What are you currently playing?

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Majora's Mask on 3DS. Never played through this game at all, actually. It's really damn fun. More fun than I've had with any re-play of Ocarina of Time.

[SomTervo]

 

 

That sucks about the crashing. I played on 360 and it was a slightly dumb game in concept, but really fun, with no issues whatsoever.

 

On Hard mode, some of the later gunfights outperformed many of Halo and Mass Effect's best. It was great.

 

Plus just you wait for that ending. Phenomenal last hour or so to The Bureau, even if the first half of the game is really quite poor. And shouldn't have been called XCOM.

Yeah, the first couple missions had some encounters that were kinda frustrating but now that I've leveled up my squad a bit I'm really glad I'm playing on Veteran difficulty. Now it's just challenging enough to be satisfying.

 

Curious to see what you mean about the ending, though, since I heard it wasn't very good. Hopefully I'll end up agreeing with you.

 

 

I actually never read anything about the game at all, so I had no outside influence on the opinion above re story. I rented it, with no expectations, and returned it after I finished it. I loved the ending. Does a meta-narrative ending better than many, many games. Not the best written in terms of dialogue, but great in terms of concept and execution.

 

And yes, the difficulty balance is perfect on Veteran from about mid-game.

 

Majora's Mask on 3DS. Never played through this game at all, actually. It's really damn fun. More fun than I've had with any re-play of Ocarina of Time.

I'm so jelly. Looking forward to grabbing an N3DS later this year, solely for OOT and MM. Might pay off my credit card then get it on that. Plus Monster Hunter 4 U to play with my buddy.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

^I got it for Xenoblade. I travel a lot for work and nothing kills a plane ride like a video game I've found. Movies do alright and of course sleeping is the best but I'm not going to sleep on a 10am flight across the country.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Played what I think is the majority of Transistor over the weekend (HLtB suggests it's short). Good stuff thus far. About what you'd expect if you played Bastion. Also tried Roundabout for a few hours when the Internet was down. Quirky little game, but getting from mission to mission is a pain in the ass.

[SomTervo]

^I got it for Xenoblade. I travel a lot for work and nothing kills a plane ride like a video game I've found. Movies do alright and of course sleeping is the best but I'm not going to sleep on a 10am flight across the country.

 

Shit, I've only heard good things about Xenoblade, too. Sounds like a great console.

[IDDQD]

Plus just you wait for that ending. Phenomenal last hour or so to The Bureau, even if the first half of the game is really quite poor. And shouldn't have been called XCOM.

Could you elaborate on that? I'm curious, because I found the ending to be such a cheap cop out I was really disenchanted after spending 15-or-so hours with it. I mean:

 

why the hell would they go out of the way to characterise the main bloke and make me spend so much time in his shoes only to flush him down the toilet right before the final mission, replacing him with some old, boring, emotionless, poorly characterised fart who's only job was to yammer in my ear for the whole game? I was really hoping for some final twist and Carter's epic comeback, but no. You just shot up a bunch of aliens and that was it. Oh yeah, and it turns out you were some weird mind controlling alien-thing the whole time, not the actual character. Cool. Whatever. Interesting idea, but horrible execution, in my opinion.

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by IDDQD

[toxicitizen]

Could you elaborate on that? I'm curious, because I found the ending to be such a cheap cop out I was really disenchanted after spending 15-or-so hours with it. I mean:

 

why the hell would they go out of the way to characterise the main bloke and make me spend so much time in his shoes only to flush him down the toilet right before the final mission, replacing him with some old, boring, emotionless, poorly characterised fart who's only job was to yammer in my ear for the whole game? I was really hoping for some final twist and Carter's epic comeback, but no. You just shot up a bunch of aliens and that was it. Oh yeah, and it turns out you were some weird mind controlling alien-thing the whole time, not the actual character. Cool. Whatever. Interesting idea, but horrible execution, in my opinion.

 

I think that was the entire point. The game was implying that

 

 

it wasn't Carter that was being characterized, it was the Ethereal. I'm pretty sure at one point someone straight up suggests that the Ethereal was the real hero, not Carter.

 

 

I'm with you on the execution being sub-par, though. But I liked the twist. It seemed weird at the time but I can see what they were going for and I can appreciate that they tried to do something original with the story.

