Spoilers

[deanb]

So here was an interesting article RTed into my feed by Kieron Gillen earlier:

http://www.reactionzine.com/poor-community-spirit/

 

It kind of talks about how spoilers are classist to a degree, favouring the rich over the poor. I guess I can sympathise with the argument given I'm not really in a position to be buying games at launch. In the case of Infinite the only reason I had it at launch was due to Chewblaha pre-ordering it for me. Dishonored is a relatively recent game I've played that I also had spoiled for me ahead of time due to reading Tenshi's article on the games plot elements (I could maybe have opted out, but would be bad manners for editor to do so). I find to a large degree too if you're late to the party you might as well have not bothered coming along at all. Sparking discussion (anywhere, not just here) months after a games release can be quite a struggle. And if you're quite into the water cooler nature of gaming then it's a bit of a bummer.

 

 

Skipping the classism stuff, generally I'm fine with spoilers, I'm in the camp that knowing spoilers ahead of time can enrich the experience. If I found spoilers ruined the experience I wouldn't be playing FFIX multiple times knowing the true nature of Zidane, Vivi and Dagger. It helps make sign posts, elements of the game might otherwise have ignored, more notable along the way. Rare is the occasion for someone else to be able to so fully spoil a game (or film) ahead of time that all surprise is lost anyway. They'd need to get pretty specific to do so.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

What a load of shit.

[TheMightyEthan]

I can see how it would be somewhat classist, but it's the nature of the beast.  The only way to solve the problem is to tell people they're not allowed to talk about anything until years after release, which is patently ridiculous.

 

The fact of the matter is that games are a luxury, and if you can't afford it that sucks, but it's not like you have some right to be part of the discussion immediately after launch and can demand others wait for you.  And I say this as someone who cannot afford to buy every game I want at or near launch.

[deanb]

I don't think the expectation is to keep hold of spoilers for years after release, maybe a few months is always nice (and certainly not within a couple of days, before even launched to rest of the world, as our favourites gaming site did with Arkham City). And it's not necessarily the issue of the spoilers themselves but the reaction around them to people who haven't played the games immediately.

 

Games being a luxury as an absolute truth is likely a matter for another thread though.

 

@Tenshi: eloquently stated counter discussion.

 

I guess another discussion on the topic (I was tired so didn't throw this section in):

How long till spoilers are accepted as common knowledge or not needing to be protected any longer. For example as it stands on here story spoilers are in a two year range.

[Eleven]

If you venture into a board where they discuss a game at length, when the game has been out for months, it's your fault for getting spoiled. As he conceded, people have been kind enough to not spoil Infinite early in it's life, and only after a few months did that vanish.

 

I don't think it's clear in the article how he ventured into spoilers. In my experience, that attitude he's talking about is what you get for venturing into a discussion about a game at length about a game that has been out for months. People do apologize for spoiling stuff accidentally on thread titles and posts. People who have finished the game also call out people who spoil stuff, so mods or whoever can act fast.

 

 

Whenever I hear the typical retort that gaming is a luxury, all that I can think of is that other apologist mantra: “women don’t game.” We lowly peasants are already here – you just don’t recognise us because you’ve shamed us into silence.

 

Uh... what??? Games cost 60 bucks a pop. It IS a luxury.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

Well, it is. Everybody's a victim. Boo-hoo.

 

At some point someone just has to be like, "No, fuck you and the horse you claim you couldn't ride in on."

[TheMightyEthan]

I think that generally speaking it's accepted practice to mark your spoilers as such if you're within any kind of reasonable time frame of release, and people who intentionally don't are generally considered to be jerks, so I'm not even really sure what his point is?  The first half of the article sounds to me like he's saying "don't talk about games for a long time after release, because I want to be part of the discussion but by the time I can afford it the discussion is over".  Which, again, sucks, and I've been in that position, but it seems incredibly selfish to say "you shouldn't talk about this thing until I can afford to experience it and join in."

 

The second half of the article seems to just be lamenting that games are expensive, and I don't really understand the point he's trying to make about that.  Yes, games are expensive, and yes it sucks that you can't afford to buy every/any new game at launch, but you don't need them either.

 

I think the article would probably have been a lot better if he had better articulated what he wants to change, rather than just lamenting the current state of things.  As it is my reaction is just "I can kind of see where you're coming from, but what do you suggest should change to make it better?"  Because at the moment the problems he's talking about seem to be just inherent in the medium, and not really something that can be addressed.

 

As far as how long after release do unmarked spoilers become okay, I think it's all about context and the importance of the spoiler.  If you're in a discussion about the game then obviously spoilers are more expected than if you're just in some random thread about something only tangentially related.  Like, Mass Effect 3 is just over a year old, but if you go into a Mass Effect thread and get spoiled for the ending of it, then sorry, that sucks, but you should have seen that coming.  If you go into a thread about player agency in videogames, though, then that should probably still be clearly marked as a spoiler.

