TheMightyEthan Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Yes. I mean it's one thing if the deathstar were orbiting that planet, or even in the same system, but in both TFA and ST2009 he makes it seem like it's supposed to be from halfway across the galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 New short trailer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Are you guys ready for spoilers? I wasn't able to avoid them with TFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 8, 2017 Report Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 11, 2017 Report Share Posted December 11, 2017 And hey if you want some tears: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 15, 2017 Report Share Posted December 15, 2017 One very little quip about TLJ that I felt really plagued it. Reveal hidden contents They were so scared of spoilers that they use so many misdirection. It honestly was kind of annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) So, my collected thoughts on The Last Jedi. It's a surprisingly busy film with a lot to say for itself, so it takes a while to process. I know a few folks who were lukewarm (PUN INTENDED) on it until a second watch, which I think is understandable. I'm keen to see where they go, although I feel Rian Johnson is getting a separate trilogy for his vision while Abrams is back on the third film to steer the ship back into safer waters. However, it seems like the original intention was to have the three films anchored around the OT characters with Han first, then Luke and finally Leia; which is obviously not possible now unless they recreate the horrible effects at the end of Rogue One... So, yes, it's a divisive film and I can understand why. Whereas TFA treated its mythology and legends as nigh on sacrosanct, TLJ is fully prepared to both look back while also not afraid to tread new ground. In actual context, it's probably as surprising and refreshing as ESB was at the time. In a nice change, I think it's bound to generate a lot of discussion about what it did rather than what it didn't (endless TFA theories on this and that) or simply just what was (Rogue One). Reveal hidden contents Early on, when it picks up from the last shot of TFA, it lays out a key idea. The lightsaber which had become so important in TFA, finally returned to Luke after all this time, that lingering shot as he's hesitant to take it and when he does... he just tosses it over his shoulder. There are also a bunch of lines that become important as they echo throughout the film and most likely necessitate that second viewing. The first and earliest is perhaps the simplest. "This is not going to go the way you think," Luke chides. He's not wrong there and it works as a character moment and a commentary. Then at a pivotal moment later on, Kylo Ren reveals what is potentially the 'Rosetta stone' for the film's message, when he says "Let the past die". It is a film that will be uncomfortable to fans because it is asking them to let go of their attachment to the symbology because it no longer serves any great purpose. (Funny that Thor Ragnarok touched on these elements this year as well). It's a bold move for a blockbuster franchise and decade-spanning saga to take but it's what makes it so refreshing and exciting. I think a lot of the disappointment or straight up hate is because people's fan theories have been shot down or just brushed aside. Rey doesn't need famous parents and an easy resolution to what her character is missing. We don't need another Emperor Palpatine in Snoke, nor does the story even care about the who, how, why of him because Kylo Ren is the antagonist and a far more interesting one. And as Mal pointed out in the other thread, the other key issue in the film is made explicit by Yoda, and essentially summed up as: the greatest teacher, failure is failure is the greatest teacher. And everybody fails in this film. Sure, Po gets all the guns on the Dreadnought, but his plan loses the whole bomber fleet and a load of fighters, then his secret plan with Finn blows up in their faces and, finally, he accepts that he can't have the big hero moment with the landspeeder things stopping the ramming cannon. Finn just sucks at everything and his sheer determination won't get him through, with Rose having to stop his senseless sacrifice. Rey doesn't turn Kylo Ren or vice versa. Hux is a snivelling fuck-up. Phasma is a huge, shiny waste of space. It's a very difficult film to "enjoy" because it is selling disappointment as one of its major throughlines. When it talks about "the spark that lights the fire that will burn the First Order down" it is also saying that the old ways need to die; quite literally burning down the tree with the original Jedi Order texts (although, I swear you see Rey uncover them aboard the Millenium Falcon at the end). The film is rich with a fiery revolutionary message of which we are only seeing the beginning and it speaks to today and the plight of milennials inheriting the fuck-ups of the boomer generation, in which your '60s counter culture elders actuallly allowed authoritarianism to creep in and seize control. I'll probably have a bunch more to say in discussion but I'll end it here for now on a stray observation: I found it weird to hear the expression "Godspeed". It suggests that there are other religions being practised besides belief in "The Force" or... it's, umm, actually a technical term? Edited December 17, 2017 by Hot Heart 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Reveal hidden contents I'm really happy how they made Rey a nobody. So many people tried to make her a Skywalker or a Kenobi when it never made sense. If the Force chose Anakin on a whim then so too can