[IDDQD]

I've just read a plot summary on wikipedia and I gotta say, I'm pretty confused now. Turns out that the game has multiple endings. No I gotta play it again, because it looks like the ending I got was shit. But yeah, it was a pretty unique idea for a twist, sure. Imagine if someone would have used it to break the fourth wall - now that would have been fantastic.

[toxicitizen]

I've just read a plot summary on wikipedia and I gotta say, I'm pretty confused now. Turns out that the game has multiple endings. No I gotta play it again, because it looks like the ending I got was shit. But yeah, it was a pretty unique idea for a twist, sure. Imagine if someone would have used it to break the fourth wall - now that would have been fantastic.

Well

 

 

I could be way off here but I would assume the multiple endings thing has to do with how, after Carter rejects the Ethereal, you have to choose a new host between 3 people. I went with the lady, uh... Weaver, I think her name was? Who did you pick?

 

Actually, now that I think about it, you did mention the game "making you play as some boring dude" or something along those lines. Did you not realize you had a choice? Or did the game not give you one? That'd be an interesting bit of branching storytelling I didn't realize was there.

 

edit: Yeah okay, just read up on it and I was right. You get a slightly different ending depending on who you pick.

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by FLD

[IDDQD]

 

I've just read a plot summary on wikipedia and I gotta say, I'm pretty confused now. Turns out that the game has multiple endings. No I gotta play it again, because it looks like the ending I got was shit. But yeah, it was a pretty unique idea for a twist, sure. Imagine if someone would have used it to break the fourth wall - now that would have been fantastic.

Well

 

 

I could be way off here but I would assume the multiple endings thing has to do with how, after Carter rejects the Ethereal, you have to choose a new host between 3 people. I went with the lady, uh... Weaver, I think her name was? Who did you pick?

 

Actually, now that I think about it, you did mention the game "making you play as some boring dude" or something along those lines. Did you not realize you had a choice? Or did the game not give you one? That'd be an interesting bit of branching storytelling I didn't realize was there.

 

edit: Yeah okay, just read up on it and I was right. You get a slightly different ending depending on who you pick.

 

 

Crikey, it's been a while, so I my memory on that might be a little sketchy, but I honestly can't remember if I was choosing anyone. I just remeber that the Ethereal left Carter's body and next thing I know, I'm playing as Fawkes and I'm on this large alien ship orbiting the Earth. Also, wikipedia says about the scenario where Carter blows up with the Ethereal, which actually sound more compelling than the other endings. I'll have to play it again and see what's the actual outcome of that, since the plot summary is vague about the details.

 

[toxicitizen]

 

Also, wikipedia says about the scenario where Carter blows up with the Ethereal, which actually sound more compelling than the other endings. I'll have to play it again and see what's the actual outcome of that, since the plot summary is vague about the details.

 

If we're thinking of the same thing, it's more of a bad ending/joke game over. Nothing really happens, credits just roll.

 

 

It's when Carter rejects the Ethereal and threatens to blow himself up as leverage. There's a timer for you to push a button to eject from him. It's not really a choice, the game just ends if you don't do it. When you do it, you have to choose which new host you want.

 

Edited April 16, 2015 by FLD

[SomTervo]

I love that the game managed to foster discussions like this. Imho it's a big success on some level that you're chatting about it like that – even if your discussion is mostly confusion

 

It is certainly one of the best almost-fourth-wall breaking endings in gaming history.

 

The only other moment in a game I've experienced which was similar was at the end of Assassin's Creed 2 when Juno (or whoever) turns and looks at the camera, and says 'I'm really talking to you, you're the important one here'. The ending of the Bureau was like that, stretched into an entire game's climax.

Edited April 17, 2015 by kenshi_ryden

[Little Pirate]

I've been hooked on Persona 3 Portable, got it for my phone. I haven't engaged in an JRPG in a long while, so it was a nice game to get back into after so long. I had a few peeves with how a few of the fetch quests worked and the one-day-only deadlines. Otherwise, I like the balance of story and gameplay.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Shit man. Xenoblade Chronicles is good. Way addicted.

