Broken Age

[deanb]

Okay, I thought you were saying something like "this is a game, not some artistic endeavor".

You're quoting Tenshi, not me.   

 

 

The post from the Banner Sage is about on par with how I've seen many devs react to the reaction to the DF issues. None of them are making a good case with the "hey, to completely fuck up project management and budgeting is the norm". Also coming from Banner Saga, the guys who used the funding to make a surprise F2P game to fund the game the KS was meant to fund in the first place are also maybe not the guys you want defending you.

 

They've probably miffed off a few indies with thier "$20K isn't enough for a game" comment too. Also from what I understand his rough guess of COD is mainly marketing, it'll hardly cost $150million for the year updates. $100million in actual production costs is usually in the realm of MMOs and iirc GTAIV.

 

The reaction from a few of the KS-using studios is actually pretty bad. They're using KS and being all "wooh, new funding" but still using it like they would if they had a publishers bank account to suckle on for further funding. With KS what you get, be it $20K or $4million, is all you have (well, apart from previously mentioned cases where they've had further angel funding, or had a publisher come on board, but that's stuff you should have planned out ahead of the KS. If not, then yeah WYSWIG)

[Mr. GOH!]

I think the whole "managing production of video games is difficult point" is a good one to make, although it doesn't address the choices Double Fine has made in dealing with the problems it has encountered. I have never worked on a major project in any industry that has been on time and on budget. It's perfectly normal for complex projects to need more time and money, even if nobody really fucked anything up. 

[Saturnine Tenshi]

But you have to ask yourself why it's generally considered perfectly normal, and consider that these Kickstarter endeavors are meant to be working outside of one of the large issues with production time and costs: the high overseer. The whole deal with Kickstarter is that you're supposed to have a clear idea of what you're selling to those investing in order to sell them on it to begin with. That does happen in some cases. Cases where people are prepared and think forward. In the case of Double Fine, it was more, "We're lauded. Give us money and we'll make an adventure game." It's okay to be ambitious, but do so within the scope of reality. I think that this is especially crucial when you're so high above what you had (supposedly) budgeted to begin with. More than that, take some friggin' responsibility for your project.

[deanb]

Well there's going over budget, and then there's going 1,600% over budget. Which is quite a feat (And that's only going off the base KS amount raised, never mind how much extra they've put into the project from DF's own money).
 
The process should have been "We're doing a $400K game/film project and gotten $3.8million. That gives us wriggle room of 700% over budget. Which is silly amounts. But let's assume the choice now is that we'll spend right up the upper limits instead of sticking to the original $400K game we got folks to back. Looking back on previous projects, an indulgence we have over indies, we usually go ~20% over budget so to be safe we'll budget $3million to the game, with $800K as "whoops, went a little bit over", and if it's left then it's profit or something extra to go in at the end." Instead they went...fuck I honestly don't know their line of thinking beyond Schafers:

The truth is I always act as if I didn't have to worry about profits, had all the money in the world, and no technical limits. Maybe that's why my games are considered "niche," why they go over budget, and why my programmers have to work so hard. So basically, I'd be doing exactly what I'm doing right now!

Anywho here's how FTL dealt with getting 10 times more than asked:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/two-men-200000-and-a-successful-kickstarter-how-ftl-did-everything-right

[Mr. GOH!]

ST: things go over budget because humans cannot predict the future. As far as Kickstarters go, the more a project promises, the more money it will receive, so there's incentive to overpromise. Unlike publishers, backers can't demand cuts to stay within budget (let alone the difficulties in getting all the backers to agree what needs to be cut).

 

On the other hand, I think as companies learn how to promote and then work with Kickstarter projects, they'll get better at making sure they do not promise what they cannot deliver. I'm willing to chalk up Broken Age as a learning experience. Then again, I did not back it, so no skin off my back. I'm hopeful that the games I have backed will fare better, partially because the devs have given themselves ample time to work on the games.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

You're right, GOH. I didn't mean to imply that people should be perfect. I do understand that creative ventures have unforeseen obstacles.

 

But I do mean to say that there should be a measure of acceptable planning (and responsibility taken for not doing so and overpromising); that these shouldn't be shots in the dark. This shouldn't be territory new to Double Fine (or other experience developers for that matter). And Tim Schafer makes that pretty obvious in the piece Dean quoted—at least in his case.

