Star Wars

[TheMightyEthan]

The EU is anything not in the movies.  Most of it was made non-canon by Disney, Clone Wars and Rebels remain canon but they're still EU.

[Mr. GOH!]

As I've said elsewhere, the Star Wars TV shows have as much impact on the movies as Agents of Shield has on the MCU. They're both afterthoughts meant to monetize the properties, not essential canon narratives.

[deanb]

*Looks at the RC BB-8 that went on sale months before Episode VII*

 

Also the EU is now "Legends" for...4 years now I think, and covers all the comics n books n holiday specials and shit that was not hands-on. But as it stands with the new stuff given Disney have a much tighter grip on it (and more star systems slip out their grasp) and only a handful of things non-Episodes (including this thing called "Rogue One" that came out last week...where's that come on the spectrum given it has Saw Gerrera of Clone Wars in it, which given the IRL chronology can't be an afterthought to the movie given the show ended before Rogue One was even scripted?) currently exist in canon because of it. Wiki have a nice handy list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#Canon_works

And a bit about the sort of MCU-esque group that runs it:

http://www.dailydot.com/parsec/star-wars-celebration-lucasfilm-story-group/

 

If you were to go with a super-strict "nothing except the mainline movies counts" then Hux blew up several completely inconsequential unnamed planets from a base operated by magically materialised storm troopers.

 

I'd say it's fine to be dismissive of the EU canon-icty given there was like multiple levels of canon and it was a mess spanning over 30 years of produced material covering several thousand years of Star Wars history, but the new canon is pretty tight given Disney decided to give a shit.

 

Wether you delve into any of it is up to you, but kinda crap to totally dismisses a bunch of shows you've never even bothered watching.

[Thursday Next]

I didn't say anything about "main movies" or "episodes". I just said that not movie = EU, which I have always said is my jumping off point for Star Wars. Watching the EU or not notwhithstanding, it doesn't make sewing Darth Maul back together again any less fan-service.

[deanb]

Remembered there's another dude whos got even less of him left than like any other Star Wars dude:

 

But nooo robot legs are a huge stretch for the series.

 

Anywho: You're not the only one mentioning EU, even though as mentioned EU became Legends years ago and none of that counts and Disney/Lucasfilm in their place have been quite picky on what is and isn't canon.

 

And in things only being in the shows for fan service how come none of you have brought up this dude either:

 

Who up until last year was only in the EU/Legends and not canon but now is because he's in that show none of you watch. And he was a bit of a fan favourite in the EU worlds, so his returning/bringing into the fold of the Disney Canon is pretty fan servicey.

 

Edit: This guy is also in Rebels which is another fan servicey thing:

 

Given he's the original Chewbacca:

[Thursday Next]

Grievous was naff as well, not disputing that for a moment (though a quick google says that he willing underwent cybernetic conversion - so again, different to being chopped up and thrown down a well). I've no idea who that blue guy is. The movies are not without stupid fan-service either, for example, Anakin building C3PO is a bunch of nonsense that added nothing of any value to the point that they clumsily wipe his memory to fix all the continuity errors it brings about. To be clear I'm not dissing the cartoons or any of the other EU stuff.

 

All I'm saying is that Darth Maul coming back is lame fan service made more lame by the fact that he was a rubbish villain first time around.

[Mr. GOH!]

Bringing up prequel shenanigans to defend Darth Maul is funny, because the prequels are 90% utter garbage. Grievous was cool in the superlative Genndy Tartakovsky series, but sort of goofy in RotS.

 

Thrawn in the new continuity is also terrible fan service.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Mr. GOH!

[CorgiShinobi]

I didn't say anything about "main movies" or "episodes". I just said that not movie = EU, which I have always said is my jumping off point for Star Wars. Watching the EU or not notwhithstanding, it doesn't make sewing Darth Maul back together again any less fan-service.

 

Man, everyone here lumping Rebels and anything post-Disney acquisition into the EU/Legends would get torn apart from the rapid fanbase that hates anything Stars Wars with the Disney logo in it. Like, there is a fanbase that grew up on Legends stories and will defend it like holy scripture (tacky as half of it may be).

 

EU/Legends is very distinctively different in Star Wars. It's not the difference between grey and gray, it's almost like comparing the sky to the sea. It's not up to personal interpretation of the usage of "EU" to describe anything outside of the films. Not to mention, if you only count films, you have to lump in the god awful The Clone Wars film. It was in theaters, so I guess you have to filter it even further with live action films.

