Gaming Tropes That Need to GO

[King Jimmeh]

I hope turn-based RPGs don't die. I prefer them to wannabe MMOs like FFXII.

[AgamemnonV2]

2D side scrollers are just as old if not older. Sports just as much too.

Up to now that's the only argument I'm hearing against TB-RPGs is they're an old genre. Pretty silly reason if you ask me.

That's not nearly the same thing that I'm talking about. You had, what, six or seven plays to make in sports games twenty years ago? The moves and gameplay has changed since then. When I talk about ATB, I'm talking about what ever guy decided little scrolling blue timer bars and the "ATTACK MAGIC ITEM" menu system was all that needed to be done for JRPGs. THAT hasn't changed in thirty years. Where would we be if every NA RPG had Baldur's Gate UI and gameplay still?

[Cyber Rat]

Anyway, yeah, I was surprised when he made the chart, considering he's such a huge Bioware fan. I loved it when Bioware's writer got flustered when he saw it and felt the need to defend his recycled writing.

 

Could you supply a link for that?

[deanb]

Just to throw this out there but FFXII, a JRPG, and DA:O, a WRPG, use almost exactly the same battle system (just one with a menu system that says "Attack/magic/item" and one with a menu system that's 1-10)

And I strongly suggest playing FFI the original release then playing FFI the PSP/iPhone release. It's a few minor differences but the battle system is different even with one game ported.

I'm not even a TBS whore like Saturnine, mostly limited to Square n Atlus games, and there's a fair variety within the few I've played.

 

Anyway, what about 2D platformers?

[AgamemnonV2]

Anyway, yeah, I was surprised when he made the chart, considering he's such a huge Bioware fan. I loved it when Bioware's writer got flustered when he saw it and felt the need to defend his recycled writing.

 

Could you supply a link for that?

http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Hellforge/Bioware-RPG-Cliche-Chart

 

Patrick Weekes flips out.

 

Just to throw this out there but FFXII, a JRPG, and DA:O, a WRPG, use almost exactly the same battle system (just one with a menu system that says "Attack/magic/item" and one with a menu system that's 1-10)

That's not nearly the same thing and you absolutely know it. That's like saying Mario and Call of Duty are practically the same because they both have a jump function.

 

Anyway, what about 2D platformers?

I'll punch a baby seal if I see one priced at $50, but I certainly don't expect it to make head waves.

[deanb]

No it's like saying COD n BF are the same with different HUDs.

They both use macros, they both have timers on the attacks, you control one character while the rest auto-attack following the macros. All it takes is to spread FFXII's options across the bottom of the screen or to group Dragon Ages into menus. FFXII does have those limit break QTE moves every now n then which DA doesn't have. I've not played XII for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure it has AoE attacks too.

 

They're both good games still. Great minds think alike n all that.

[Yantelope]

2D side scrollers are just as old if not older. Sports just as much too.

Up to now that's the only argument I'm hearing against TB-RPGs is they're an old genre. Pretty silly reason if you ask me.

That's not nearly the same thing that I'm talking about. You had, what, six or seven plays to make in sports games twenty years ago? The moves and gameplay has changed since then. When I talk about ATB, I'm talking about what ever guy decided little scrolling blue timer bars and the "ATTACK MAGIC ITEM" menu system was all that needed to be done for JRPGs. THAT hasn't changed in thirty years. Where would we be if every NA RPG had Baldur's Gate UI and gameplay still?

 

This.

[P4: Gritty Reboot]

Nintendo gets a pass because they make children's games and kids are relatively uncritical and shovelware-tolerant, whether they're actual children or childlike adult Ninty fans. It's like panning Dora the Explorer or Blue's Clues for lacking complex narratives; those shows, like Nintendo games, are made for people whose brains are still growing. They're not for mature adults who have fully come into their mental faculties.

 

I could have read this without looking at your name and known it was you, GOH. Classic.

 

Anyway, simple =/= childish.

[AgamemnonV2]

No it's like saying COD n BF are the same with different HUDs.

They both use macros, they both have timers on the attacks, you control one character while the rest auto-attack following the macros. All it takes is to spread FFXII's options across the bottom of the screen or to group Dragon Ages into menus. FFXII does have those limit break QTE moves every now n then which DA doesn't have. I've not played XII for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure it has AoE attacks too.

 

They're both good games still. Great minds think alike n all that.

Now I just think you're being purposely obtuse.

 

Does FFXII have an inventory system that allows you to equip multiple pieces of armor?

 

Does FFXII have a persistent world where all action is real-time, i.e. no "random encounters"?

 

Does FFXII have directional combat, traps, and an open battlefield for its battles?

 

Does FFXII have a way to conduct simple combat without inputting commands?

 

So please, until FFXII is ACTUALLY as identical to DA:O as FPS clone is to another FPS clone, then don't try to insult my intelligence.