 

@Tenshi:  Wow.  You have like 0 empathy for other people.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

I do have empathy, Ethan. I've been in the same situation, and I understand that spoilers suck (I try to avoid spoiling things for other people).

 

The difference is that I didn't write an article about how woefully slighted I am by classism and the industry.

 

Edit: And personally, I try to avoid spreading spoilers for anything, or only doing so when using a spoiler tag or warning is an option. It doesn't matter how old it is.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Saturnine Tenshi

[TheRevanchist]

Funny.  I always think of those who have new games as living at home with parents or single with all kinds of free time.  Heck, even getting free time to play games is a chore, and it ususally takes me a couple of months to complete a game on a console, maybe a few weeks if on a handheld or the phone.

 

So, I have no empathy regarding spoilers (I'm probably a dick for being like that), but I also make a point to not spoil games for others, as I'm so far behind on my backlog.  I'm pretty sure I'll catch up on my current games half way through the next gen of consoles.

[Mal]

If you have any interest at all for a series, you avoid it like your life depends on it. Loads of people did it for the ASOIAF (Game of Thrones) series. That have been out for about two decades... are people pose to wait for your late informed ass? After a little time on the internet, you should know where to go out to avoid to escape the spoilers. Like it or not, it is up to the late consumer to protect themselves.

 

Not to say that the early birds should be nice... I say the cut off line for marking spoilers is about one year or so. Two or beyond for some great stuff (I am your father or they send their regards moments).

[Alex Heat]

I would say the statute of limitations on spoilers for me is between six months and a year.

 

Being a writer (and just being well aware of tropes and conventions), I'm not too bothered by spoilers because seldom do the Tweests™ surprise me.  Hell, sometimes a spoiler can just make me anticipate the moment because spoilers typically don't describe things in detail.

 

As for the article, I'm pretty sure everyone present has been in that position too.  Like Ethan said, it's the nature of the beast.  Not just in video games but in all forms of media.

[deanb]

As far as seeing spoilers, there's plenty of social networks where it's a jumble of much of everything and can be hard to avoid unmarked spoilers. You don't necessarily have to dive right into a post titled "Game that came out two days ago and what I think" to be spoiled.

 

And a fair chunk of his post on the elitism inherent with spoilers is kind of being proved here. 

 

On the luxury side of things, game don't necessarily have to cost that much (and increasingly with DLC and all that lot the price is going up even more).

[TheMightyEthan]

As far as seeing spoilers, there's plenty of social networks where it's a jumble of much of everything and can be hard to avoid unmarked spoilers. You don't necessarily have to dive right into a post titled "Game that came out two days ago and what I think" to be spoiled.

Yeah, and posting unmarked spoilers like that is a dick move, or at the least thoughtless (if done unthinkingly).

 

And a fair chunk of his post on the elitism inherent with spoilers is kind of being proved here. 

Okay, but again, what's the solution?  There has to be some point at which it becomes okay to casually mention stuff, or any discussion about media will be completely hampered.  How long until it's okay for me to mention that Darth Vader is Luke's father? (That one's been 33 years, am I good yet?)  Yes, people should try to be courteous, but if you get spoiled for something that's 2 years old that you hadn't been able to play yet, that sucks, but you can't expect people to be silent forever.  That is slightly classist in that not everyone can afford it, but we're talking about an entertainment medium, it's not like you have some inherent human right to play all games unspoiled.

 

On the luxury side of things, game don't necessarily have to cost that much (and increasingly with DLC and all that lot the price is going up even more).

They don't have to be that expensive, but it's an entertainment medium, you don't need it. I can't afford to buy every game I want either, but you don't hear me whining about it. Or go to every movie I'd like to see.

 

Waa, movie theaters are elitist.

 

Yeah, it sucks when (seemingly) everyone's talking about something that you haven't been able to afford to experience yet, but what's the solution? That the government nationalize games?

[Hot Heart]

Unfortunately, for an amateur critic like them, there is no real solution. Unless you're in a position where you're getting games sent to you, you'll always be behind the curve.

 

As far as spoilers go, it's usually fairly easy to avoid them. You just visit places that decent gamers and/or writers reside i.e. not comment sections. Though I don't think you can completely avoid it, unfortunately. Recently, someone (not from here) tweeted what might seem like an innocuous comment about TLoU, but it only fuelled my theory about something that proved to be right. The same goes for the general reaction to the end of Telltale's TWD, even though being completely vague with that one is more than enough.

