What are you currently playing?

[SomTervo]

I'm fine with hard games if it at least feels like you're making some kind of progress while you're constantly getting killed.  Binding of Isaac is one of my favorite games and it starts out hard as balls.  However, you're frequently unlocking new rooms or challenges while you play, so when you die it rarely feels like wasted time.  That whole soul dropping mechanic can go fuck itself right in the ass, though. The first time I played Demon's Souls, I lost three hours worth of progress because I couldn't get back to my body one time, and it was then that I decided I wasn't having fun anymore and decided to stop.  It took me years to pick the game back up again.

 

This is almost a misinterpretation. In the Souls games you need to change how you think about progress, because almost every mechanic is transient.

 

1. The only true progress is in your mind (how well you know your moves, how well you know enemy moves, how well you know the level's tricks - how experienced you are)

2. The only other decent markers for progress are picking up items (getting items is permanent progress as your inventory and weapon upgrades are always saved as-is) and save points (lanterns/bonfires) - but even these are more transient than your mental progress.

3. Currency, enemies, and progression through the level is not progress in a Souls game (unless it's a boss enemy or you unlock a shortcut).

 

Once you mess with your mindset to think of it this way, and you realise that you're learning more stuff every time an annoying enemy/boss kills you, death and loss of level-progress stops being annoying. Every step you take, every move you make, every corner you get past, is you learning more stuff. And the game's not unfair – if that run back to the boss seems too long, there will almost certainly be a quicker way to do it (via starting point or shortcut). Also, because levels are transient and they don't need to be beaten repeatedly, you can just run through areas once you've learned all the pitfalls, traps and enemy placements. You can usually run the entire gameworld in a few minutes.

 

When you begin to take ownership of your own skill and abilities, that's when the series shines. The frustrations just melt away.

 

Would someone like me, with the issues I've expressed with Dark Souls, potentially be interested in Bloodborne?

 

This is one of those things that everyone makes such a big deal about that I feel like I'm missing out, kinda like how I felt about Persona before P4G consumed me.

 

I think you would be, personally. For one thing, Dark Souls 2 is notoriously the worst in terms of balancing and pacing. For the other, Bloodborne is a more enjoyable experience in lots of ways than any of the other games.

 

I've hugely appreciated, but never truly enjoyed the other games in the series. I almost finished Demon's and Dark Souls, but they never really gripped me. At some point it always stopped being worth it – even if I loved the idea/ethos the developers were going for.

 

But Bloodborne... I don't know if it's the better graphics (they're amazing), the more compelling plot (still very minimal), the easier difficulty (I'm definitely having an easier time with it than I did with Dark or Demon's), or the streamlined systems (it's no longer full-blown RPG where you customise everything) – but I had no trouble at all completing it and I got serious Resident Evil 4/Silent Hill 2 vibes throughout. I felt like I was having fun the entire time – which I didn't in Demon's/Dark. It's a real classic and is far, far easier to play than the other games. It's more like a stripped down, serious Devil May Cry than Dark Souls or Demon's.

 

The improved simulation, controls and graphics have gone a long way to making the world feel really together and really immersive to experience. Just walking about is amazing 90% of the time. Unlike in the Souls games where, even though everything looked good and the art was fantastic, it was all weirdly transient and ethereal somehow. As such I'd recommend Bloodborne as a good adventure even if you disliked the earlier games.

Edited April 30, 2015 by kenshi_ryden

[TheMightyEthan]

Well then maybe I'll rent it to check it out, once I put a bigger dent in my current backlog.

[Thursday Next]

 

1. The only true progress is in your mind (how well you know your moves, how well you know enemy moves, how well you know the level's tricks - how experienced you are)

 

 

 

This is so true. While your stats and weapons do give you an edge as you level up, you are still just as liable to get ganked by a gang of low level mobs at the end of the game as the start. The real difference is that you learn optimal timing and position and you get better every time you die.