 

EDIT: Now granted the film Rogue One and the series Rebels would normally be "extended universe," it just unfortunately has to contend with the decades of content that was generated before Disney. That's mainly why you'll see "Legends" used now, but be aware that there was a library of once canonical media that practically built Star Wars behind the silver screen.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Atomsk88

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm just using "EU" to mean "Extended Universe", meaning anything not in the films. I am not using it as any kind of a value judgement, so the fact that some of the films are bad is irrelevant.

[TCP]

Bringing up prequel shenanigans to defend Darth Maul is funny, because the prequels are 90% utter garbage. Grievous was cool in the superlative Genndy Tartakovsky series, but sort of goofy in RotS.

 

Thrawn in the new continuity is also terrible fan service.

IS THERE ANY PLEASING YOU!!??!

[Mr. GOH!]

Yes; Rogue One pleased me. But the EU has not pleased me since the mid-90's, when I didn't know any better.

[Hot Heart]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the Star Wars thread!

[CorgiShinobi]

Yes; Rogue One pleased me. But the EU has not pleased me since the mid-90's, when I didn't know any better.

 

Even though one of the supporting characters came directly from The Clone Wars?

 

And the Rebels influences too, but I can leave those a mystery if it would ruin your perception of the film. There are quite a number of them.

 

I'm just saying guys, no one can forever ignore the content outside of the films. That content begins to shape the films and content we're going to be seeing heading forward. Even before Disney, Lucas himself did incorporate elements of Legends into the Episodes too. Take the Outrider, Dash Rendar's ship from Shadows of the Empire. With the Special Edition, that ship was added to A New Hope seen flying over Mos Eisley.

 

The real kicker? When Disney acquired Star Wars, they couldn't just deny a ship that's present in A New Hope now. So the Outrider is canon, but Dash Rendar himself is still non-canon. That's right, in Star Wars we have a ship with no pilot!

[deanb]

Yeah the EU/Legends is a pretty defined thing and not just "anything that isn't a film", which yeah as Atomsk points out includes The Clone Wars. You can take it or leave it in watching the non-episode stuff but it's there and it's canon. Disney didn't spend several billion, scrub the entire pre-existing EU and set up a story group to keep all the plates spinning canon-wise for folks to be "well this isn't really Star Wars".

 

In other news despite literally just doing the same for Cushing and a younger Fisher Disney have officially come out and said they've no plans to digitally recreate Carrie Fisher:

http://www.starwars.com/news/a-statement-regarding-new-rumors

 

And also Woody Harrelson confirmed as Han Solos mentor on the totally not fan servicey Young Han Solo film.

[TheMightyEthan]

No one said it's not canon, or that it's not really Star Wars...

[Mr. GOH!]

The throwaway references to Rebels didn't bother me because they're not important at all. Saw Gerrera is a different story, because he didn't seem very fleshed out as a character at all. I thought his inclusion was weak. I attributed it to the reshoots cutting/changing a lot of his stuff, but if his role was circumscribed and vague so that it wouldn't conflict with the cartoons, well, that just goes to show that the movies should not be altered to fit the EU.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, it's fine to include little nods to the EU stuff that people who watch it will get, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't detract from the movie for the large portion of the audience that has only watched the movies. Saw Gerrera was handled badly. Like GOH I just thought it was awkwardness due to the production problems the movie had until you guys said he was from the cartoons.

[deanb]

@TME: You carry on lumping the shows in with the EU, which isn't canon.

 

@GOH: I'd guess it was more down to the reshoots than the shows. There was nothing in the film version that felt off from his show version, especially given there's like a 20 year difference between the two. His main things brought over is he's one of the earliest and most militarised rebels having being a rebel during the clone wars, and he's kinda separate from humanity in having lost his sister to the CIS. Rebels did a better job in filling in the "what has he been up to since", but hey the films > the shows right.

[TheMightyEthan]

No, the Legends aren't canon. EU is a general, non-Star-Wars-specific term for all the canon stuff not in the main series of whatever it is.

[deanb]

https://youtu.be/ZRFrY8NFfAQ

 

What a weird scene.

[Thursday Next]

Atomsk88: The reason I have no idea that the EU is subdivided into EU/Legends is because I don't set foot outside of the (live action) theatrical releases, I know as much about the difference between EU and Legends as I do about Shiite and Sunni.

 

I had no idea that "The Clone Wars" was a theatrical release but yes, I wouldn't count it because it isn't live action.

 

Everyone:  As Ethan said, none of this is a value judgement on the EU, or questioning whether or not it is canon. If Disney say it is canon, good for them. If you say you enjoy it, good for you.