[toxicitizen]

It is certainly one of the best almost-fourth-wall breaking endings in gaming history.

Here you go again with your hyperbole.

 

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to mention The Bureau in the same sentence as the words "gaming history". It's a decent but very derivative tactical third-person shooter with a neat twist. The problem is the twist is pretty much the only memorable thing about it. I seriously doubt it's going to remembered by many ten years from now.

[IDDQD]

 

It is certainly one of the best almost-fourth-wall breaking endings in gaming history.

Here you go again with your hyperbole.

 

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to mention The Bureau in the same sentence as the words "gaming history". It's a decent but very derivative tactical third-person shooter with a neat twist. The problem is the twist is pretty much the only memorable thing about it. I seriously doubt it's going to remembered by many ten years from now.

 

 

It's hard to disagree with that, but nevertheless, I would like to see someone re-using similar idea and making a game, that would actually write itself in annals of gaming history. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say it broke fourth wall, since at no point any of the characters refer to the player, specifically. You could say, it played on the conventions and twisted them for story purposes. Kind of like Spec Ops The line, but without murdering of innocents.

 

[toxicitizen]

Yeah, The Bureau doesn't break the fourth wall at all but it was close enough that I didn't bother correcting it. It's really more of a player stand-in character, I think.

 

Spec Ops: The Line does break the fourth wall a little bit, though. It addresses the player directly during some loading screens. I mean, most games do that with loading tips and whatnot but in Spec Ops it was quite a bit more blatant and thematically relevant, which arguably makes it part of the plot.

Edited April 18, 2015 by FLD

[Baconrath]

The previous devs of Hawken apparently went bankrupt but it has recently been passed to a new set of devs so I've been playing a lot lately. It's still in that weird early access limbo but a lot been done to it in these past few months (so the almost year long radio silence is over hooray).

 

Also <3 Dino D-Day

[Saturnine Tenshi]

iDOLM@STER 2, which I'm shit at.

[TheMightyEthan]

I started playing Sunset Overdrive, and so far I'm really enjoying it.  Not really much else to say.

[SomTervo]

 

 

It is certainly one of the best almost-fourth-wall breaking endings in gaming history.

Here you go again with your hyperbole.

 

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to mention The Bureau in the same sentence as the words "gaming history". It's a decent but very derivative tactical third-person shooter with a neat twist. The problem is the twist is pretty much the only memorable thing about it. I seriously doubt it's going to remembered by many ten years from now.

 

 

It's hard to disagree with that, but nevertheless, I would like to see someone re-using similar idea and making a game, that would actually write itself in annals of gaming history. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say it broke fourth wall, since at no point any of the characters refer to the player, specifically. You could say, it played on the conventions and twisted them for story purposes. Kind of like Spec Ops The line, but without murdering of innocents.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, The Bureau doesn't break the fourth wall at all but it was close enough that I didn't bother correcting it. It's really more of a player stand-in character, I think.

 

Spec Ops: The Line does break the fourth wall a little bit, though. It addresses the player directly during some loading screens. I mean, most games do that with loading tips and whatnot but in Spec Ops it was quite a bit more blatant and thematically relevant, which arguably makes it part of the plot.

 

I love getting carried away with myself.

 

I've already brought it up a few times since on random websites saying 'hey Bureau did this way better than that other game'. For me, that's gaming history. Not for being a great game - because it isn't - but for doing something unique which is worth talking about.

 

And yeah, it doesn't really cross the line of breaking the fourth wall, so I guess that was a bad angle on my part. But it still provides that uncanny moment when the game's camera, which is basically you avatar, is addressed directly. It tiptoes right up to that fine line but doesn't cross it. I suppose my statement would have been more correct if I'd said it's one of the greatest metanarratives in gaming history. Does it much better than, say, AC or Bioshock Infinite imo. And again, that's not saying it's a great story or a great game, but that the metanarrative was a really unique thing.

 

I actually loaded up Spec Ops last night to try and finish it off, backlogwise.

 

Really good game. As much as the gameplay is often frustratingly run-of-the-mill, it's kind of okay because that's sort of the point. The writing is all deceptively excellent, too. I love those loading screen messages, some of them pose really challenging questions and kind of make you do a double take for a moment.