 

It's precisely because backers can't demand cuts to stay within budget that developers should be prepared to plan these things on their own, with the freedom imparted by not having someone cutting for them.

 

Normally, I'd understand going over budget. But this is an extreme.

[Waldorf and Statler]

 

The post from the Banner Sage is about on par with how I've seen many devs react to the reaction to the DF issues. None of them are making a good case with the "hey, to completely fuck up project management and budgeting is the norm". Also coming from Banner Saga, the guys who used the funding to make a surprise F2P game to fund the game the KS was meant to fund in the first place are also maybe not the guys you want defending you.

 

They've probably miffed off a few indies with thier "$20K isn't enough for a game" comment too. Also from what I understand his rough guess of COD is mainly marketing, it'll hardly cost $150million for the year updates. $100million in actual production costs is usually in the realm of MMOs and iirc GTAIV.

 

 

All they did was release the multiplayer aspect earlier, give it for free to backers and say "this is to help, the game is still on schedule". It didn't slow down development on the single player game and you could play it just fine without it becoming a P2W, people just blew it out of proportions because they were looking to make a profit and polish the KS game more. They even used it as a way to balance out shit and get player feedback on the battling. Which may I remind you they only got 700,000 for a 400,000 game, big difference from a 3-4 million game like DF.

 

And sure their comment may on low budgets may have been too much, but let's take into consideration these guys used to work in Bioware so their experience is Bioware-like. I'm sure somebody can make an indie game for 20k or less. Now whether it's good or playable is another question.

[Hot Heart]

FTL's a bad example because the game was by a much smaller team and already 3/4 done. That's most likely why they didn't change their design and instead just beefed up the production values while having a beta.

 

I am concerned that Schafer's extra design might just be bloat though, then again if they didn't do something extra with all that money then I can see people being mighty pissed about that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Thursday Next]

FTL's a bad example because the game was by a much smaller team and already 3/4 done. That's most likely why they didn't change their design and instead just beefed up the production values while having a beta.

 

I am concerned that Schafer's extra design might just be bloat though, then again if they didn't do something extra with all that money then I can see people being mighty pissed about that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

I disagree. They were backed to make "X" game. Provided all the backers got what they were promised then there should be no ill feelings. You were promised a DF adventure game, you got one. Stretch goals are nice and all. But you've got to deliver on what you promised in the first place before trying to tack more on. I'd rather have a $400,000 game than not have a $4,000,000 game.

 

From another perspective, now that FTL has (presumably) made way more in sales than the Kickstarter fund does that mean the game should now magically be better? If the devs knew in advance that it would make that much money, should they have spent more making it better? The fact that DF got a large % of their sales up front (via KS) does not mean that the team has to use all that money, there is no requirement to account for it. Everyone paid what? $10 for the game? So everyone should expect a $10, not a $60 AAA multi million budget title.

 

If I had backed this, I would be pissed. It's a bait and switch, but worse because you don't even get the switch.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

How is it a bait and switch? People are still going to get the game. Kickstarter is not a pre-order service to begin with.

[Mr. GOH!]

Broken Age backers still get both parts, don't they? If they do not, then there's a real reason to be pissed.

 

A Kickstarter campaign to fund game development fundamentally shifts the risk from publishers (and, to some extent, developers) to the backers. The nature of the beast is that the backers may get burned. Right now there's no real history of a given developer's successes and failures in meeting its backers demands for potential backers to scrutinize when weighing the risks of backing a game. Once that develops, folks can make better decisions about backing a particular developer's games, and that will lead to more realistic Kickstarter project promises and goals.

[Hot Heart]

I don't even get your point, T-Next.. They would still deliver the game without the extra funds, it would just be reduced back from the 'ultimate' vision yet still beyond the $400,000 original idea. There is no issue of there not being a game at all.

 

And I'm not saying that I'd be pissed if they didn't add all this 'extra' stuff, but rather I could see general gamers expecting more. I even stated my own view, which is almost the opposite, in the very same post.

