Star Wars

[TheMightyEthan]

They've made $1.3 billion from The Last Jedi.  Even if it's not what they'd hoped, they're not going to start delaying movies because of it.

[CorgiShinobi]

And China is the country that eats up the Transformer films, so using them as a scale in quality is terribly misguided.

 

Episode IX will not be affected, no matter how many basements seethe with contempt for Disney.

 

And Mark Hamill regrets his words because an onslaught of fanboys use his words as gospel. Any actor will have disagreements with the director, no matter the film or character. Voicing them, even as sensible opinion, leads to an Internet brigade touting opinion as fact. It's why Harrison Ford ended up hating the role of Solo and rarely enjoyed being a part of the Star Wars mythos. He couldn't have given a shit if Han shot first, but fans would constantly pester him to correct Lucas and set things straight.

 

No one loves nor hates Star Wars adamantly as Star Wars fans do and will for the foreseeable future.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Atomsk88

[Bogie 2.0]

4 hours ago, TheMightyEthan said:

They've made $1.3 billion from The Last Jedi.  Even if it's not what they'd hoped, they're not going to start delaying movies because of it.

That number means little still when there’s so much to adjust, compare and balance out. Furthermore, don’t forget that until now they had the original trio to fall back on and the only one left got err crippled. How many times will the Vader bait work? Delays aren’t anything new to them -- IX much included -- and I think the cow is in need of some serious R&R so who knows. Time will tell.

 

3 hours ago, Atomsk88 said:

And China is the country that eats up the Transformer films, so using them as a scale in quality is terribly misguided.

I guess, but I didn’t do that in fact, doesn’t that say something to you about the Last Jedi?

 

3 hours ago, Atomsk88 said:

And Mark Hamill regrets his words because an onslaught of fanboys use his words as gospel.

Didn’t he liked the prequels? And many folks disliked The Force Awakens.

[CorgiShinobi]

That's been the go-to counter-point for those who dislike The Last Jedi this past month. "Well, China..." this and that. So maybe it wasn't your intent, but China isn't some final remark when it comes to Hollywood.

 

But to your question, one's own opinion does not weigh on a foreign country's box office earnings. So no, it doesn't have significance to me in how I judge the film, or any film, and you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise. I also wouldn't care if Mark Hamill likes or dislikes the prequel trilogy. That's his view and shouldn't upset anyone's view on those films. Just as you're asserting "many folks dislike" The Force Awakens, how is that weighed and from whom? Online communities, or really echo chambers, tend to distort general reception and opinion.

 

Because in the last month I've seen all kinds of varying opinions on every single Star Wars films. Those who enjoy the prequels over the originals, and not ironically. People who say Revenge of the Sith is the best Star Wars film, but the other two prequels suck. Those who can't stand Return of the Jedi, and those who think Rogue One is the worst and that there shouldn't be standalone Star Wars stories.

 

Or, get this, how people want J.J. Abrams back to save Star Wars. Because, you know, The Last Jedi was definitely the only time Star Wars was ruined/

 

[TheMightyEthan]

Oh dear lord save me from JJ Abrams.

[Bogie 2.0]

8 hours ago, Atomsk88 said:

That's been the go-to counter-point for those who dislike The Last Jedi this past month. "Well, China..." this and that.

Ha ha I can kinda see where they’re coming from, I mean, the Chinese audiences take the Transformers but draw the line at The Last Jedi!?
 

8 hours ago, Atomsk88 said:

I also wouldn't care if Mark Hamill likes or dislikes the prequel trilogy. That's his view and shouldn't upset anyone's view on those films.

I was referring to how you were branding the movie’s detractors as ‘fanboys who follow Hamill’s words as gospel’. Isn't anyone allowed to dislike it without being branded as something or another?

[deanb]

IX being pushed back isn't weird at all given it has had a change of director, it was more weird that Solo wasn't pushed back given it was ...9 weeks into shooting iirc and paused for a bit while Disney heads wondered why the comedy directors they'd hired were making a comedy film.

 

I liked both TFA and TLJ, and I find it funny that people are upset at TLJ for not cloning TESB while people also upset at TFA for cloning ANH. Sure it could be different people but I highly doubt it. It's otherwise the highest grossing film of 2017, and it was only out for the last two weeks of 2017, so it must have done something right.

 

I'd say the thing that rubbed people the wrong way with TLJ is that it had a different director, a director who wasn't going to go in and pretend they were someone else but instead was their own thing. And really that's a tactic that's working pretty damn well for Disney *points to the entirety of the massively mind boggling successful MCU*. The last time Star Wars had the same director helming all the films with a homogeneous feel was the prequels all being directed by Lucas and as we all know they're universally loved.