 

I am having to force myself through it a bit. It's not a great game to play.

Edited April 22, 2015 by kenshi_ryden

[toxicitizen]

I love getting carried away with myself.

 

I've already brought it up a few times since on random websites saying 'hey Bureau did this way better than that other game'. For me, that's gaming history. Not for being a great game - because it isn't - but for doing something unique which is worth talking about.

 

And yeah, it doesn't really cross the line of breaking the fourth wall, so I guess that was a bad angle on my part. But it still provides that uncanny moment when the game's camera, which is basically you avatar, is addressed directly. It tiptoes right up to that fine line but doesn't cross it. I suppose my statement would have been more correct if I'd said it's one of the greatest metanarratives in gaming history. Does it much better than, say, AC or Bioshock Infinite imo. And again, that's not saying it's a great story or a great game, but that the metanarrative was a really unique thing.

I get what you're saying but I can't say I completely agree. Just because it's something that's not done very often (or very well) doesn't necessarily make it one of the greatest. I'd say The Bureau is about on the level of AC, where it's just kinda there. It's not actually saying anything with it nor is it used to achieve any kind of point. In AC it was used for shock value more than anything else:

 

"The weird alien lady from the past is actually talking to Desmond and not to Ezio!"

 

and in The Bureau it's more along the lines of

 

"Psych! You're not really playing as Carter, you're literally pulling his strings! ...Get it?! We did a thing!"

 

 

In both cases, it amounts to little more than a neat plot twist. Which is fine, I love me a good twist as much as the next guy. But I wouldn't call either of them "one of the greatest" at doing this when you have games like Spec Ops, which is actually using its metanarrative as a way to make a commentary. It's sarcastically asking the player "Aren't you awesome for murdering all those people??" to highlight the disconnect between plot and mechanics in modern shooters. Hotline Miami also kinda does more with the idea when it asks the player, indirectly through Jacket, "Why do you enjoy hurting people?". And hell, even BioShock Infinite is at least trying to talk about how pointless binary player choices ultimately are.

 

But honestly, this all kinda boils down to semantics, I suppose. It really depends on how you define "greatest".

[SomTervo]

Great post - but in this case it actually boils down to definition of 'metanarrative'.

 

I used the wrong phrase. I meant to say 'metafiction'. 'Metanarrative' is something more historical – stories which are about stories, explaining our culture or history and how it has developed. (Totally irrelevant.)

 

'Metafiction' is fiction which reminds you your experiencing fiction. All of the things you mention above do that - Spec Ops and Hotline Miami challenge the reader directly through their text. But the way that AC2 and The Bureau do it is by highlighting the camera-as-player-agent to break our connection to the protagonist and put the focus on the fact that we're looking through a window into a simulated world. Which is videogames' own brand of metafiction. It's still bluntly reminding you that you're experiencing fiction in that both games see you controlling meaningless puppets. It's just handled differently in Spec Ops and HM, where it's more a linguistic challenge rather than one done through game mechanics. The Bureau's one was a plot twist but also a nice moment metafiction. The AC/Bureau examples show stories which reflect on themselves, highlighting that they are stories - but the extra videogame angle is that they use the mechanics of playing a videogame to highlight that it is a videogame.

 

 

By holding the controller and making this guy do stuff, you're doing the same thing that this entity was - you are the entity. (I think this is what I meant by fourth wall breaking. It breaks the fourth wall through gameplay rather than verbally addressing the player.) And the entity has been playing him like a game. Your act of playing him like a game highlight the fact that you're just playing a game.

 

 

Good ole critical theory. Imho it is a really pertinent example of metafiction in games - but indeed, maybe the word 'great' isn't a good one to drop here. Also I think Bioshock Infinite touches on metafiction, but imo they never bloody follow through with that idea of choice in games. Not like they did in the original Bioshock at least. Bioshock is full-bodied metafiction.

 

Edit: we've probably also reached point of saturation where, despite anything we'll say, I see something there which you don't and vice versa. Guess we gotta lay the subjective interpretation dog to rest at some point! In The Bureau I saw that nice metafiction stuff which I recognised in books from my literature honours, but if you don't see it, than that's fine.

Edited April 23, 2015 by kenshi_ryden

[SomTervo]

And back on-topic...

