What are you currently playing?

[Strangelove]

So I played Demons Soul for like an hour, is that good enough for me to judge it? It's an ugly game even for its time and the gameplay is good, but it's nothing I haven't played before. I'm assuming the online gimmick was a highlight back when it came out but I don't care for it. Probably because I had heard so much about it.

 

Am I wrong in saying that it's a slower clunkier less bombastic Ninja Gaiden? That's the feel I got from it. Blocking, parrying, dodging, punishing, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

And I cannot stress enough how goddamn ugly this game is. I was having Runescape flashbacks while playing this thing.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Strangelove

[Mister Jack]

I didn't like Demon's Souls either.  In fact, I don't really like the aesthetic for any of the Souls games.  I pretty much hateplayed my way through Demon's Souls so people would stop telling me I only quit it the first time because I'm a filthy casual or whatever.  

 

I BEAT IT, OKAY?  SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[TheMightyEthan]

I only made it to the first real boss in Dark Souls 2. Never even tried Dark Souls 1. I can deal with difficulty, I just didn't like the amount of retracing steps required after death. I want hard games to be more like Super Meat Boy, where it kills you constantly but you only lose like 5 seconds of progress.

[CorgiShinobi]

As much as I enjoy the games, I hate the mentality behind the more "dedicated" player base. I'm actually okay with PvP hardly being a main component of Bloodborne. Why? Because of what little there is, you still get the crowd that wants everyone to play by their meta-game.

[Mister Jack]

I'm fine with hard games if it at least feels like you're making some kind of progress while you're constantly getting killed.  Binding of Isaac is one of my favorite games and it starts out hard as balls.  However, you're frequently unlocking new rooms or challenges while you play, so when you die it rarely feels like wasted time.  That whole soul dropping mechanic can go fuck itself right in the ass, though. The first time I played Demon's Souls, I lost three hours worth of progress because I couldn't get back to my body one time, and it was then that I decided I wasn't having fun anymore and decided to stop.  It took me years to pick the game back up again.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mister Jack

[toxicitizen]

I didn't like Demon's Souls either.  In fact, I don't really like the aesthetic for any of the Souls games.  I pretty much hateplayed my way through Demon's Souls so people would stop telling me I only quit it the first time because I'm a filthy casual or whatever.  

 

I BEAT IT, OKAY?  SHUT THE FUCK UP.

 

 Why would that even bother you? Anyone that actually says that to you is a fucking idiot. Likewise bragging about how "hardcore" they are for beating the game. It's not actually that hard.

 

As much as I enjoy the games, I hate the mentality behind the more "dedicated" player base. I'm actually okay with PvP hardly being a main component of Bloodborne. Why? Because of what little there is, you still get the crowd that wants everyone to play by their meta-game.

 

Yeah, I didn't stick around too long in the Dark Souls subreddit. "Oh you put soul levels in dex? Fuck you, your opinion is invalid!". I blame the marketing more than the game itself, though. For From, it was never about the crushing difficulty. The difficulty is only really there to emphasize the oppressive atmosphere of the game's world. Demons wasn't marketed like that at all. Namco are the ones who kept pushing that "Ur goan die!" nonsense.

 

Personally, I don't give a fuck. I level up dex, use a katana and summon help for boss fights because I'm playing the game to have fun. That makes me literally Hitler to some of those people, though.

 

I'm fine with hard games if it at least feels like you're making some kind of progress while you're constantly getting killed.  Binding of Isaac is one of my favorite games and it starts out hard as balls.  However, you're frequently unlocking new rooms or challenges while you play, so when you die it rarely feels like wasted time.  That whole soul dropping mechanic can go fuck itself right in the ass, though. The first time I played Demon's Souls, I lost three hours worth of progress because I couldn't get back to my body one time, and it was then that I decided I wasn't having fun anymore and decided to stop.  It took me years to pick the game back up again.