Rey be chosen on a whim. Then again, the Force is everywhere and it doesn't need a chosen one. The stable kid at the end used it willy nilly like it was normal. Now that was an interesting bit. I actually kind of chuckled when Snoke died. He's still a mystery on who and what he is so it was a bold move to just kill him off. On the Star Wars subreddit, I saw a comparison between Snoke and the Jedi emblem thing in the cave on the island. The emblem shows a being who looks a lot like Snoke in both light and dark. Far as I can recall, it is really the only fan theory/lore fuel there is in the film. As far as this film is concern, it's burning the lore all down. And yes, I am pretty sure it was the Jedi text at the end. So who knows how this is all going to play out but I can say this: I am concerned how and where Abrams will take the last film. I think TLJ took the series into a neat direction. TFA was a disappointment in retrospect while TLJ is getting better with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 On 12/17/2017 at 11:05 PM, Mal said: Reveal hidden contents And yes, I am pretty sure it was the Jedi text at the end. Expand Reveal hidden contents "There is nothing in that Library for her. Everything she needs she has with her already"* Yoda, Jedi Master of Trolling. *Or something like that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Oh my God, Dean, you're totally right! Yeah, after how good this was, and how much I've soured on TFA since it came out, I'm really nervous for how Episode IX will turn out with Abrams back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Jack Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if Disney decides to stick with the new guy after the much better reception this movie got. I feel like it will be remembered more fondly than TFA a few years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 I agree, while TFA was a good return to the Star Wars we all know and love, TLJ finally took us in a new direction. Reveal hidden contents Love that Snoke was offed without a long story about his background, largely because, it doesn't matter any more. The days of Sith and Jedi being an elite class are over. Anyone can be taught to use the force, whether they are descended from a long line of masters, abandoned children who dream of their special parents, or stable boys who don't even have a name. Throwing out the concepts of "light side" and "dark side" is also a great move. If we really want Star Wars to stop being a kids film, then it needs to move away from the black and white view of "goodies and baddies" and into the view of bad people can do good things (Ren saving Rey/killing Snoke) and good people can do bad things (Poe's mutiny which ultimately led to the deaths of most of the Rebel escapees. The Poe arc is interesting, he's gone from being a hero of the resistance to being responsible for it being all but annihilated. Poe sending Finn off led to Del Toro's "DJ" telling the first order of the escape plan, which also led to the death of Skywalker. So in TLJ Poe is responsible for the loss of a number of Rebel fighters, all their bombers, all but six of the escape cruisers and Luke. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 On 12/18/2017 at 4:58 AM, Mister Jack said: I wouldn't be surprised if Disney decides to stick with the new guy after the much better reception this movie got. I feel like it will be remembered more fondly than TFA a few years from now. Expand Already happened, he's been handed his own non-Skywalker trilogy to direct. It's why I was quite keen on this one, given other Star Wars projects under Disney haven't been as enthusiastic on their directors so obviously he'd done something right for Disney for them to give him a whole trilogy before TLJ even launched. @Thursday Next Reveal hidden contents Yeah he done super fucked up. But I've a horrible feeling that nothing will be made of it in the next one because he's "a good guy" as per the story and imprisoning him might not go over so well. It seems the most that has come out of it has been Leia giving a shrug to him. Like even at the end she's like "why you looking at me for orders, follow him....the guy who lead to the death of most of our command structure and who only an hour or so ago mutineed...but yeah follow that guy." [/spoiler] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 My biggest issue with the movie: Reveal hidden contents How the fuck did Del Toro even know about the cloaked escape cruisers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) On 12/18/2017 at 3:06 PM, TheMightyEthan said: My biggest issue with the movie: Reveal hidden contents How the fuck did Del Toro even know about the cloaked escape cruisers? Expand Reveal hidden contents He overheard Poe telling Finn, right? Holdo had said the plan was a need-to-know basis, and that really cements the "Poe dun goofed" element. I'm just not sure why Holdo needed to stay aboard to fool anyone in the first place. Oh, and on a hopeful (BUZZWORD) note, it turns out that they got Johnson to write a treatment for Episode IX so it wasn't like the next director being handed a blank slate again. Sure, it's not a script but it at least means there's a framework. However... I hear Abrams was the one who was allowed to scrap the original outline done by Lucas and Kennedy when Lucasfilm was sold to Disney, so who knows? Edited December 18, 2017 by Hot Heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 On 12/18/2017 at 3:55 PM, Hot Heart said: Reveal hidden contents I'm just not sure why Holdo needed to stay aboard to fool anyone in the first place. Expand Oh yeah, I forgot about that too, I was like Reveal hidden contents "Do Mon Cal cruisers not have autopilot?" Also, I must have missed that part that answered my first question. *Edit* - I would love for Episode IX to start with Reveal hidden contents the court martial of Poe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Pfft, that would be too much like Star Trek: Discovery 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) A couple notes and questions: Reveal hidden contents 1. Rey took the Jedi books. You see them on the Falcon when Finn is rummaging through a drawer near the end. Yoda destroyed the tree to help Luke get over himself. It's what Luke needed to be at peace. 