Edited April 11, 2011 by AgamemnonV2

[deanb]

Does FFXII have an inventory system that allows you to equip multiple pieces of armor?

Yes

 

Does FFXII have a persistent world where all action is real-time, i.e. no "random encounters"?

Yes, which even asking that makes me think you've not played it. You know from FFXI onwards no FF game has had random encounters. Most JRPG's have kind of done away with that.

 

Does FFXII have directional combat, traps, and an open battlefield for its battles?

Yes, yes, and by open battlefield I mean as in can I run away to the next area mid-battle? yep.

 

Does FFXII have a way to conduct simple combat without inputting commands?

as in just attack, attack, attack. Yep. It actually got hated on for that.

 

So please, until FFXII is ACTUALLY as identical to DA:O as FPS clone is to another FPS clone, then don't try to insult my intelligence.

Please, play the game. You wouldn't have to ask these questions if you had

[AgamemnonV2]

I don't own a console, so that's not happening. And explain this screenshot to me: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/270/459841_20060928_screen015.jpg

 

In regards to multiple pieces of armor. I didn't mean one piece of armor and an accessory. And you of course knew that, so which pretty much tells me you're still just trying to sell crazy to me. I'm sorry, I'm not buying.

[Mr. GOH!]

Yes, there was the concept of setting up simple combat scripts through a "tactics" menu in both DA:O and FFXII. But the combat feels way different in both. Maybe not on console, but if you played DA:O on console, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but being a drooling console dudebro ain't one.

[MasterDex]

I don't own a console, so that's not happening. And explain this screenshot to me: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/270/459841_20060928_screen015.jpg

 

In regards to multiple pieces of armor. I didn't mean one piece of armor and an accessory. And you of course knew that, so which pretty much tells me you're still just trying to sell crazy to me. I'm sorry, I'm not buying.

 

FFXII has more than one piece of armour and an accessory. You've got your Weapon-hand, Off-hand, Helm, Armour and Accessory. It's not quite what can be found in DA:O and older WRPGs but it's certainly not largely inferior. Reading your comments, it's almost as if you won't be satisfied until you find something that you can clearly demonstrate that JRPGs are inferior to WRPGs.

 

Personally, I see them as two different styles of RPG.

[deanb]

I'm pretty sure I put in the internet pet peeves thread my thoughts on folks who haven't played games, especially disputing stuff with people that have

In fact why is the burden of proof on me? You're the one who claimed TB RPGs not changed in 30 years and you're the one now saying you haven't played them.

 

 

As for the armour thing thought you're talking as in does it have swappable out armour(not all of them let you tweak your armour, just weapons n accessory). Even if it's only a few pieces compared to letting you stick on some gloves and a bunch of jewellery I don't see how that throws it out the window. In fact if that's a bullet point required for change then just on it's shown they do change over time.

 

It's just sounding like saying FPS games haven't changed in the 20yrs since Wolfenstien and it's still just shooting guys; ignoring regenerative health, grenades, looking up n down, headshots, how many weapons you can hold etc.

 

tl;dr: Are you a horse?

 

 

edit: Nope I didn't put it in internet pet peeves.

And I agree with masterdex, just sounds like you want a WRPG vs JRPG dispute.

[AgamemnonV2]

I didn't say I haven't played TBRPGs. : \ About the only thing that's obvious is that I haven't played FFXII. I have, however, played various Final Fantasies (including the first) and my last one was FF9 when I decided I was tired of playing the same game but with simple graphic updates. So seeing as things apparently have changed (at least better than they have beetween FF1 and FF9) I retract my previous statement: it took TWENTY years for JPRGs to change.

 

I don't get into "which is better" arguments, especially with WRPGs and JRPGs, considering I've got plenty of criticism for both, but I don't do consoles any more anyways, so that's pretty a moot point. Anyway, I don't even know what this has to do with the topic any longer. I'm generally not a fan of much of anything from Japan considering little changes in that market (Mario is still Nintendo's poster boy for "progress").

[MasterDex]

I didn't say I haven't played TBRPGs. : \ About the only thing that's obvious is that I haven't played FFXII. I have, however, played various Final Fantasies (including the first) and my last one was FF9 when I decided I was tired of playing the same game but with simple graphic updates. So seeing as things apparently have changed (at least better than they have beetween FF1 and FF9) I retract my previous statement: it took TWENTY years for JPRGs to change.

 

I don't get into "which is better" arguments, especially with WRPGs and JRPGs, considering I've got plenty of criticism for both, but I don't do consoles any more anyways, so that's pretty a moot point. Anyway, I don't even know what this has to do with the topic any longer. I'm generally not a fan of much of anything from Japan considering little changes in that market (Mario is still Nintendo's poster boy for "progress").