 

Also Lukes split-second action is pretty much in-line with Luke of old. He's shown frequently as impatient and impulsive as opposed to the "sit in darkened rooms and meditate" Jedi of old. Both Yoda and Obi-wan had fears on his leanings towards the dark side and it's always been a consistent undercurrent to him.

 

 

[TheMightyEthan]

The thing with China and Transformers is that mindless action movies (and also slapstick comedies) aren't very language-dependent, so they end up being very successful across a wide variety of cultures. TLJ wasn't exactly an art film, but it's heavily thematic and therefore relies more on the plot than the explosions to drive things, leading to more difficulty in audiences with different cultural backgrounds.

[Mister Jack]

I'm surprised it was allowed in China at all given the whole ghost thing.

[Hot Heart]

Yes, I am really troubled when Disney make $4 billion instead of $5 billion. It really keeps me up at night, worrying about the artistic merit of their films.

 

And if China doen't like it, can I really be sure I do? Is it even legal for me to like it now?

[CorgiShinobi]

8 hours ago, Bogie 2.0 said:

I was referring to how you were branding the movie’s detractors as ‘fanboys who follow Hamill’s words as gospel’. Isn't anyone allowed to dislike it without being branded as something or another?

 

 

My sentence was not directed towards The Last Jedi. It's a statement that's been true long before the new trilogy, even before the Internet. Hence my further comment about Ford's sore relationship with the Star Wars franchise and its fans.

 

And when I say gospel, I really mean the concept of Word of God. That because Mark is Luke, that he has the final say on Luke's character and actions.

[MetalCaveman]

Spoiler

I have a couple of questions:

 

Is Phasma a joke character now? Feels like she's just there to "die", if she returns in IX that would be... Kinda cool actually.

 

What's going to happen to Leia?

 

What happened to the Knights of Ren? I don't think they were mentioned at all, I thought they would be those red dudes, but I was wrong.

 

[CorgiShinobi]

She's like this trilogy's Boba Fett. Looks cool, has skills to pay the bills, but ultimately gets jobbed and goes out like a punk. It's better if she stay dead as it would legitimately be a meta joke and weaken the moment Finn triumphs over her. You know, actually putting Phasma behind him and rising as a Rebel.

 

Probably be stated that Leia past from natural causes while the new Rebellion was forming. This could be something that furthers the Rebellion's resolve to save the galaxy. You know, about the future that she didn't get to live to see.

 

Another Abrams mystery box that, through dialogue, was suppose to further worldbuilding around Supreme Leader Snoke and Kylo Ren. They're similar to the Empire's Inquisitors, dark side users (not Sith) that are the underlings to a dark side leader, e.g. Snoke. Snoke made Kylo Ren the leader of the group, so they could easily be in Episode IX. You know, what with Ben needing an elite guard as he took out Snoke's Praetorian Guards (red guys).

 

I see the complaint that Episode IX doesn't have anything to work with, but the Force is something that is nigh limitless. There are battles to be fought, alliances to be formed, and backs to be stabbed.

 

It's obvious that Hux wants to have a coup and be the Supreme Leader. First Order officers and soldiers have shown how uneasy they are around Kylo Ren, so there's your Plot B right there.

[TheMightyEthan]

Spoiler

Phasma was only in TLJ because fans thought she got screwed in TFA by being defeated so easily, so they wanted to give her a proper death.

 

[Bogie 2.0]

23 hours ago, deanb said:

It's otherwise the highest grossing film of 2017, and it was only out for the last two weeks of 2017, so it must have done something right.

Like I said before, that doesn't mean much seeing as there's still no real evaluation of its ROI. But the point I was making is that with SW showing symptoms of losing its appeal, which never happened before, pumping them out like this without taking a breather seems unwise.
 

23 hours ago, deanb said:

I'd say the thing that rubbed people the wrong way with TLJ is that it had a different director, a director who wasn't going to go in and pretend they were someone else but instead was their own thing. And really that's a tactic that's working pretty damn well for Disney *points to the entirety of the massively mind boggling successful MCU*. The last time Star Wars had the same director helming all the films with a homogeneous feel was the prequels all being directed by Lucas and as we all know they're universally loved.

