ryu from Street Fighter X Tekken. He has 5 special moves btw.

Shoryuken

Forward, Down, Diagonal Forward, Punch, and to do the EX its two punches.

 

You could have it be Up and Special to do the normal Shoryuken, and Up and Special and another button to do the EX version.

 

I think the problem is making a mistake. You could do it wrong and pressing up would have the character jumping. It would fuck your shit up so bad.

The other problem with a special button is that if you mess up is how much itll cost you. You mess up a shorykuen and youll maybe do a punch. Then its back to business. But with a designated special button, youd have to put something there that wouldnt delay you too much.

I just think its difficult to get comfortable with a button that has a versatile identity. It would be too risky and it wouldnt offer too much payoff.

At least thats how I see it.

 

There are plenty of moves that use Up already in their button combination though and there's plenty of moves that combine only a movement and a button. It wouldn't be more risky then I doing any other button inputs.

 

im not a big Blazblue player, but what game does moves like that?

Aside from charge moves(which make sense), Akuma in SF3 is the only one who has a move where you press up twice and the 3 kick buttons, and its pretty hard to do correctly.

I think the problem with the special button is how you have to tear yourself apart from your basic buttons just to do a special move. In the end it just sounds like more work than it should be. Being able to do special moves with your kick and punch buttons makes it all gel together. Its flows and builds momentum. Im just having a hard time imagining it.

Not to mention that the MK 5 button configuration pisses me the fuck off. I think having a special block button in a fighting game is beyond retarded. I always sucked at blocking because I felt it was needlessly difficult to go out of my way to press a button when I can just lean back on my stick. I think thats the feeling I get with the special button.

[Mister Jack]

Blazblue has two different control styles: For most players there's the technical mode (light, medium, heavy, drive) but for beginners there's stylish mode (light/medium, heavy, special, throw). Obviously technical mode ultimately gives you more control, but if you're just not interested in practicing then stylish mode at least gives you the ability to keep up.

[Johnny]

Stylish mode does absolutely not give you the ability to keep up with any decent player. Additionally it teaches the player to play the game "wrong", which they will have to unlearn if they ever try to get better.

 

@Excel: I don't think having up+attack as standard input for moves is a good idea in a game where up is also jump. You want to have as few overlapping inputs as possible.

 

Personally when it comes to inputs, I think UMvC3 does it very close to right. Very lenient on motions.