[deanb]

Double fine has been around since 2000, so it does have quite a long history with which to gauge success and failures, unlike newer indies and random roving bands of veteran devs that've formed.

 

I see TN's point (but likely because I've made similar already). Folks backed a $400K game and video project, and instead of receiving that they're getting word that a $4million project that isn't what they backed is struggling and there's a chance they'll have a compromised game as a result. Maybe it's just the tutor I had, but we were taught to not splash out with a windfall just because you have it, but put it aside until you either super dooper need it. Just because you got a few grand in extra doesn't mean you need to spend it on unnecessary things beyond your original business scope. i.e you need a PC to do editing on, you end up with a bit extra from your first few contracts, don't spend that getting a PC in excess of what you need, or getting extra monitors/overly fancy kb/m etc. It's why I mentioned the FTL guys. They needed $10K to do up the finishing touches, they got $200k. So they used $10K of that to do the finishing touches, and put the rest aside for future projects.

[Hot Heart]

Yes, but the FTL guys were in a far easier position to gauge what was needed than a complete dev studio embarking on a whole new game. As has been said by others in the industry, this sort of thing happens in all professional game developers; you're just seeing everything in the open. Not to mention there's the old 'woo, underdogs!' angle to an indie and a new IP which makes people more forgiving anyway.

 

So, yes, it's silly that Schafer went and designed 'too much game' which does leave me more than a little miffed, but I can see why it probably happened. I very much doubt that the game would've been compromised so much it became a 'lesser' game than originally envisioned. So, as a backer, I see no reason to be pissed, because I know they will still deliver on the game.

 

Personally, I am only concerned about this indulgent-sounding extra design. Again, though, there's a good chance major design issues have happened on games before, games I've liked, and it's just that this time I'm seeing it played out. Schafer's been at it a long time, so creatively he might know exactly what he's doing; it's just the nature of its funding that complicates things a little. If it were with a publisher, I can see a very high chance that all you'd see is the compromised version (and months earlier too).

[Mr. GOH!]

I meant successes and failures in living up to their Kickstarter promises, Dean. I thought I was pretty clear about that. If developing for a publish is really different from developing for KS backers, it stands to reason that nobody really knows how well a given developer will be able to deliver on their KS promises.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mr. GOH!

[TheMightyEthan]

Not to mention that information about how developers have done for their publishers is a lot harder to come by.

[deanb]

FTL guys were in an similarly equal position where gaining excess money meant they could have gone above and beyond their initial scope, but they stuck to what the needed. DF has over a decade of experience (and even more so taking on board the individuals involved) to be able to gauge prices, enough so they figured $400K was good enough to make a small game and video in 6-8 months with a small team. I generally refuse to believe that a game goes nearly 20 times over budget too and is normal to do so, even with the infamous Double Fine.

 

If Double Fine is unable to secure the further $4million through Steam early-access then you're only going to get half a game, which is vastly compromised over the finished game that $400K was meant to get. What was the plan if they'd only gotten $400K? Come out a few months down the line and go "woops, we need another $7.5million more than we thought we did"?

 

@GOH: Given it's a kickstarter I'd take the assumption a studio/company is unlikely to ever come back if they're successful (since they've been kickstarted..if you get me). However with DoubleFine we have the ability to know from them being an established studio what they're like with past projects. Which brings us to Ethan being that DoubleFines issues with budgeting and publishers isn't exactly state secret. Even Schafer, as already linked, is quite open to the fact they frequently go over budget. Hence their shift to self publishing and crowd funding and their last AAA tier game being Brutal Legend (which wasn't entirely thier fault going a bit tits up).

 

In fact if you go through their games, THQ (who I think ordered Costume Quest and Stacking as a combo) and Microsoft are they only publisher they've had more than once. Been with Majesco, Activision/EA, THQ, MS, WB Interactive, and Sega. Rest being self published or financed by Dracogen (which essentially a really rich Kickstarer backer).

[Hot Heart]

You really can't see the difference between a two-man dev team already 3/4 through the production of their game, presumably eager to get it out the door, and a full development studio, with all the staff that entails, at the very beginning of production of their game, a larger, more complex beast?