I kinda feel like the Souls games are a little like that, though. You're not explicitly unlocking stuff but it's kinda like Rogue Legacy where the more you level up the easier it gets. I remember reading an interview with one of the devs where he actually admitted they set out to make a 2D Dark Souls kinda game. And I think their pulled it off pretty well.

Edited April 30, 2015 by FLD

[Mister Jack]

I just got sick of hearing it.  I'm also kind of surprised to hear one of the Rogue Legacy devs say that because I love Rogue Legacy but I don't think it feels like a Souls game at all.

[toxicitizen]

It's pretty blatant, to be honest. You probably don't have a full grasp on what the Souls games are really like, then. Which, to be fair, they are kind of obtuse about a lot of things. And maybe the similarities are stronger with Dark than with Demons. It's been quite a while since I last played Demons so I'm comparing it to Dark Souls more than anything. They share a lot of the same design philosophies but Dark Souls is a bit different in a few ways.

 

But yeah, I mentioned Rogue Legacy specifically because I thought I remembered you liking it. It's pretty much 2D Souls, no joke.

Edited April 30, 2015 by FLD

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Rogue Legacy was much more forgiving, though. Especially when it comes to backtracking and obtuseness. And farming.

 

Edit: Than Demon's. Haven't touched Dark.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Saturnine Tenshi

[Mister Jack]

It's pretty blatant, to be honest. You probably don't have a full grasp on what the Souls games are really like, then. Which, to be fair, they are kind of obtuse about a lot of things. And maybe the similarities are stronger with Dark than with Demons. It's been quite a while since I last played Demons so I'm comparing it to Dark Souls more than anything. They share a lot of the same design philosophies but Dark Souls is a bit different in a few ways.

 

But yeah, I mentioned Rogue Legacy specifically because I thought I remembered you liking it. It's pretty much 2D Souls, no joke.

 

Well how is that, exactly?  I never really bothered with Dark because it just seemed like more Demon's to me, and Demon's felt nothing like Rogue Legacy whatsoever.

[toxicitizen]

Rogue Legacy was much more forgiving, though. Especially when it comes to backtracking and obtuseness. And farming.

 

Edit: Than Demon's. Haven't touched Dark.

Well, Rogue Legacy is a much simpler game. So there's that. I'd also argue that there isn't much backtracking in Souls nor do you need to actually farm to get through the game. But YMMV, I suppose. 

 

Well how is that, exactly?  I never really bothered with Dark because it just seemed like more Demon's to me, and Demon's felt nothing like Rogue Legacy whatsoever.

Dark Souls is a lot more complex than Rogue Legacy but the basic structure is very similar. Dark is more open than Demons, so after the tutorial you get dropped into the "open" world and you can go whichever way you like. In Rogue Legacy this is limited to up, down and right (iirc the Maya, the Darkness and the Forest, respectively?) and each area has its own boss and difficulty level.

 

In Dark Souls, it's less straightforward but the overall idea is the same. It's obviously much bigger but there's a recommended logical order to tackle the areas in that creates a reasonable difficulty curve. As long as you don't make the mistake of picking the master key as your starting gift, the game vaguely guides you through the early areas. A good way to put it would be that Rogue Legacy feels a bit like a demake of Dark Souls. It strips the concept down to its core ideas.

 

Also, unlike Demons, there are a lot of shortcuts to unlock and the level design is kinda brilliant in how everything is interconnected, so you never really need to backtrack all that much once you get familiar with the layout. And like in Rogue Legacy, the more you level up the easier everything gets. By the end of my first run, I'm usually powerful enough to blast through half the game on NG+ in just a few hours.

 

The one major difference is that you lose your souls upon death whereas in Rogue Legacy your get to keep your gold. But you do lose anything you don't (or can't) spend when you reenter the castle, so it's not like that's drastically different either. I've had a lot of "wasted" runs in RL because I died and didn't have enough gold to buy any upgrades. I don't really see how that's different to losing your souls. It actually seems a bit less forgiving, even.