2. TLJ is still Manichean in its morality. Ren is evil and of the Dark Side, just not cartoonishly so. He acts out of selfishness and not for good reasons, even when he accomplishes something good. It was telling that he called Rey's parents 'nobodies'; dismissing people as being without value is a Dark Side move. I think the humanity of his evil makes him a much more interesting villain that you see in almost any other blockbuster franchise though. 3. Why do we believe him and Snoke about Rey's parentage? Edited December 19, 2017 by Mr. GOH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 This is an "outside of the text" thing but with regards to 3. Reveal hidden contents "Because the director says it's true" being the simplest answer. It has that aspect of coming from an unreliable source, which is probably partly intentional to leave it open for Abrams, but it all fits with the overall approach. It's about breaking away from the incestuous saga that Star Wars was in danger of becoming, where you could only be special because of your lineage (although, to be fair, SW makes its side characters just as heroic in other ways). It also feels like more of a return to the spiritual aspect of the Force, rather than an Order (Jedi rather than First) dictating its tutelage and usage. Which is what it was getting at with Luke's arc. Also, I think it would lack any real tension if it were just a case of, "oh, yeah, you are descended from a good guy, go be a hero now." On another note, the Poe stuff reminded me of something that I couldn't place until now: a quote by Zoe in Serenity. "Do you know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thursday Next Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Reveal hidden contents I think we believe Snoke and Ren because Rey does. She searches her feelings and knows it to be true etc etc etc. A lot of Holdo's actions post evacuation don't make sense, you could argue that knowing Poe was such a hot head, she should have defused his reaction by telling him at least part of the plan, though perhaps not the bit where she stays behind as Poe would insist on taking her place and they need pilots. Why not make a jump to hyperspace once the other ships have offloaded and got a bit of distance, that would instantly draw the fleet away so that there would be no chance of anyone accidentally spotting them? Why not, if you are on a suicide mission, immediately spin around and fuck up the Supremacy? They could at least have had her put a call in to the Supremacy from the Rebel flagship shortly before her destruction where she throws down some defiant speech saying how she's taken command and Leia is dead and they'll never defeat the rebellion etc. or something so that the First Order know that (at least) she is on the ship and think that Leia is out of the picture. That would at least explain why she stayed behind as otherwise the transmission could have been traced to the escaping ships or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyEthan Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Reveal hidden contents The ships obviously don't have autopilots, that's why the captains were on the other two ships that ran out of fuel. I do agree that it would have been easy, even if she didn't want to tell Poe the plan, to at least tell him that there was a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. GOH! Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Reveal hidden contents I thought that she was needed on the ship to set up the final jump away from the hidden base. To be fair, I like the idea that Rey is not some sort of genetic inheritor of a special destiny. I also like the idea that when Ren calls her parents nobodies he's setting up Rey to both acknowledge they were not galactic heroes but that their lives nonetheless mattered and that Ren's dismissal of them is part and parcel of his fall to the Dark Side. Also, how great are Hux and Ren together? Hux so wants to be the typical sneering and gleefully evil villain even though he is really an up-jumped martinet next to Ren's more complicated but impactful embrace of evil, despite not totally acting the part. Ren's more personal and interesting evil also works when playing off of Snoke's supreme manipulator brand of villainy. I really dug it. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Heart Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Reveal hidden contents The Holdo thing makes sense, actually, given that they did spare enough fuel to make a hyperspace jump. Another minor thing occurred to me. Reveal hidden contents I like how this even walks back the cliched disfigurement of Ren. He gets his big-ass evil dude scar and then... nope, it's getting fixed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanb Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 RE number 3 Reveal hidden contents This was actually an issue in the OT. People were like "well Darth Vader would lie to Luke, he's a bad guy", so in RotJ they had Yoda confirm it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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