I’ve heard/read more criticisms pointing to the movie itself. The Chinese audiences, for example, according to the most upvoted reviews on their Rotten Tomatoes-like Douban, are filled with complaints like “insults the audiences’ intelligence”, “incompetent braindead Galactic Empire” and even the concept of 白左 keeps popping up. Other reasons, like some of my friends’, are simply that it was a sucky movie with an awful deus ex machina – which Rian Johnson justified with a non-canon book for some reason, as he did for the Leia's thing -- totally missing the point. There are tons of reasons why many people couldn’t get into it and with the prequels still ranking higher, for example, on the RT’s audience score compared to The Last Jedi, I dunno, that doesn't seem to be the problem for me.
 

23 hours ago, deanb said:

Also Lukes split-second action is pretty much in-line with Luke of old. He's shown frequently as impatient and impulsive as opposed to the "sit in darkened rooms and meditate" Jedi of old. Both Yoda and Obi-wan had fears on his leanings towards the dark side and it's always been a consistent undercurrent to him.

But he raised above all expectations and saved the galaxy with what really differentiated him from all others: hope. Moreover, unlike Vader (which had all those same traits), we didn’t see his complete shift happening in the movies or anywhere else for that matter seeing as they dumped the expanded universe that even touched on that.
 

@TheMightyEthan Then you would consider The Force Awakens to be a fluke? And I think they would point you to Jumanji crushing it in the US box office for the 3rd weekend straight as a middle finger

 

@Hot Heart

Edited January 29, 2018 by Bogie 2.0

[TheMightyEthan]

@Bogie 2.0 I don't see what TFA doing well in China has to do with anything I said. I said TLJ is less action-driven and therefore is more difficult to translate across cultures. That does not apply to TFA. If anything I think the fact that TFA did well helps my point.

 

I also don't see what Jumanji doing well has to do with anything. I've heard it's a good movie. TLJ has been out longer so you would expect it to be bringing in less in any particular week. If you want to compare box office like that you need to compare Jumanji to where TLJ was after the same amount of time since release.

[Bogie 2.0]

Oops, my bad! I thought you were implying something along those lines seeing as: this became a quality vs success discussion out of nowhere, this being a SW thread and Force Awakens belonging to neither of those two genres you've mentioned (at least in my book). And the Jumanji bit was just a lil’ joke pertaining your observation, but either way comparing TLJ to Jumanji wouldn’t help anyone since we would be putting jumanji  against freaking STAR WARS.

[Thursday Next]

I don't think you can use China as a yard-stick for anything. World of Warcraft bombed everywhere except China, doesn't mean it is an objectively bad or good film. Just that something in it appealed to Chinese audiences but not to Western ones.

 

From a sheer dollar perspective, TLJ was a roaring success. Disney will definitely continue with the plan for IX in December 2019, they'd take a hammering on Wall Street if they suddenly pulled the last episode of a trilogy that investors were counting on to bring in some guaranteed billions just to give the franchise a rest.

 

The complaints from fans are largely fit into the "I was fine with people changing things up until I learned all the rules, but now nobody else is allowed to change anything any more." camp. We were fine with the force just being good reflexes, telekinesis and a ghost of some sort. Then we were fine with lightning coming out of people's fingers because why not, then we were fine with long distance telepathic communication, then we were fine with lightsabers blocking electricity flying out of people's fingers, and Yoda catching lightning in his hands.

 

Spoiler

Why are we now not fine with Leia pulling herself onto a ship in zero g? Assuming she can survive limited time in extreme cold and vacuum (any human can do this for a very limited time) then if she pulls a ship toward herself in zero gravity, it makes newtonian sense that she would also be pulled toward it. I mean, we're all on board with the concept that Jedi can survive hostile cold environments (Luke on Hoth) with limited O2 (Luke on Bespin) and catastrophic physical damage (Anakin on Mustafa) and we're all comfortable with Jedi moving mass with their minds. So what's the problem here? Similarly we are familiar with Luke calling out to Leia and Leia "hearing" him on Bespin. So why is Force Skyping (or ForceTime) such a leap?

 

In any event, I liked TFA and TLJ, I like that they are changing the paradigm, making the world more grey and nuanced and less black and white.

[Bogie 2.0]

7 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

I don't think you can use China as a yard-stick for anything. World of Warcraft bombed everywhere except China, doesn't mean it is an objectively bad or good film. Just that something in it appealed to Chinese audiences but not to Western ones.

Good, you shouldn't! No one said that -- I certainly didn't! --, so who are you guys arguing against here? Also: It didn't bombed in Europe and western Russia (which is impressive considering what it was up against), becoming one of the most successful stinkers of all time. Although, thinking now about it, the movie did receive good-to-rave reviews throughout Europe for example (not that we should really care but still).