 

Overall, I find Dark to be significantly better than Demons but that's not something everyone agrees on. So, I hesitate to say you should give Dark a try considering how much you hated Demons but it's definitely possible you'd enjoy it more.

Edited April 30, 2015 by FLD

[Mister Jack]

Maybe if it ever shows up on PS+.

[TheMightyEthan]

Would someone like me, with the issues I've expressed with Dark Souls, potentially be interested in Bloodborne?

 

This is one of those things that everyone makes such a big deal about that I feel like I'm missing out, kinda like how I felt about Persona before P4G consumed me.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

By backtracking I meant going back for souls, or the run back to bosses. You call it simpler, I call it easier. And while you may not need to farm, you certainly need to if you want to have healing items post boss fight (win or lose). Or maybe that's another one of those obtuse things. This is, of course, speaking from the perspective of someone who isn't on their fifth new game plus and knows all the proper strategies.

 

Ethan: Doesn't address all of my issues with the game, but it's a good start.

 

 

I actually was planning on playing Dark Souls recently. Got my controller set up and everything. But with The Witcher 3 coming so soon I decided against it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Saturnine Tenshi

[CorgiShinobi]

The only thing you'll be losing in Bloodborne is Blood Echos (a.k.a. Souls) and any finite items like Blood Vials and Quicksilver Bullets. So your health recovery item and firearm ammo. It's fast paced and you'll be able to recover health if you counter hit enemies.

 

I mean, this is where renting comes in handy because my only complaints are that you'll probably have to blood vial farm for 10 minutes after a boss fight and some enemies can be brutal. However, this game doesn't have nearly as much vague material as the prior games. Your stats are condensed to where you won't be confused other than understanding Strength versus Skill. For those, some weapons are for Strength and some are for Skill. 

[toxicitizen]

Would someone like me, with the issues I've expressed with Dark Souls, potentially be interested in Bloodborne?

 

This is one of those things that everyone makes such a big deal about that I feel like I'm missing out, kinda like how I felt about Persona before P4G consumed me.

I haven't played Bloodborne so make of that what you will. But literally every single thing I've seen or heard about it makes it look pretty much identical to the Souls games.So, it made little to no sense to me when people that disliked Dark Souls were excited for and now claim to enjoy Bloodborne. Kinda makes it sound like they went into Dark Souls looking for reasons to hate it or just weren't willing to give it a proper shot. Or maybe that's just the power a console exclusive has over fanboys. I dunno, I seriously don't get it.

[toxicitizen]

By backtracking I meant going back for souls, or the run back to bosses.

Oh, the same issue Ethan has then. I wouldn't really call it backtracking and I personally don't see what the big deal is but okay. I mean, I kinda get it. It's just something you really need to get over if you're ever going to enjoy the game.

 

You call it simpler, I call it easier.

Having played both, I gotta disagree here. I don't think Dark Souls is particularly harder than Rogue Legacy. Obviously the skill set required going from a 3D action RPG to a 2D side-scroller is completely different. But they're actually both very similar in terms of difficulty curve. Like I said before, Dark Souls really isn't that hard. Especially not after this long with all the wikis out there.

 

Pro tip: early on, upgrading your gear is more important than leveling up your stats. And if you want to turn on "easy mode", go for a dex build and upgrade a weapon that scales well with dex.

 

And while you may not need to farm, you certainly need to if you want to have healing items post boss fight (win or lose). Or maybe that's another one of those obtuse things. This is, of course, speaking from the perspective of someone who isn't on their fifth new game plus and knows all the proper strategies.

Oh right, you haven't played Dark. Yeah, I'll grant you that one. Dark Souls actually fixes that with the Estus Flask. It's an healing item you get early on that starts with five charges and gets refilled every time you rest at a bonfire. You can upgrade both how much health it restores and how many charges it holds (up to 20).

