LGBT

[Thursday Next]

So, here is what I don't get:  Why are we creating more labels for people?

 

Quote:  It Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said "If you label me, you negate me"?  - Wayne's World

 

To me, labeling is more aligned with segregation and the mentality of 'This sides mine and that sides yours and don't ever come 'round here again.'.  I personally despise this line of thinking, especially after living in the South for one year.

 

The difference is that some labels are self applied to help someone understand that you are different and have different needs. "If *you* label me" not "If *I* label me"

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but what about the term "cisgender"?

[TheMightyEthan]

Cisgender is to provide an opposite for transgender other than "normal".  If it's "I'm not transgender, I'm normal" then it implies a value judgement against being trans, so by using the term cis you avoid that.

 

Why I came in here:

 

I can't decide if the Fullbright Company pulling out of PAX is an overreaction or not.  My gut reaction is that it is, that while he said some insensitive things it's not like he said anything just atrocious.  But then another part of me thinks what if he had made equally dismissive comments about race or some other issue?

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Yeah, I figured that much from reading the rest of the thread. Though I have already seen some hateful use of the term. I'll just attribute that to people being people.

 

And the Dickwolves thing was just ridiculous. I can see getting upset over the transgender thing. But it's made pretty evident by what he said in response to the tweets, and how those responses are taken, that people just wanted to be upset with him for not agreeing with their backwards view of things. For instance, the reference used by Fullbright: 

 

 

 

First there was the entire “Dickwolves” debacle, during which Mike said that it “felt pretty good” to “support rape culture.”

 

• When asked on Twitter by @bloodparade “How does it feel to be actively encouraging rape culture, pal?” Mike responds:

He's obviously just being snarky there. I would be, too, after everything that happened. People sometimes forget that people are, in fact, people. He should probably control his public image better if he doesn't want to deal with the shit, but I don't think that makes him a bad person. Especially not because of some of the other things listed there. I'd cover them here, but this is the LGBT thread, after all.

[TheMightyEthan]

Oh, I agree the dickwolves thing was blown WAY out of proportion.  From that "objection" to the dickwolves comic:

 

 

 

But unlike Gabe killing Tycho so he doesn't have to share a video game, a slave being raped is a real thing that happens in the world every day.

 

Right, no one ever murders anyone, and it's certainly not like we hear several times a year of someone specifically murdering someone else over a videogame.  Granted that isn't as common as rape, but it's really arbitrary to say "this horrible violent crime is okay to joke about, but this other one isn't."

[deanb]

Eh, the Fullbright thing seems a trends and triggers thing. If it was just over Mikes actions yesterday then be way over reaction. But given things that've cropped up over the years.

 

The problem with the PA guys isn't so much they're doing and saying what they are, it's that not only are they seemingly unwilling to take folks points on board and review their stance on things, it's that they, specifically Mike, come off as being proud of the stance and refusing to step in others shoes. Even when a past colleague steps in. Which is why the Dickwolves thing became such a big sticking point. It wasn't so much the initial joke, it was the PA guys really terribly handled reaction afterwards. The whole event would have been quickly forgotten otherwise.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Or they weren't wrong to begin with, and were right in standing firm as long as they did.

[TheMightyEthan]

Even if you're right there's such a thing as not being a dick about it, especially with such sensitive topics.

[Mister Jack]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly

 

I feel like this whole thing got blown way out of proportion.  Transgender issues are an even bigger minefield than homosexuality, and in my experience it's almost impossible to insult a trans person who is acting like a twat without being accused of hating all trans people.

[Alex Heat]

My stance on trans people is 'I acknowledge and respect your desire for your identity to be whatever fucking gender you want to be/think you are/whatever, but demanding everyone navigate the Labyrinth you've constructed around simply saying hello to someone or conversing with them' is completely ridiculous.

 

I also agree that I can't take someone seriously if they say 'cis' or feminism' to me.

[Waldorf and Statler]

Sorry but at least from what I'm getting of the story I can't disagree with the PA guy. Admittedly this isn't the whole story so who knows what else he said when he was acting like an asshole but I can't fully disagree with the original intent of the message

[Vecha]

Wow...I'm totally lost.

Last I checked...there are no "Trans" parts....you identify as a male/female. And,yes, I understand that is your "Gender"....so, if a game focuses on "female" masterbation...isn't it obvious it'll be talking about vaginal masturbation? And why is that bad?

Should the game have been called "Vagina" masturbation?

I suppose I should keep my mouth shut as well since I'm a white "cis" male.  

I'll reopen it in the year 2040-2050 when I'm in the minority for the "first" time in "ever." 

[Mister Jack]

Well, the tweet he responded to that made him say "if you use the word cis don't bother tweeting me" was something like "cis males make me fucking sick."  It was either that or "I fucking hate cis males."  I forget which one.  Anyway, while he could have probably phrased a better retort to that (or not replied at all), I really think that comment he replied to was fucking retarded.  It's like if a gay person said they "hate all those filthy breeders."  Grow up and start thinking about the world outside your own purview.

[deanb]

Cis is to trans what straight is to gay. It's but one word, not a labyrinth, and I'm sure many folks have no trouble comprehending straight and gay or trouble using the terms.