 

Sometimes, you even die on purpose, you sprint through a section to grab an item, or open a shortcut, knowing that you are kiting a bunch of mobs who are going to wipe you out, but it's cool because you respawn with the item or with the shortcut activated, knowing that next time round you can bypass all the enemies who just eviscerated you.

[TheMightyEthan]

Sometimes, you even die on purpose, you sprint through a section to grab an item, or open a shortcut, knowing that you are kiting a bunch of mobs who are going to wipe you out, but it's cool because you respawn with the item or with the shortcut activated, knowing that next time round you can bypass all the enemies who just eviscerated you.

But in that kind of situation, because the item or shortcut remains, you still had tangible in-game progress. I'm fine with death in that kind of situation, a calculated death that accomplishes something.  It's when the death requires me to redo something tedious, especially when you're expected to die multiple times in the same place.  If I can just run past all those enemies to get back to the boss, why even put me that far back?  Why not just put me right outside the boss room?  Having to run past them isn't challenging, it's tedious.  I play games to enjoy them, not to redo boring things multiple times.

 

Not trying to say that they're bad games or that people are wrong for liking them, just I feel like a lot of people act like if you don't like them it's just because you're a pussy who can't bear failure.  Not that you're doing that.

[Thursday Next]

Gotcha. Yeah, I guess activating the spawn in the boss room (I think every boss I've defeated thus far has resulted in a spawn location) would be nice. It would save having to dash/creep to a boss each time you die.

 

For me it's a minor niggle at this point as you almost always open up a decent shortcut. But it can be annoying if you get turned around when trying to run to a boss.

[SomTervo]

 

Sometimes, you even die on purpose, you sprint through a section to grab an item, or open a shortcut, knowing that you are kiting a bunch of mobs who are going to wipe you out, but it's cool because you respawn with the item or with the shortcut activated, knowing that next time round you can bypass all the enemies who just eviscerated you.

But in that kind of situation, because the item or shortcut remains, you still had tangible in-game progress. I'm fine with death in that kind of situation, a calculated death that accomplishes something.  It's when the death requires me to redo something tedious, especially when you're expected to die multiple times in the same place.  If I can just run past all those enemies to get back to the boss, why even put me that far back?  Why not just put me right outside the boss room?  Having to run past them isn't challenging, it's tedious.  I play games to enjoy them, not to redo boring things multiple times.

 

Not trying to say that they're bad games or that people are wrong for liking them, just I feel like a lot of people act like if you don't like them it's just because you're a pussy who can't bear failure.  Not that you're doing that.

 

 

I think this is intentional and is designed to make you think more. If they made you spawn right back at the boss, you'd be able to just keep bashing your head off it until you beat it by luck, using brute force to get your way with it. Naturally you would get better too, but they place you back at a lantern/bonfire to make you really consider your actions.

 

So it's a 45-second run to get back to the boss, where there's a decent chance you'll die again. Are you prepared enough to fight this boss? Are you good enough yet? Have you worked out a strategy? Would it benefit you to turn and try another direction, explore another area to get your skills and equipment better before you try it again? I know I've had this thought process before and that it's made me better at the game.

 

Most of the game's design decisions are there to encourage you to consider your decisions more carefully. If you've really thought-out a boss, your approach to it, and your equipment, it shouldn't be too difficult to overcome it first try (although obviously it helps to have encountered it once or twice to figure this out). That's why Youtube streamers like Yoshichan are so amazing - these guys see a boss for the first time, but do all their analysis and planning on the spot. They usually beat bosses in one go. It's the sort of series where this is totally doable. You have to play smart rather than play repeatedly.

 

Also these games aren't linear even though they seem that way. Whenever something's a hassle – a boss or the run to a boss – it's always good to go try another way you've noticed but never explored. The deeper you delve into the level design, the more you'll uncover. Often they put massive progression points in the most incongruous, random of corners. A friend of mine missed a huge, key area of Bloodborne for ages because he assumed a narrow, random alley was a dead end. It was a revelation when he found out what's down there. (I believe Dark Souls 2 is an exception to all of this. I've heard very bad things about the vanilla game's level design and pacing – and the flawless level design and pacing is what makes DeS/DaS/BB masterpiece-level works.)