[Baconrath]

Still miffed about the first time I died in DS2 it turned me into a booger zombie and robbed me of my mustache 

[Mr. GOH!]

Re: Bloodborne vs. Souls games. A major difference worth noting directly is that Bloodborne lacks the "Hollowing" mechanic and the decreased max health every time you die. I feel like a lot of players strongly disliked that part of the Souls game since it felt like unnecessary punishment for dying.

[CorgiShinobi]

Technically Dark Souls 2 had the slowly decreasing health until 50% mechanic, a.k.a. Hollowing, but it was easily resolved if you used a Human Effigy. In Dark Souls there was Humanity, but that was much easier lost, but only necessary in given moments.

 

Like the above video stated, Dark Souls was vague (if not obtuse) with stats and items. While there are players who enjoy researching a game outside of said game, it shouldn't be expected as a universal trait. Hell, even getting to the DLC content was a process that could easily been missed if you didn't follow "Step 1 to Step 5."

 

Bloodborne, you die once, are given your essential weapons and given your task. Walk around, fight and eventually you'll come to one of two bosses. It all unfolds from there and you'll be hardly backtracking to old areas to progress. Rather you might find yourself back at those areas from other paths.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

FLD: Well, it was certainly more difficult for me. Much less forgiving, too. Seemed that way anyway. I don't know if it had anything to do with Rogue Legacy having tighter controls or being less murky or whatever.

 

Amusing what you mention about dex, though: I invested heavily in dex and discovered I'd wasted it. I guess I didn't know how to use it properly or something. But I couldn't do much damage, and there were the points (bosses notwithstanding) where not fighting monsters proved damn near impossible.

 

I've heard Dark Souls improves on some of my issues. With the addition bonfires, for example, which is why I've been meaning to at least give it a try. So you're probably right there. At least to a point.

[toxicitizen]

Re: Bloodborne vs. Souls games. A major difference worth noting directly is that Bloodborne lacks the "Hollowing" mechanic and the decreased max health every time you die. I feel like a lot of players strongly disliked that part of the Souls game since it felt like unnecessary punishment for dying.

Dark Souls doesn't have a health penalty, though. There's nothing stopping you from just staying in hollow form all the time, it even allows you to "opt out" of getting invaded. That's something they actually felt the need to rectify in DS2. They also brought back the health penalty for death and nerfed the Estus Flask. Ultimately, it ends up making very little difference all things considered but it was a big source of frustration for me early in my first run.

 

FLD: Well, it was certainly more difficult for me. Much less forgiving, too. Seemed that way anyway. I don't know if it had anything to do with Rogue Legacy having tighter controls or being less murky or whatever.

 

Amusing what you mention about dex, though: I invested heavily in dex and discovered I'd wasted it. I guess I didn't know how to use it properly or something. But I couldn't do much damage, and there were the points (bosses notwithstanding) where not fighting monsters proved damn near impossible.

 

I've heard Dark Souls improves on some of my issues. With the addition bonfires, for example, which is why I've been meaning to at least give it a try. So you're probably right there. At least to a point.

Keep in mind most of what I say is meant to be about Dark Souls, not Demons. It's been way too long since I played Demons for me to really comment on it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by FLD

[Thursday Next]

One of my early frustrations with Bloodborne was that you don't get your first Insight until you meet the first boss (or find a madman's skull). Having to go through so much of the game without even opening up the most basic levelling did leave me feeling like I was making no progress.

 

I think 1 Insight (to activate the doll) should have been available somewhere more accessible, maybe a messenger in the hunter's dream offering up a skull or some such? Once you are able to start levelling you get the feeling of progress, even if it isn't all that impactful, which will keep you playing until the real game changer (you gittin gud) happens.

[Mr. GOH!]

I completely forgot that the health mechanic was DS2 only. Huh.

[TheMightyEthan]

Watched the video, and based on that and what you guys have said it sounds like I still wouldn't like it.  Too bad.