 

 

I don't want to derail the thread with this argument but surely you could be more balanced and fair in your criticism? You're judging JRPGs incredibly harsh here. Final Fantasy=/=Every JRPG of the last 20/30 years. Even if we were to look at just Final Fantasy, we could see a slew of changes. Take FFIII and the implementation of a job system, FFIV and it's large cast of party characters, FFVII and its host of mini-games, chocobo breeding and materia system, FFVIII and its card game, weapon creation and draw system. I could go on. Sure, they're not revolutionary changes or additions but they are changes and additions nonetheless. You can't expect the core game to change all that much because it is after all, the core game. FFXII, the first game to radically change the formula (excusing FFXI because it's an mmo), recieved a lot of flak for doing so from fans. FFXIII which brought the most radical changes in the series recieved even less praise from fans and that was with a more traditional battle system.

 

That's just Final Fantasy though and while the 'ATTACK, MAGIC, ITEM' menu is shared among many JRPGs, JRPG battle systems, even twenty years ago, were hardly all alike and so simple. You've got Star Ocean, Chrono Trigger, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Vagrant Story, Valkyrie Profile, etc, etc. They all do something different. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there's been more change in the last twenty years to the JRPG formula than there has been to the WRPG formula - until recently. You've got Oblivion and Fallout 3, commonly seen as prime examples of how awesome WRPGs can be but in the end, Oblivion may as well be Morrowwind HD and Fallout 3, a mod for it. Of course, that's simplifying each game quite a bit but not so much as you've simplified the JRPG genre and the Japanese market in general.

 

Anyway, as I stated earlier, I don't want to draw this argument out but I felt I should speak my piece before we get back on topic. From the sounds of it, you have a bias against Japanese games in general and you seem to be being stubborn in opening your eyes to some of the great (and original) games that came from Japan.

 

Back on topic, I hate the trope of gaming tropes, I hate when developers lock off the hardest difficulty. If I finish the game, the likelihood is that I won't be going to finish it again (unless it's really, really good and even then, it'll be a while before I do) so denying me a challenge I'd enjoy just to add some precieved level of replayability is just going to piss me off. That said, I'm all for New Game+ modes.

[Yantelope]

I feel slightly validated today. Even Bethesda agrees with me.

 

“There were definitely moments in Oblivion were it was a rollercoaster of pain because the world levelled faster than you.”"

 

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/

[Yantelope]

RPS has their Do's and Don'ts which remind me a bit of this thread.

 

http://www.rockpaper...ames-do-dont-4/

 

I disagree slightly with "bring back the exploration in shooters". I remember hating those days of maps in FPS games because wandering aimlessly for the blue key which opened the blue door which got you the red key for the red door was really really boring.

 

"Don’t: tell me that you’re a game any more. You want to capture something of Brechtian estrangement, break down that fourth wall with mallets and wrecking balls, because you think it’s a fresh and original approach. It’s not. It’s been done a lot, and it’s probably a sign that you’re not confident enough in your own creation. If you feel the urge to winkingly acknowledge to the player that they’re playing a game, then you need to go back to work to create a more convincing world." QFT

 

ROFL: "Don’t: leave diary entries by one person scattered over miles of corridors, buildings and countries. That’s not how a diary works. A diary tends to be all in one place. Most people, when journaling their lives, don’t tend to scribble it out on the nearest scrap of paper and then leave it wherever they wrote it. Because that would be utterly insane." Also QFT

Edited August 23, 2011 by Yantelope

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

LOL @ the second one. So fucking true.

[TheMightyEthan]

Sequels not explaining wtf happened in the games that came before. Even if I played the game before, odds are it's been a while. Forgive me if I can't remember all the details of its needlessly convoluted plot, I still don't want to be left completely lost. Even if it's just an option on the main menu to watch a video that quickly recaps what happened in the previous game, please give me something.

[deanb]

That's where I liked White Knight Chronicles II. It came with the first game included. InFamous 2 was pretty decent with explaining the first game. Of course it's not always needed. See ..Uncharted series.

[Eleven]

That's where I liked White Knight Chronicles II. It came with the first game included. InFamous 2 was pretty decent with explaining the first game. Of course it's not always needed. See ..Uncharted series.

 

Don't forget Yakuza 3 and 4. It has the complete summary of all the games before it. I watched 1 and 2 (from an in game menu, not YouTube to be clear!) and got up to speed pretty good when I started with 3 (I didn't play 1 and 2).

Edited November 12, 2011 by NotPenny'sBoat!

[Mister Jack]

Hey, Skyrim. How about actually warning me when I'm approaching an enemy that's way stronger than I am? There has to be a better way to find that out than getting hit by them.

[deanb]

That's where I liked White Knight Chronicles II. It came with the first game included. InFamous 2 was pretty decent with explaining the first game. Of course it's not always needed. See ..Uncharted series.