 

 

Another backlog gem. I enjoy the side quests while I'm doing them but whenever I finish one I'm just confronted with this annoying, turgid list of missions I can barely remember starting which all sound dull as shit.

 

It doesn't help when the game tells you where to go every step of the way for every objective. Oh, I have to go steal a horn from a guys house? Great, I can't wait! Oh, hang on. You're telling me where his house is, then to walk upstairs, go into his bedroom, take the horn while putting a big white icon above right where it is, then to leave his house and return directly to the quest giver.

 

Rather than just telling me where his house is and leaving the rest up to me.

 

Classic checklist, A-to-B-rather-than-fun gameplay.

 

Still has its moments.

[toxicitizen]

Great post - but in this case it actually boils down to definition of 'metanarrative'.

 

I used the wrong phrase. I meant to say 'metafiction'. 'Metanarrative' is something more historical – stories which are about stories, explaining our culture or history and how it has developed. (Totally irrelevant.)

Oh, right. Well, I got what you meant anyway so it's not like it makes much of a difference but yeah, good catch.

 

'Metafiction' is fiction which reminds you your experiencing fiction. All of the things you mention above do that - Spec Ops and Hotline Miami challenge the reader directly through their text. But the way that AC2 and The Bureau do it is by highlighting the camera-as-player-agent to break our connection to the protagonist and put the focus on the fact that we're looking through a window into a simulated world. Which is videogames' own brand of metafiction. It's still bluntly reminding you that you're experiencing fiction in that both games see you controlling meaningless puppets. It's just handled differently in Spec Ops and HM, where it's more a linguistic challenge rather than one done through game mechanics. The Bureau's one was a plot twist but also a nice moment metafiction. The AC/Bureau examples show stories which reflect on themselves, highlighting that they are stories - but the extra videogame angle is that they use the mechanics of playing a videogame to highlight that it is a videogame.

 

 

By holding the controller and making this guy do stuff, you're doing the same thing that this entity was - you are the entity. (I think this is what I meant by fourth wall breaking. It breaks the fourth wall through gameplay rather than verbally addressing the player.) And the entity has been playing him like a game. Your act of playing him like a game highlight the fact that you're just playing a game.

 

I still don't think fourth wall is an accurate way to describe it even then. The audience is never addressed specifically, it's always an in-game entity or there's an in-game context to justify a character addressing the camera directly, like Desmond being in the Animus. But whatever, I'm probably just being pedantic. It's not like I fundamentally disagree with what you're saying or anything.

 

But yeah, there's definitely a player metaphor in there. It's kinda hard to miss. That's what I was referring to in my spoiler tag above. My point was that they're not really using that metaphor to do or say anything beyond just having a surprising plot twist.

 

Good ole critical theory. Imho it is a really pertinent example of metafiction in games - but indeed, maybe the word 'great' isn't a good one to drop here. Also I think Bioshock Infinite touches on metafiction, but imo they never bloody follow through with that idea of choice in games. Not like they did in the original Bioshock at least. Bioshock is full-bodied metafiction.

 

Edit: we've probably also reached point of saturation where, despite anything we'll say, I see something there which you don't and vice versa. Guess we gotta lay the subjective interpretation dog to rest at some point! In The Bureau I saw that nice metafiction stuff which I recognised in books from my literature honours, but if you don't see it, than that's fine.

Like I said, I definitely see what you're talking about. I'm not saying it's not there or that it was a bad use of the concept. I guess shallow would be a better way to put it? I just think that to be considered a great example of it it would need to actually be using the concept to achieve some kind of thematic goal rather than a purely narrative one. The meta aspect of The Bureau didn't really add anything in the sense where the story was about something beyond the narrative itself.

 

As for Bioshock Infinite, yeah, I very deliberately chose my words when I said it was "at least trying". Personally, I'd rather a game try and fail than not try at all but yeah, that can backfire and cause it to fall flat on its face.

 

Anyway, you're right, we should probably leave it at that before we spam the thread any more than we already have. But I find this kind of analysis to be fascinating, so it's kinda nice to get the chance to have this kind of discussion every once in a while. It's certainly more fun than just watching video essays about it on youtube.