 

I literally just said that Darth Maul is (a) A crap villain, and (b) Bringing him back is lame fan service. Those are both my opinions on those distinct elements, bringing up other things that you think are rubbish will not affect the rubbishness of Darth Maul in my opinion. Bringing up the fan serviceness of other things will not affect that I find bringing back Darth Maul lame and fan servicey. None of this impacts on whether or not the Han Solo film is (a) fan service (it is) or (b) whether or not it is lame (we'll see). 

 

I will however say that a film about Han's *past* is waaay less lame than say, doing a sequel spin off to Episode VIII showing that Han survived being gutted by a light saber and falling into an abyss because he really wanted to see Leia again, or thought he left the oven on, or he hadn't double locked the front door and used that emotion to cling on to life as seems to happen whenever they want to bring back a sith in the EU. It would also be pretty lame if Han came back as a force ghost, even if he is a bit force sensitive, he's nowhere near Yoda, or Obi Wan, or Anakin, or Qui-Gon (or anyone else who seems to have learned what was supposed to be a super hardcore talent but is now available to all and sundry).

[deanb]

But it's a bit like being all "well Neville Longbottom is a bit of a crap character" "What about the bit where he pulls Sword of Gryffindor out of the Sorting Hat n kills Nagini?" "Oh I didn't read past Philosophers Stone". (or something to that effect, heck I guess better analogy would be someone who only watched the films but didn't read the books. I guess the Battle of Hobbiton would be better to put here).

 

I guess I'm trying to articulate I find yours n others opinions a bit lacking in validity given staunchly refusing to actually bother following any of the totally canon shows and making your own judgement on him being crap or it being fan servicey to bring him back. If they just brought him back and had him going around doing ninja jumps with a double bladed lightsaber I'd be inclined to agree, but he doesn't and none of you guys will know, nor seem to care that that's the case. None of you noticed that those of us here that actually watch the shows all agree he's a pretty damn fine villain, and all of you who won't watch the show think he's a crap fan servicey villain.

 

I guess that's my be all and end all on it. Feel free to continue amongst yourselves.

 

Anywho a cool fan servicey bit in recent rebels was the infiltrator droid totally being a blue Ralph McQuarrie C3-P0:

 

Which is cool. (now I'd definitely say basing a lot of the characters and art style of Rebels on Ralph McQuarrie stuff is fan servicey, in a tasteful way).

[Mr. GOH!]

The shows are official canon for the purposes of getting people invested in them. But they really don't matter when it comes to the movies because Disney does not want to scare people away by making the movies rely on non-movie narratives. I think we all agree about this, yes? 

 

I tried to follow The Clone Wars, as I have said elsewhere, but the episodes I saw were utter kids TV show garbage. I'm not gonna spend hours of my life filtering through just so I can argue about how crap Darth Maul was as a villain. Maybe he was better in the TV show, but that matters not a whit to me, you're right. It also does not really matter a whit to the movie continuity.

[TCP]

I enjoyed it but Clone Wars was definitely not as great as people say. It did have great story lines, but it also had story lines that were indistinguishable from the others, story lines that didn't add anything, and others that were just boring. While bringing Maul back was cheesy, it did lead to some good moments. But it was all unnecessary, they should have kept him dead and used whatever-the-fuck was the name of the guy that was one of his people. It would make sense if Maul had a brother or whatever trying to avenge him and kill Obi.

Rebels is much better but it's definitely 'kiddy'. I know at the end of the day it's a franchise primarily to sell toys to kids but I never felt that The Force Awakens or Rogue One were children's films.
The TV shows not really counting with the movies is also a problem with Marvel. In my opinion, they're underestimating their audiences in not recognizing Luke Cage or Daredevil. If nothing else they could definitely tip their hat to those shows in an easter egg or small reference. It's especially frustrating because a lot of the TV-Marvel like Jessica Jones and Daredevil, is better than a lot of the movies. I mean, it's not as bad as DC where they'll kill characters off in the TV show because the films want to use them, even though they're not related, but it'd be nice if in Infinity War, The Defenders and Coulson's SHIELD team showed up to help out, even just for a scene. 

[CorgiShinobi]

I wouldn't be able to get away with calling Rebels "kiddy." I get what people mean by it, but that's like The Force Awakens. One moment our protagonists are joking with each other, the next people are straight up dying in the thousands. That's what has kinda bugged me about Rebels. It's lighthearted, but sometimes it's jarring how cheery the protagonists can be compared to protagonists of mature-rated media where the reaction is normally straight-faced.

 

Last episode the rebels redirected a droid with a proton warhead back to a Star Destroyer. We get to see two Imperial techs essentially witness the last three seconds of their life and then it transitions to the Star Destroyer being blown in half. Mind you this wasn't during a battle, this was just normal routine for these crew members. Next scene, "Hey that was a good idea. Keep up the good work." I mean, it was but don't be so damn happy about it.