 

Edit: Anecdotally, last night I was having huge trouble on a mid-game boss which I beat easily in my first playthrough. First playthrough probably 3-4 tries, second playthrough I'm on try 7 and still not beat him.

 

The only difference? I properly sprinted past all the enemies and got to the boss after being beaten each time in about 20-30 seconds, and I've done this repeatedly. I wasn't thinking about my strategy, I thought briefly about improving my tactics and weaponry, but wanted to rush through because I didn't have much time last night. It was a mistake, and this isn't how the game should be played, and the game is reminding you of that by bumping you back to a lantern every time you die. I finished the night by doing a runthrough of a couple of other areas, levelling my character and weapons up a bit to give me a new edge and refresh my approach.

Edited April 30, 2015 by kenshi_ryden

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I don't think that it's a certified good design choice just because you can conjure up some justification. And 45 seconds? Man. Maybe if you're pro. There's also the issue that, yeah, it may make you think more, but when you're dying almost instantly there isn't much experience to be gleaned. Just sort of: Oh, ho! I'm dead! Time to run back again! Some bosses are more forgiving than others in that respect, though.

 

Don't mean to say the game is bad, or people are bad for liking it how it is, but I do think people really go out of their way to make things like seem much more clever than they actually are (if at all).

Edited April 30, 2015 by Saturnine Tenshi

[toxicitizen]

I don't think that it's a certified good design choice just because you can conjure up some justification. And 45 seconds? Man. Maybe if you're pro. There's also the issue that, yeah, it may make you think more, but when you're dying almost instantly there isn't much experience to be gleaned. Just sort of: Oh, ho! I'm dead! Time to run back again! Some bosses are more forgiving than others in that respect, though.

If you're dying instantly, then you're simply not learning from your mistakes. Which is when these games are at their most punishing because yeah, you're essentially banging your head against a wall. That's not the way to play them.

 

Also, Kenshi is right. Most enemies can easily be run past (and won't follow you very far). Running back to a boss can usually be done in a minute or two at most if you've already explored the area properly.

 

Don't mean to say the game is bad, or people are bad for liking it how it is, but I do think people really go out of their way to make things like seem much more clever than they actually are (if at all).

On the flipside, just because you can't appreciate how well designed these games are doesn't mean that people that do are exaggerating or wrong.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I don't know. I just feel like I never belonged to the right coven or something, 'cause that was hardly ever the case with me. I guess I just sucked.

 

And I agree about it not being exaggerated or wrong if you're going by opinion. Just stating mine.

 

BESIDES YOU CAN'T APPRECIATE MY 2D WAIFUS!

Edited April 30, 2015 by Saturnine Tenshi

[TheMightyEthan]

And I'm not trying to say the games are bad, or badly designed, or that people are wrong for liking them, or anything like that.  I'm just trying to explain what I don't like about them clearly enough for people who do like them to be able to say "Yeah, I can understand why you might not like that," without acting like I'm wrong for not liking them, or that I want all games to be super easy baby games or something.

 

Again though, that's not really a thing people on here do, just kind of the general feeling around discussion of the game in general.

 

Anyway, in my specific situation (I checked and it was Dark Souls 1), it was after the third time I died to the boss and felt no more enlightened about how I was supposed to approach it than I had the first time I tried, and was faced with making the boring run back to it, that I got frustrated and quit.  That was just the trigger though, than the actual cause.  Another issue was that up to that point I hadn't particularly enjoyed anything I'd done either.  Like, it wasn't that I had thought it was especially bad, it was more that it just didn't feel especially enjoyable either, so there wasn't really anything drawing me to the game strongly enough to overcome the frustration.