As for the rest: That's all fine and dandy, but everyone you've mentioned had some sort of training, some even being masters. How did we went from two powerhouses messing around with lightning to sudden jedi mind tricks in TFA and surviving that explosion + flying through space with no training whatsoever? Even the chosen one wasn't capable of that much without proper training. Also, the Luke scene wasn't unbelievable per se in the SW universe -- again, no one said that --, but introducing it like that as a part of the resolution of the climax?

 

Quote

 

In any event, I liked TFA and TLJ, I like that they are changing the paradigm, making the world more grey and nuanced and less black and white.

 

Some would argue that Rey's whole existence throws a wreNtch into that view .

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Bogie 2.0
without that N, wouldn't that mean she was throwing herself into it?

[Thursday Next]

I'm not arguing against anyone. I was just saying that Chinese performance is pretty irrelevant, and that success (or not) in any particular market is not indicative of quality.

 

Spoiler

 

You just assume that Leia had no training. They couldn't exactly do a Luke / Leia training montage could they? But it does make sense that she would have learned some stuff from her brother while her son was attending his Jedi summer camp doesn't it? It's not even like flying through space is even hard. Just throw an object in the opposite direction you want to travel and you start flying. The amount of "Force" required would be minimal compared to say lifting a submerged X-Wing out of a swamp against planetary gravity.

 

 

I genuinely have no idea what you mean by the Rey comment at the end btw.  

[Bogie 2.0]

2 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

I'm not arguing against anyone. I was just saying that Chinese performance is pretty irrelevant, and that success (or not) in any particular market is not indicative of quality.

Just a random platitude to spice up the thread then, gotcha!

Isn’t it indicative of bad writing when the audiences need to even assume that? Even just a passing remark would’ve helped: “my brother and I did other things besides making out, you know!” They neither showed nor told. Regarding the Dagobah scene, Luke was in good shape – no massive explosions here –, already training with Yoda and had time to focus, AND still only managed to barely make a few bubbles.
 

2 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

I genuinely have no idea what you mean by the Rey comment at the end btw.  

Assuming you've noticed the missing consonant , I'm saying that grey areas wouldn't have a Mary Sue-ish type character (to which I argue she undoubtedly is). Also, I lack your enthusiasm for the 'blurring the line' thing seeing as it's something almost every franchise has been doing for quite a while, but to each his own.

 

 

[deanb]

Pretty much the entire Skywalker family has been shown to be pretty damn strong intuitive force users. On Hoth Luke grabbed his lightsaber without any training(in fact I'm fairly sure that's the first on-screen use of telekinesis, I can't remember Obi-Wan doing much except mind tricks), Anakin had inhuman podracing skills (like literally mentioned that no humans can do podracing), and even in the OT Leia was shown to be able to use the force to sense others, so being able to pull herself to a ship in zero-g should be fairly instinctive survival tactic. It wasn't like she was pulling star destroyers out of the sky or blocking laser pistol bolts.

 

I had issues with it from a film view point in the "fake out" side of things, but from a Star Wars lore side of things have absolutely no issue with the daughter of Anakin/Vader and twin sister of Luke and an already known force user in using the force in a minimal way.

 

It's not like anyone hinted at her being on par with Luke in anyway...

[Bogie 2.0]

@deanb That scene in Hoth is from the second movie so not only was telekinesis already established in the first movie, he also had + 3 years of studying the force with Yoda. Anakin was literally Jesus and that movie it still pummeled to this day for many stuff including that. OT Leia passively sensing Luke’s well-being and receiving Luke’s call for help are a long way to TLJ Leia I think.
 

6 hours ago, deanb said:

I had issues with it from a film view point in the "fake out" side of things, but from a Star Wars lore side of things have absolutely no issue with the daughter of Anakin/Vader and twin sister of Luke and an already known force user in using the force in a minimal way.

Sure, that’s your prerogative. Older twin sister if we add time dilation into the mix .
 

6 hours ago, deanb said:

It's not like anyone hinted at her being on par with Luke in anyway...

[Yoda being his usual ominous self]

Had the potential, you mean. If the grandson of Anakin is coming late to the party what would his twin sister be then? Besides a plot contrivance, I mean.
____

Thinking about the way this thread's going: How does comparing the faults of an old and ground-breaking trilogy with a lower budget (combined and adjusted accordingly) than that of The Last Jedi’s, or even comparing it to one of the most lambasted movies in the whole franchise, help TLJ’s or TFW’s case at all?