 

If it's with regards to actual criticism and feeling out of the loop when it comes to discussion, I think that's something that needs to change, or will evolve as time goes by and it becomes a more 'legitimate' medium. Hundreds of films come and go, but the real classics are revered as such because they stand the test of time. I mean, take the most obvious: Citizen Kane. The film came out in 1941, but it wasn't really viewed as important until 1950 at the earliest and was reevaluated in the coming years (which is why it's even more ridiculous to declare something 'The Citizen Kane of gaming' in a review). If games are really culturally significant and worthy of such discussion, time will tell on that front.

[deanb]

@TME: Well sure there's a time it's okay to casually mention stuff. Most folks have already stated in the year+ realm, and a tad longer for some of the really out their stuff. Haven't said anything there's an indefinite/infinite period of time, in fact quite the opposite given I pointed out I put it into the forum rules to be 2 years, which I reckon is a time most would be fine with.

 

The solution I guess is for folks to not be dicks about it. Always seems a good solution to many things. The price point is a slightly different matter somewhat unrelated given, as mentioned, and even more so given the period of gaming time were in at this very moment, not always, or needing to be, £40 a pop.

 

Anyway it's kinda funny your response to Tenshi then being much the same with your "waa movie theaters" (Movie theaters are also only about a 1/5 of the cost).

 

Oh on other places that are hard to get from, the official trailer of FFX HD spoiled a pivotal twist of the story. Sure it's a 10 year old game, but not everyone has played it.

[Waldorf and Statler]

I tend to follow the rule in forums that game discussion of specific big plot elements should be spoiled at least after 6 months. Now if I hint over a spoiler, I try to be as vague as possible to the point where the people who have played the game would get it but others won't know the scope of what I mean. Problem is what I consider a spoiler or vagueness another person might consider a complete spoiler. If it's been a couple of months and you are just starting the game while a grand majority of those who have played it in a community have already discussed it to death but you have a question, post but don't read and only read responses to you or after you.

 

I like the Game of Thrones thread because it acknowledges a large part of us have read the books and are currently watching the show, so we can discuss book spoilers behind curtains while current episode spoilers are wide in the open. This establishes a clear line of "get the fuck out if you don't want at the least current episode spoilers".

 

Similarly the AV Club's method of reviewing these episodes of separating them between experts and newbies is a grand idea too.

 

All I know is that one of the things that really stresses me out is wanting to discuss something with a group of friends where the majority of you want to talk about it but one or two of them isn't there so a topic of conversation is kind of fucked due to it.

[TheMightyEthan]

@TME: Well sure there's a time it's okay to casually mention stuff. Most folks have already stated in the year+ realm, and a tad longer for some of the really out their stuff. Haven't said anything there's an indefinite/infinite period of time, in fact quite the opposite given I pointed out I put it into the forum rules to be 2 years, which I reckon is a time most would be fine with.

Oh yeah, sorry, at that part I was more arguing with the author of that article than with you.

 

The solution I guess is for folks to not be dicks about it. Always seems a good solution to many things.

What do you mean? I guess part of the problem with this discussion is we don't have the problem that we're discussing very well defined. Cause the impression I got from the article was just that he finds the entire idea of people wanting to discuss things he hasn't been able to buy yet to be unfair to him (the whole part about missing out on the discussion if he waits too long to get the game).

 

I agree people shouldn't be dicks, just as a general proposition.

 

Anyway it's kinda funny your response to Tenshi then being much the same with your "waa movie theaters" (Movie theaters are also only about a 1/5 of the cost).

And here I show that I don't always practice what I preach. That was a dickish way of me trying to say that I think the issue is inherent to any non-necessities like entertainment, and not having as much money as other people means you're going to miss out on stuff, and that's just the way it is. The price difference is just a matter of degree, and there are people who cannot afford to go out to a movie, or can only do so rarely, the same as there are people who cannot afford to buy games at launch.

[Thursday Next]

Don't know about classist. I can afford games I just don't have time to play them. Especially when the weather is good. Between working 09:00 to 18:00, and socialising in the evening I've had very little time to play The Last of Us. Working in the games industry makes it very difficult to not have things spoiled.

 

Which brings me to my next point. I don't (with a few exceptions) know what games people like, nor do I know what they are playing now, waiting to play, or want to play when the price drops. By the same token, I don't expect anyone else to know the same about me. As such, the onus is on me to let people know where I am in a given story line before engaging in conversation. Generally it's unusual for people to post plot twists in clear view. I don't see many spoilers revealed over, say, Twitter and forums tend to hide spoilers.

 

It sounds like this bloke wants to talk about what everyone else is talking about, but feels left out because he either has to bail out of discussions before he gets spoiled or he has to accept that he will see plot points before he reaches them. I understand that this makes him feel lonely, especially when he has marked himself out as a critic and so is expected to know what is going on in the latest big thing, but I really don't know what he expects the world to do. I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to find people to talk to about TLoU when I eventually finish it, I know that I still love chatting about ASoIaF even though I read the books twice and have talked about it loads. Going through that journey again with a new person is great, it reinvigorates the story for me.