VicariousShaner Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Per Deans request: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-sHp-iapqvo I disagreed with most of the points made in the video (the Bioshock corset is pretty time-appropriate) , and he seemed to overreact pretty harshly to quite a few things ("You're helping sexist people feel validated if you don't care about women in videogames"!) I'm a bit curious to see what you people think of the video, and the subject in general. Do you think there aren't enough women protagonists (good ones, at any rate), there is far too much sexualization, or do you think it's just a lot of noise about something that's ultimately harmless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 He made a lot of points, including devils advocate/straw man examples too so unsure on which points you're disagreeing with. It seemed to be pretty much both against the white-knighters, and the "privileged". And I'm not a huge fan of white knighters either. I agree, as the video seems to be leaning towards, that women should be able to speak up just fine on their own and feeling the need to white knight them is just as sexist. And I like to generally stay away from discussions of straight white male privilege. But should be okay here so I will say I do agree on the topic that men are just as unrealistically portrayed, but it's just unrealistic, not really highly sexualised like women in games can be. The video did kinda go off a bit at that section though. I will say: corset, yes in style of the time. With top of the tits hanging out, not really. It's 1912, still the time of modesty. Having stuff like an achievement for looking at in-game tits is pretty shitty and can't be spun any way that looks good or even reasonable. And DoA generally has always been "that game with tits", and it's a fact the developers don't really bother hiding (quite the opposite). It's not something I'd say is a huge issue with gaming, but you only need a few examples to make everyone else look bad. It's not so much that more women need to be put in games, or as protagonists. They just need to not be put in with a main aim being sexual objects but as actual characters. Elana Fisher manages to hold up just fine without having to get her jubblies out. I would say there's certainly a growing awareness of it and challenge to the current norms. The big events of past few years being the banning of boothbabes from PAX and EG Expo(sorta). I don't think it's something that will go away, women as sex objects is still a huge selling points to a lot of things, not just games. But you'll certainly see stuff like "stare at tits, get achievements" fade away fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnine Tenshi Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I typed some things here and realized they'd probably just make people dislike me. | : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Heat Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I regard it the same way I regard the topic of 'minorities and underrepresented people in video games'. It would be nice to have more diversity, so long as we weren't getting female/latino/gay/lesbian/etc etc protagonists just because. We need to get them because they're the most fitting choice for the story and let it come naturally. I know it sounds like 'Sucks to be you, but it'll get better eventually! Trust me!', but it sure as hell doesn't seem like trying to force the issue really gets us anywhere. That said, I could stand to see less overly girlish and boring characters (looking at you, Cheria!) and less buxom women who exist solely for fanservice (I saw this as I'm trying to watch Witchblade). More women that don't act like they're confined by gender stereotypes. On a related note, someone should fire Toriyama over at Square-Enix. Dude does not know what makes a reasonable female protagonist (Lightning isn't it), but does know how to ruin an established one (RIP Aya Brea). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Little Pirate Posted November 20, 2012 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 If I'm going to stare at a virtual ass all day it might as well be hot. Just sayin'. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I don't think we're ever going to get away from some games having eye candy, but right now it seems like 90% of girls in games are designed just for fanservice, and I think there's a problem with that. I can't put together a coherent enough thought to elaborate further. Guess it must just be too early in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Exhibit A! A for Ashe. Or for Ass. I'm not complaining though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 So far as the eye-candy thing goes, that cuts both ways. Inaccessible body image is a staple of modern media and is not tied to a single gender. Chris Redfield's arms are ridiculous for example. There are few "ugly" protagonists full stop. As to the role women actually play in games, they do tend to be the support role at best and a plot device at worst. We can all rattle off games with decent female leads, but the majority of games are still "save the girl", even Ico was a "drag the useless woman around the castle-em-up". To be honest, there are still plenty of issues with getting women in gaming in the real world. Perhaps when there are more of them, we'll have more balance in the games that are made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 According to the ESA, as of last year 42% of gamers were female. That's not quite 50%, but it's not a niche either. There's of course the question of what kinds of games they're playing, what percentage of "core" gamers are female. But at the same time that could be a chicken-and-egg thing: are the games targeted at men because there aren't very many women, or are there not very many women because the games are targeted at men? Honestly I think it's probably a little of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I meant the people making them rather than the people playing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oh, that makes more sense then. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Yeah that's a mystery for the ages. Computer courses have a huge problem with getting women involved, though gaming being in the creative side can pull in from those areas too. If you could work out how to get women interested in computer courses you would become a very rich person. Though once again there's likely a chicken and egg thing, if women feel left out of gaming, what would encourage them to take up a carer in making them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 It's a funny thing. In my part of the videogame business there are tonnes of women. But, I could count on one hand the number of girls I've met testing games. Again, a chicken and egg problem. With hardly any women in the industry the arrival of a genuine female means that she is instantly a nexus for attention. Whether it is the well meaning kind of "Oh you're a girl so you must be struggling to integrate." to the more negative, slobbering, "I can't wait till we all get drunk at the Christmas party so i can book myself a trip to HR." sort. Either way, it makes you stand out as being different. Much as I would hate for it to happen to me, I do honestly believe that forcing the number of women in the industry to be higher by the application of quotas would be an effective means of redressing the imbalance. Once having a number of girls in the office becomes the norm, the novelty wears off so that girls are not made to feel uncomfortable by default, so more games will be made by people who think like girls, and more girls will want to get into the industry... At least, that's what would happen in an ideal world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 If a game is designed with strong women in mind, then all to them to give us one. If a game like Hitman comes out and has prostitutes and sleazy women alongside the assholes and gross men then please don't complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 http://penny-arcade....nt-support-them A timely article. Though I'd like to have a look at what data they have (kinda funny to put Faith up top when ME has sold over 2 million copies, not a number to be snuffed at. Though not as high as stuff like COD), like the raw numbers, and what games it is that they're comparing. Especially as you're definitely going to have high marketing budgets on first party titles (like InFamous, Gears, Uncharted, Halo, etc), and they tend to be the games with male protagonists(Heavenly Sword is all that comes to mind that isn't), there's not much comparative data to be had in that sector. Compared to third party stuff where you've got much wider spectrum of games so more diluted marketing budget for many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 @Dean: they're arguing for games where the female lead is exclusive. And ME is not exclusive. In fact I think I read that something along 2/3 gamers or more played as male shepard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 You might want to re-read my post. There's context clues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf and Statler Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Maybe it's due to me just waking up but I get the rest of your post, I don't get what you meant with the ME stuff. Besides that I enjoyed the article. And too am curious as to what data they used. But the claims don't seem too far fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Heat Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 In fact I think I read that something along 2/3 gamers or more played as male shepard. If I remember the statistics BioWare showed, only 18% of people played as female Shepard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Okay I'll spell it out (because Mass Effect doesn't appear in the article), but Faith is the exclusively female lead of...Mirror's Edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Heat Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Man, I have this problem too when I see someone use the abbreviation 'SF'. I'm like 'Do they mean Shining Force? Street Fighter? Star Fox? Syphon Filter? Goddamn!'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Mirror's Edge/Mass Effect can be a problem, but when you refer to ME's protagonist being Faith in the same sentence that should be a giveaway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicariousShaner Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Metroid is a pretty well known female protagonist, although I'm not really sure if her character is one to be lauded. I mean, she doesn't have too much character at all (outside of comic books/Other M) and could be a completely blank slate without much changing. I'm not sure that's the type of female character we should be pushing developers to make, even if it's not sexualising or demeaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'm trying to remember where I read it (and it was only recent), but the knack to writing strong female leads is supposedly you write it as a male, then swap the gender. Which is probably why FemShep is lauded so much; she's exactly the same dialogue, attitude, situations as her male counterpart. All that changes is the avatar that acts those scenarios out. Also in regards to Samus there's plenty of male characters that are pretty much blank slates too. It's mainly due to how games ave been made over the generations, and she's pretty old. Hence the "outside of Other M", that being the most modern Metroid it has the touches of modern games in giving the protag personality and background. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Well, the prototype for strong females in modern cinema was Ripley in Alien, who was originally a man in concept. And, of course, in the film, they kill off the manly man fairly early on. I think it's a good 'technique' to follow unless your story is about societal issues regarding gender (not exactly usual game territory). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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