 

As for The Clone Wars and why I bothered making beef with everyone who hasn't seen it.

 

One of my pet peeves is "Going Green Eggs and Ham." Practically badgering someone to try something good, but they constantly refuse because of weak justification. I don't like to because, hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion and we all come to expect different reactions and outcomes from different content.

 

In example, someone doesn't want to watch the Daredevil Netflix series because "Daredevil sucks" based on the atrocious film many years ago. "But it's still Daredevil, and he sucks." It's not the same actor, not the same writers, not even the same studio, but "it sucks."

 

Arguing that a character as a whole is terrible gets you into sticky situations. You then get into scenarios where you have to factor in practically all of their appearances. If someone told me Batman is a terrible superhero, I damn as sure want to know why. "Well, I mean, did you see Batman & Robin?" Oh yeah, that film sucked. "Well, there you go!" Yeah, but have you seen Batman Begins or Dark Knight?

 

"Uh, why would I? Batman is terrible and I don't want to waste my time."

 

 

Now TV series are even trickier. They do require more of a commitment. I feel that many people have come to accept that if someone has seen a season or two and didn't like it, that's fair. There could be better seasons later, but the damage is done and there's no way of truly trying to convince someone to stick around. I would just make a point that one could not speak on the entire quality of the series because that is not in their experience. They have the right to say they didn't like it, what they saw was terrible, and they're fully justified in their inclination to not watch anymore. It's what happened with The Legend of Korra and its shockingly subpar Book 2.

 

I stopped watching Adventure Time partway into Season 6 because it no longer interested in me and felt the last episodes I watched had no significance and the series was turning into a proverbial carrot-on-a-stick. I don't say the entire show sucks however because I know there's more content that I haven't bothered to watch (and I do like the first half). I've caught a few newer episodes here and there, but it's no longer for me. I still listen to friends who watch it and I've bothered to see some of their recommendations. While they were good, it still felt I was dumpster diving for the bits I would be interested in. They can respect that because they too recognize the show has become very polarized and half the charm isn't quite there.

 

How does this all relate back to The Clone Wars?  Well, again, I can't see an opinion being valid for an entire series based on a small percentage of experience. It would be like telling our dear Cowboy Poet that I don't like the Uncharted series because Uncharted 1 was mediocre. Flabbergasted, he would question me about 2-4 while secretly searching for a knife.

 

"Oh, didn't play them because Uncharted is mediocre at best."

 

 

But you know, whatever. I truly don't expect anyone to go through five seasons to rid the taste of Season 1 (most everyone agrees Season 1 is bad). For me, The Clone Wars is what made me still a fan of Star Wars after the Prequel Trilogy. It took the framework of setting and characters and made them 100 times better. Rather than Anakin being a one dimensional twat, he actually has a character in The Clone Wars. Obi-wan actually gets to do some exciting things rather than being the Jedi Council errand boy (and Anakin's babysitter). The Clone Troopers have character instead of voice lines! Sometimes I just wanted to watch Rex, Cody, or Fives instead of some Jedi Council member. Even the Clones who die off after two episodes build upon the world and affect our main characters.

 

Posted below is a video that, while I'm not a fan of YouTube mannerisms, lists a general idea why fans both pre-Disney and post-Disney enjoy and recommend the series. However, I've timestamped the video at the segment where it lists some of the excellent series arcs that build upon all of Star Wars. There are other excellent arcs, but if you only had a few hours, these would be worth your time.

 

EDIT: Eh, media tag doesn't like timestamps? I dunno, maybe mods can fix it, but just copy-paste.

 

And have at it. This will mark the second time this forum has discussed The Clone Wars and I don't really expect much to happen because this is essentially deja vu from last time. We're all set in our ways of what we want from movies, games, and books. Hell, I'm not even a big fan of Darth Maul, I'm a Vader kinda guy. Half of that comes from the games and comic books he has been featured in versus just the films. It's the same for fans of Boba Fett. They don't like him only because of the films, because frankly he has little character in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi combined. It's all the other media he has appeared in that make people fans of him. I understand it though because Qui-Gon Jinn is the same way for me. Little justification to be a fan of his in Phantom Menace, but his influence in The Clone Wars and print media do make him the wise, multi-layered, and a powerful sage like what was intended.

 

P.S.

 

Dual-bladed lightsabers turning into helicopters is embarrassing and I don't blame anyone for thinking little of Rebels because of it. If they were used to slow one's descent, cool. Actually flying though is ridiculous and whoever brainstormed that idea should be ashamed.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Atomsk88