 

From what I can gather, Schafer saw how much funding it got and figured that now he has a chance to really expand on his original vision and 'give back' something by putting more into the game. It was outside of the normal remit, but I can see there being good intentions. That he managed to go completely and stupidly overboard (or at least, wound up in the same mindset as when making the bigger-style Lucasarts games) is, understandably, a problem. However, I'm confident that either they'll get the money or that the game can be pared down to still offer a decent, complete experience.

[Mr. GOH!]

Several studios has signalled that they intend to fund multiple games via kickstarter. InXile is making it a core business strategy. Obsidian may also go that route for a number of new games. These companies will build reputations as being good or bad at kickstarter. This is what I am talking about. Some developers will be repeat players in the kickstarter game and therefore their reputations at how they fulfill their promises will become important.

[TheMightyEthan]

I know with Doublefine specifically it was well known they aren't really able to stay in budget, but most game companies the general public really has no idea how well they perform behind the scenes.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

I know with Doublefine specifically it was well known they aren't really able to stay in budget

 

I think you're severely overestimating if you think that was well known.

[deanb]

You really can't see the difference between a two-man dev team already 3/4 through the production of their game, presumably eager to get it out the door, and a full development studio, with all the staff that entails, at the very beginning of production of their game, a larger, more complex beast?

 

From what I can gather, Schafer saw how much funding it got and figured that now he has a chance to really expand on his original vision and 'give back' something by putting more into the game. It was outside of the normal remit, but I can see there being good intentions. That he managed to go completely and stupidly overboard (or at least, wound up in the same mindset as when making the bigger-style Lucasarts games) is, understandably, a problem. However, I'm confident that either they'll get the money or that the game can be pared down to still offer a decent, complete experience.

It isn't and never wasn't a full development studio. It's a "small team". Just to double check here I'm not the only one that's ever read their Kickstarter page right?

 

 

About the Project

Over a six-to-eight month period, a small team under Tim Schafer's supervision will develop Double Fine's next game, a classic point-and-click adventure.  Where it goes from there will unfold in real time for all the backers to see.

 

They even highlight $2-3million is price of an XBLA game, aka Costume Quest/Stacking, and they they want to keep the scale of the project small. Heck, maybe even DF didn't read their pitch either?

 

@GOH: Yeah I understand a couple (including Double Fine, great timing holding off the "oh no we fucked up our first KS budgeting" news after they completed Massive Chalice funding eh?) have done multiple funding, but it's not really the spirit of kickstarter. It's kinda in the name right there, kickstarter, not kickforeverandever. Once again we come back to the FTL guys and there use of the surplus KS funds, and the fund they got from sales of their KS'd game to develop future games. Though obviously from a developers point of view there's much appeal to repeatedly use KS since you not only don't have to risk a publishers money on your project, you don't have to risk your own. Either you fuck up at KS, either due to missing targets due to a non-compelling idea, or you mess up on delivery of the project goals in which case you won't be coming back again. Or you do well, hit your targets, even exceed and deliver a compelling product that goes on to be further commercially viable. In which case you make money from those sales and shouldn't really need further external sources.

[Thursday Next]

How is it a bait and switch? People are still going to get the game. Kickstarter is not a pre-order service to begin with.

 

Ok, I get that it's not a pre-order service per se. But DF have still asked for money and promised to deliver a product in a time frame.

 

If I give a colleague £5 to grab me a burger for lunch, and they disappear until my evening meal where upon they appear with a steak dinner, I would be annoyed. They offered something, they gave a time scale and they came back with something totally different much later than I wanted it. Yes, a steak dinner is better than a burger. Yes, I am getting more for my money. But I didn't want a steak dinner worth £20, I wanted a burger lunch worth the £5 I gave the guy.

 

People who backed DFA didn't back a $4million 2 year project. They backed a $400k 8 month project. That's what DF committed to, and that's what they should have delivered.

[deanb]

To slightly tweak your analogy you and your mates want a pizza, pizza's cost £10 and the six of you chip in £5 each. Dave now has £30 with which to buy a pizza, he rings you all the next day asking for another £30, and you'll get a 60" pizza base that evening, and the toppings and cheese the following day.

[TheMightyEthan]

Well they did say on the Kickstarter that if they got more money they would expand the project.