[Thursday Next]

I'm not for a second suggesting that TFA or TLJ are perfect films. They are fun science fantasy kids films. Are there little things that could be improved (like hinting at Leia's powers) sure, but are they complete dumpster fires as a result? No way.

 

Luke doesn't go to Dagobah until after Hoth. So he does the TK thing without any formal training, we first see Luke being taught to lift things by Yoda after Hoth. People spontaneously using previously unmentioned Jedi powers is par for the course.

 

Rey is not remotely a Mary Sue. If she is, then Anakin is a Mary Sue and so is Luke. Luke blew up a Death Star with nothing but Obi Wan whispering in his head to "use the force" and some practice shooting wamprats back home. Anakin blew up a Droid control ship aged about 5, despite having never flown a starfighter before, let alone being trained in one, or seeing plans of the enemy ship to identify its one hit weakness. By contrast Rey does... what exactly in TFA?

Spoiler

Fights an already wounded Kylo Ren to a standstill, with help from a former stormtrooper until she is rescued by Chewie? And in TLJ, she gets captured, almost executed, defeats some non-Jedi in a 2 v 12 fight (not exactly a fair fight when we've seen other powerful Jedi make mincemeat of dozens of enemies solo), fails to turn Ren to the light side, and lifts some rocks while Luke sacrifices himself and Chewie swings by to rescue everyone (again). Rey doesn't destroy the starkiller base, she doesn't defeat Snoke, she doesn't defeat Kylo, she doesn't destroy the Supremacy, she barely scrapes by.

 

Edited to add spoiler tags.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Thursday Next

[Bogie 2.0]

5 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

I'm not for a second suggesting that TFA or TLJ are perfect films. They are fun science fantasy kids films. Are there little things that could be improved (like hinting at Leia's powers) sure, but are they complete dumpster fires as a result? No way.

 

Sure, but again: who’s suggesting that? You weren’t and I certainly was not. Well, the original trilogy was targeted not only to scifi enthusiasts but also to the whole family, with only the prequels being targeted specifically kids – or so George Lucas suddenly claimed when faced with (valid) criticism. But as a kid I disliked the Phantom Menace for it being a mess and full of non-sequiturs (although I loved Darth Maul) so branding something as “fun science fantasy kids” as an excuse (again, for the lack of a better word) seems misguided.
 

5 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

Luke doesn't go to Dagobah until after Hoth. So he does the TK thing without any formal training, we first see Luke being taught to lift things by Yoda after Hoth. People spontaneously using previously unmentioned Jedi powers is par for the course.

Oh you are indeed completely right there! Hum. Check! My move: Luke did more than fire blasters like Leia in the New Hope and ESB begins quite some time after one (read the theatrical crawl), so a conditioned Luke already proficient with a lightsaber – then implicit to be a Jedi’s weapon so I'm not including Finn here –, force pulling with much effort wasn’t that of a stretch. Also, as I’ve said before, I don’t know how this is helping the new trilogy seeing as the New Hope was supposed to be standalone.  

5 hours ago, Thursday Next said:

(1) If she is, then Anakin is a Mary Sue and so is Luke. (2) Luke blew up a Death Star with nothing but Obi Wan whispering in his head to "use the force" and some practice shooting wamprats back home. (3) By contrast Rey does... what exactly in TFA? Fights an already wounded Kylo Ren to a standstill, with help from a former stormtrooper until she is rescued by Chewie? (4) [TLJ's stuff]

(1) Anakin was the most hated character until Rey came along – and he’s freaking Jesus. Btw, that would make him Gary Stu. (2) Nothing but the helping hand of 8 Y-wings and 21 x-wings . There’s also been a long ongoing debate if Luke even used the force with the missiles. But again, the New Hope was a different beast with admittedly awful editing like Biggs “best bush pilot” remark not appearing on the theatrical version. (3) Pilots the millennium falcon like a pro, defeats an immensely powerful but wounded jedi(?) while doing some pretty big force pulls on her lightsaber. (4) Dude, I think you should hide those spoilers for those who haven’t seen the movie All that's just to move the plot and barely any fault of hers. A Mary Sue is a concept of wish fulfillment of the author, but with the author here being social pressures – i.e. strong female character meaning perfect character – I call her that. Luke and Anakin definitely had them. And unless IX reveals she’s in any way related to Jesus – it would be another case of bad writing –, her capabilities will forever be branded as being part of such my many detractors.