[MetalCaveman]

Sometimes I feel like I've been playing the Souls games (and Bloodborne) the wrong way, I don't really stop to think about strategies or equipment or anything, I just go and buy/find the biggest weapon available, pump points into strength and vitality and smash everything that gets in the way. It's worked for me so far. Except for Demon's Souls, I just used magic in that game since it was the most overpowered thing ever.

 

I do like the fact that Bloodborne provides many shortcuts that allow you to skip most of the area and just head straight to the boss, but I would still like to see some item/feature that allowed you to spawn right before a boos fight so you didn't waste time running around.

 

Dark Souls 2 had that thing were enemies would stop spawning after killing them a bunch of times, so even if you died, as long as you killed at least one of them, you were closer to making them extinct, which would make progress through that area way easier than having everything re-spawn after every death.

[deanb]

OH MY GOD IT'S SPREADING LIKE A DISEASE!!!

[Thursday Next]

Are we supposed to be using sticky out tongue smilies at the end of every sentence? I agree with Ethan to an extent, I don't think that spawning at the boss would be a BadThing™. It was a design choice. It's one that I can live with, but I get that some may find it a punishment too far.

 

Personally, I'm finding that this game draws me in even when frustrating me. I large part due to the fact that it has such a coherent design aesthetic. Different areas are clearly identifiable, but still feel part of the same world, at least so far.

[Mister Jack]

THAT'S IT, I'M GETTING IN ON THIS TONGUE ACTION.

 

[SomTervo]

And I'm not trying to say the games are bad, or badly designed, or that people are wrong for liking them, or anything like that.  I'm just trying to explain what I don't like about them clearly enough for people who do like them to be able to say "Yeah, I can understand why you might not like that," without acting like I'm wrong for not liking them, or that I want all games to be super easy baby games or something.

 

Again though, that's not really a thing people on here do, just kind of the general feeling around discussion of the game in general.

 

Anyway, in my specific situation (I checked and it was Dark Souls 1), it was after the third time I died to the boss and felt no more enlightened about how I was supposed to approach it than I had the first time I tried, and was faced with making the boring run back to it, that I got frustrated and quit.  That was just the trigger though, than the actual cause.  Another issue was that up to that point I hadn't particularly enjoyed anything I'd done either.  Like, it wasn't that I had thought it was especially bad, it was more that it just didn't feel especially enjoyable either, so there wasn't really anything drawing me to the game strongly enough to overcome the frustration.

 

Yeah, sorry MEth, I didn't mean to... for lack of a better word, 'mainsplain' at you about it. I guess I didn't put my thoughts across very clearly. Waffle o'clock.

 

A more concise way of saying what I meant is that: the game is designed that way because when you ultimately overcome the idiosyncrasies and challenging design aspects, the sense of accomplishment and fun you get for it is through the roof. By the end, you're thriving on, addicted to the satisfaction you get from being in control of the environment. But to get to that feel you have to push through the 'fuck this shit, it's wasting my time' feeling you're talking about, which I definitely felt when I started out. I also know the 'this just isn't that fun' feeling.

 

But for me, in Bloodborne, when you push through that irritation and seemingly un-fun design, you're rewarded with a huge, amazing feeling (and sense of pure fun) which makes up for those issues tenfold. It's just like an adult Zelda or hardcore DMC. I'm still not saying you're playing it wrong or anything – you clearly played DaS quite a bit, and it's totally fair if you didn't get good vibes even after overcoming the big challenges. Anne Frankly, I didn't find DaS or DeS fun anywhere near on the level of Bloodborne.

 

Are we supposed to be using sticky out tongue smilies at the end of every sentence? I agree with Ethan to an extent, I don't think that spawning at the boss would be a BadThing™. It was a design choice. It's one that I can live with, but I get that some may find it a punishment too far.