Don't forget Yakuza 3 and 4. It has the complete summary of all the games before it. I watched 1 and 2 (from an in game menu, not YouTube to be clear!) and got up to speed pretty good when I started with 3 (I didn't play 1 and 2).

Didn't forget, just never played them.

 

Hey, Skyrim. How about actually warning me when I'm approaching an enemy that's way stronger than I am? There has to be a better way to find that out than getting hit by them.

Most of it is in the size. Giants are the tallest and (afaik) strongest units in the game. Also specially named units tend to be stronger too. If most are called Drugar n killed in a few whacks, then you can figure Drugar Lord n Restless Drugar are gonna be a bit tougher.

[fuchikoma]

I found in GTA4, the races were quite easy... They were just a matter of bringing a sports car, not smashing it to bits on the AI drivers in the first few moments (you don't NEED to pass right away, and they WILL screw up,) then braking before corners. Before long, I'd practically (or literally) be lapping the other guys.

 

I've got a handful, since I brainstormed and figured some would be covered in the first 9 pages:

 

 

Random alternate game modes: You can't just have a pure game anymore it seems. Developers worry too much about the player getting bored, or seeking more from their game that they feel the need to shoehorn alternate modes into the middle of it. This is why we can't have a proper Starfox game anymore, where you fly, shoot, dodge, and fly some more. Or why for some reason games about running around shooting guys have to include a vehicle section or two, or a turret sequence.

 

Living cutscenes: I must be in a minority since people loved Half-Life 2 and Bioshock, but there's just about nothing I hate more than half-playing cutscenes where you get locked into a room, have your weapon disabled for you, and then you get talked at or forced to watch a scripted event. It just feels more patronizing than anything else in gaming to me. If you're going to take away my freedom to move and to act, then don't pretend I'm still playing! Just show me a movie or something, because even if I can turn the camera and hop on desks, I'm clearly not really playing! It's like driving a little kid somewhere and giving them a steering wheel toy so they can pretend they're driving. I'm not a little kid; I know I'm not really participating in the scene... Some say this is more immersive than cutscenes, but I find it more jarring than if they were to just stop the game and make you read a few pages of text. Ironically it's the attempt to hide that the game is shifting between modes that makes it stand out the most, because instead of accepting that the game has changed to a non-interactive mode, it goes into a sort of limbo where most things don't work anymore.

 

Boss fights: I'm also usually against these. There are awesome bosses out there, and some games depend on them, but in a lot of games (particularly fighters) it just feels like an excuse to cheat. It's like obviously the designers didn't want you to finish, so they make the difficulty curve go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 60. It's a cop-out, and an artifact from milking players for quarters in arcades. What's the sense in learning a system and training to thrive within its rules if you're just going to fight a guy who doesn't play by the same rules? Go ahead, walk through that solid wall. Shoot an endless stream of automatically-hitting unblockable missiles. Throw me while you're stunned and unable to move. Be super powered, super-fast, able to counter anything, AND have several times the HP of all the other guys. It's cool - your game will just end at 95% for me because I have actual FUN things to do elsewhere.

 

How about a classic trope that we've only started seeing in recent years?

 

Achievements that can only be gained through multiplayer progression/ stats.

Also, achievements you can only get by buying DLC! I played a ton of Forza 3 and figured it might be fun to try to get all the achievements... then I realized I had to buy another game's worth of content to do it, so it's not going to happen.

 

Speaking of Forza 3 - racing sims you can't rewind. I've been spoiled now, and it's just inexcusable to play through 3 or more grueling laps, only to get near the end and have a guy shove out my rear end as I head into a corner, sending me flying off the track, into a wall, and out of the race. Did I deserve that? I don't think so! I was driving properly and couldn't even see him, but because the AI has no self preservation interest, they play bumper cars while I try to survive AND win. I'm looking at you, Real Racing 2.

 

Dishonourable mentions (not super common, but it's happened):

 

Invincible special characters: Like the cats in the Tenchu games. They can spot you and alert enemies, but you could attack them until they should be bone meal, and they'll keep running around yowling and alerting people.

 

Locked multiplayer: WHY? You get a cool game, it says it does multiplayer, so you take it to a friend's place, and you're not allowed to play MP yet, so you fool around with SP a bit trying to unlock it and then give up and play a real MP game. How is that a good thing?

 

Powerups that kill you: I thought that died off with games like Nethack, but apparently not! In NH, you could find rotten food, or random, unlabelled potions that would poison you. I was just playing The Binding of Isaac and I'd killed everything on level 3. My shots were powered up and rapid-fire. I had more items than I knew what to do with. I'd used a tarot card before and it gave me an item, so use up the powerups I had, I used a tarot card I found, and... a foot came from above and crushed me dead. Game over. What IS the gameplay point of that, other than to just kick the player in the junk and give them the finger?