 

His conclusion of:

 

 

 I’m not qualified to talk about the ambiguity of sexuality and frankly I don’t give a shit about it. I like drawing comics and playing video games. I’ll keep my mouth shut when it comes to all the other stuff.

is pretty much a guarantee it'll happen again. He's only needs to give a minor bit of a fuck, not storm to whitehouse demanding minority rights left right n centre. Just to.. well as Misterjack says "grow up and think about the world outside your own purview"

 

The "cis males make me sick" response to his tweets was out of order, though without his original posts it would never have come. I don't think he's a bigot, but as a dude that's half of the face of one of the largest organisations in gaming he's so socially unaware it's not funny.

 

edit: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gay

Edited June 22, 2013 by Deanb
to add the link.

[TheMightyEthan]

The problem with the situation isn't necessarily what started it, it's the way he became a complete asshole about it.  Yes, some of the responses were out of line (death threats are never an appropriate response), but it's not the appropriate response when people overreact to your comments to then get even more bigoted in them.  If you accidentally and unknowingly said something offensive about another race, and people started telling you to go die, the solution is not to become more racist.

 

Not to say context is irrelevant, and if what he says is true it does make him seem less bad in the whole situation.  It also makes the Fullbright Company thing even more of an overreaction.

[Pojodin]

Well, it goes both ways. /terrible pun. I could be wrong, but it seems that he made a statement that, when taken out of context (as it seemingly was), makes it seem worse than was intended. The people that refused to even try to understand the context of his statement went on a rampage against him, going so far as to send him death threats (i.e. being complete assholes about it). The fact that he went on the defensive when he was attacked shouldn't be surprising. While his defense went overboard and he should have handled the situation differently, the reason behind his actions aren't unwarranted. This whole situation could probably have been easily averted had someone merely asked for clarification about his original tweet instead of being "complete assholes" about it.

[deanb]

He made statements that in context were kinda bad. However when this was pointed out his reaction wasn't "oh my bad, I'll know for next time" it was just to further ram home his beliefs on women having vaginas. Also most responses to his were reasonable, though increasingly less so as his offensive (he didn't go on the defensive), ramped up too. The email from Sophie was a long-form version of most of the responses he received, well reasoned responses that what he's saying is troublesome and also an expectation he might know better. Though it's obviously easier to justify his actions when he highlight the few "cis male garbage" ones that pop through.

[Vecha]

He made statements that in context were kinda bad. However when this was pointed out his reaction wasn't "oh my bad, I'll know for next time" it was just to further ram home his beliefs on women having vaginas. Also most responses to his were reasonable, though increasingly less so as his offensive (he didn't go on the defensive), ramped up too. The email from Sophie was a long-form version of most of the responses he received, well reasoned responses that what he's saying is troublesome and also an expectation he might know better. Though it's obviously easier to justify his actions when he highlight the few "cis male garbage" ones that pop through.

 

He also claims to be self-aware that he can be an "asshole."

 

 

Momma always said...self-awareness is only the first step.

[Pojodin]

He made statements that in context were kinda bad. However when this was pointed out his reaction wasn't "oh my bad, I'll know for next time" it was just to further ram home his beliefs on women having vaginas. Also most responses to his were reasonable, though increasingly less so as his offensive (he didn't go on the defensive), ramped up too. The email from Sophie was a long-form version of most of the responses he received, well reasoned responses that what he's saying is troublesome and also an expectation he might know better. Though it's obviously easier to justify his actions when he highlight the few "cis male garbage" ones that pop through.

Ah, well when you put things in that order it certainly changes things. I misunderstood the situation as I thought he was attcked for his initial statement. It probably would have been best to not post anything on twitter to begin with, but he really should have just stopped at his first tweet. This really seems to fall in the category of if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[TheMightyEthan]

This really seems to fall in the category of if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

The world would be so much better if more people would live this way.

[Mister Jack]

So here's something interesting I happened to notice on youtube.

 

http://youtu.be/QET4LliFSaA

 

That's a new cartoon coming to the Hub.  In case the premise went over your head, it's about a boy who finds a ring that turns its wearer into a superhero, but the ring was meant to be worn only by girls so whenever he uses it he ends up with girl clothes and hair.  

 

I'm sure I don't have to tell you why this is generating discussion.  On one side you have people saying it's a potentially progressive show that could make kids more open-minded toward transgender people and on the other side you have people saying it's trying to MAKE kids transgender.  Whatever you believe, you can't deny that they're being pretty ballsy to even attempt a show like this with kids as their demographic.  I really have no idea if the show is even any good or not, but I'm curious about what kind of attitude it actually takes toward cross-dressing.

[Vecha]

Makes me think of Ranma 1/2.


 

[TheMightyEthan]

The idea that that is an attempt to make kids transgender, or that that is even a possible result, is patently ridiculous.

[Mister Jack]

Well you know how the fundamentalists get when they don't understand something.  They're not exactly a group that I hold much...well, ANY respect for.

[TheRevanchist]

Speaking of kids being transgender, this is an interesting one:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/24/us-usa-education-transgender-idUSBRE95N04Y20130624

 

My six year old needs to be reminded to shit in the toilet, not in his Skylanders underwear. This is just perplexing to me.