 

Personally, I'm finding that this game draws me in even when frustrating me. I large part due to the fact that it has such a coherent design aesthetic. Different areas are clearly identifiable, but still feel part of the same world, at least so far.

 

And yeah, the 1,000x better world and graphical design makes Bloodborne a joy to walk about in even when you're frustrated as all shit by a level.

 

I just did the first lantern in the Village again. I mean, fuck that place. It's the only time (I know of) in the entire game where the only way to survive the area – which is actually really short – is to just run.

 

By the time you're halfway to the lantern, you'll already be low on health items, and then you've got an area where there are roughly 12 super-aggressive, high-damaging enemies who will all come running from three angles and swarm you, combined with a giant god-thing firing a huge, one-hit-kill laser to blow you up

 

I mean fuck that. I ran past them all on my first playthrough and I ran past them all on my second playthrough. One day I will come back super-powered and destroy them all.

[Thursday Next]

Village?

[IDDQD]

A more concise way of saying what I meant is that: the game is designed that way because when you ultimately overcome the idiosyncrasies and challenging design aspects, the sense of accomplishment and fun you get for it is through the roof. By the end, you're thriving on, addicted to the satisfaction you get from being in control of the environment. But to get to that feel you have to push through the 'fuck this shit, it's wasting my time' feeling you're talking about, which I definitely felt when I started out. I also know the 'this just isn't that fun' feeling.

Pretty much describes my relationship with this game, only the 'fuck this shit, it's wasting my time' phases come back on a regular basis, but I can't quit since I've made so much progress already. It's a difficult thing, you hate it to the bone, but love every second of it at the same time. That's some Freudian shit right there.

[SomTervo]

I think I felt the same way about Dark souls and Demon's, IDD. Which is why i never finished either.

 

Bloodborne is immediately more accessible and fun imho.

 

Village?

Not sure if you're there yet.

 

 

Yaharghul The Unseen Village. The bit between the first lantern and the second is the hardest part of the game for me.

 

I find the two giant parallel mobs of hags fucking unbeatable- the OHKO laser doesnt help

 

[Saturnine Tenshi]

GTAV. Online multiplayer is fucking irritating (the way it's structured, I mean). The game is beautiful, though. Damn near photo-realistic.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I played the first section (10 levels) of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker this very day. Had planned to try getting full marks on each level until I came across the first mine cart level. That was not great, but apart from that I like the game plenty.

 

Also playing the new Mario Kart DLC as the villager. Don't really have a set character/kart setup I stick with. They're a good bunch of tracks. Also, I was only halfway though three starring the 100CC cups so completed a couple more of those. Tend to do better with them after I've had a break and can only deal with the frustration of going from 1st to 5th 10m from the finish line after being bit by multiple successive shells for so long.

[TheMightyEthan]

Also playing the new Mario Kart DLC as the villager. Don't really have a set character/kart setup I stick with.

Link, Eponacycle, Triforce tires, and Triforce glider, obvs.

[TheFlyingGerbil]

I did just unlock the prancer car and if it wasn't heavy I would be totally into that. I can't do heavy as I spend too much time in the rough. I usually use the one that looks like a teddy bear and yoshi, or Rosalina rocking leathers on a motor bike. 

 

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm not sure what it is about the Eponacycle, but I love it. Until that one came out I couldn't stand the motorcycles.

[IDDQD]

In between my Elite Dangerous sessions I'm trying to finish Dragon Age 1&2 because I finally got my hands on Inquisition. Really bad timing for that, by the way, with Witcher 3 on the way and all that. God I wish I could go back to grammar school and have as much free time as I had then...

 

So anyway, I think this is another case when my previous feelings about a game inexplicably changed 180 degrees over the years. First time around I couldn't stand Origins and liked DA2 more, while now I feel like the secong game is an incredibly shallow experience compared to the epic storyline and sheer depth of gameplay in Origins.

Edited May 9, 2015 by IDDQD

[TheMightyEthan]

It sounds like you evolved from a crazy person into a sensible one.