Assassin's Creed

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, I don't see the necessity of manual crouch, but it also doesn't bother me.  Toggling doesn't bother me either, but I agree that if you have to hold it down that's annoying.

[SomTervo]

Anyway, it just feels weird to me that someone would say i hate this game, and yet they constantly play it..

I didn't say i hate the game or the series- you're misquoting me on that. I said I hated some aspects of the design. I said I resent the series even though I can enjoy it.

 

I find the AC games broadly fun; my problem with it is that with minor adjustments it could be a billion times better. Like, it could be MGS quality in terms of core gameplay. But they refuse to change stuff which didn't work in the original and hasn't since (until now), like good looking but meaningless combat, or press x to win freerunning/ chasing. Perhaps because it releases yearly they haven't altered it in a big way ever? Idk.

 

So no matter how much fun I have actually playing it, I'm reminded every two minutes of how poor some of the design is at a very nitpicky level. Like if we had smaller healthbars, if there was a stamina bar so you couldn't just permanently run away, if you could crouch at will (been failed/ spotted so many times because i couldn't duck behind waist-level walls) etc etc.

 

But it looks like with Unity they've changed things up a little. Which pleases me greatly.

[TheMightyEthan]

I think the addition of a stamina bar would ruin the game.  I don't really disagree with anything else you said, but so much of the game is about free-running/climbing that if you limited that it just wouldn't be the same game.

[Eleven]

 

Anyway, it just feels weird to me that someone would say i hate this game, and yet they constantly play it..

I didn't say i hate the game or the series- you're misquoting me on that. I said I hated some aspects of the design. I said I resent the series even though I can enjoy it.

 

I find the AC games broadly fun; my problem with it is that with minor adjustments it could be a billion times better.

 

Ah, I see. Sorry about that. I think I'm just not very nitpicky with my games, or I just don't let it affect my enjoyment of the game that much. There are things I would fix in this game if I could, like in free running, I found that you get stuck on objects a lot due to Edward climbing on stuff you didn't want him climbing on. I say Edward because I think this problem was even more visible in AC4, being on a small ship most of the time with a lot of small things you could climb on. Holding the O/B button could minimize this as Edward would just vault over most of the stuff.

 

I never thought of the free-running, especially on chase scenes, to be press x to win. It's all automatic as have been mentioned before, but the challenge is finding the better path to take. There are chase scenes that are on rails, where you just have to keep up (and if you do it perfectly, it looks really, really good!), but the chase scenes that occur in cities are better (which is why I drop everything and chase thieves in this game). You can stick to the road and just tackle him or get to higher ground and perform an air assassination (some require this to be 100% synced). The free-running button takes away the concern of you having to worry about manually timing your jumps and climbs. All you need to worry about is where to go next.  And remember to avoid small objects because you will climb them even if you don't want to. Hopefully for the new game, this gets fixed and that the new descent button would improve chases, because currently you have to commit to the roofs if that's the path you chose, unless you see a haystack you can jump on.

 

I hate stamina bars in all my games. It makes me feel very limited on what I can do and I feel it would be a disaster in this series.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

The Souls games without stamina bars would be absolute shite.

 

I think a stamina bar in some sort of challenge mode (you know those random indoor arenas they've had since AC2) would be really nice.

[Eleven]

I never played the Souls games 'cause it looks like something I won't enjoy, so I may have been playing games with stamina bars that shouldn't have been there (it's mostly those games that limit your sprint, which just makes it take longer to go where you need to go). So I guess I have to agree with you.

 

Indoor arenas?

[SomTervo]

Yeah obviously a stamina bar which limits the player big style would arguably ruin the freedom of the experience- I dont think a Souls style bar would work. I was thinking more Shadow of the Colossus. Your stamina can last a long time but if adds a ton of tension and challenge- so imagine a very long stamina bar for AC where you could make it probably a couple of hundred yards straight at least, but you'll have to actually plan a hiding place to rest.

 

For me free running gets unbelievably boring quite quickly; if you get in a chase 9/10 times you can escape if you just find a straight road and sprint on it. In AC games I always find myself having to CREATE challenge by letting enemies keep up and by dropping all my weapons mid fight and such, which feels like something a player should never have to do in a game. Perhaps a Hard mode would fix this issue and maintain what you guys like about the experience.

 

The way it is, I find every mechanic in AC has terrible fatigue after even short sessions, once you're past the initial couple of hours. Perhaps Unity's changes will fix all of this.

 

I think the no-minimap design is going to absolutely make the experience. AC's minimap always worked against the cinematic nature of the series n

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

The minimap was always optional. I turned it off most of the time. I do that for a lot of games after a while.

[TCP]

You're so hardcore.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

You're so hardcore.

 

It's an immersion thing.  Not a "make the game more difficult" sort of thing. It's Assassin's Creed we're talking about here. Not a Souls game.

[TheMightyEthan]

That's interesting. What makes the minimap any more immersion-breaking than other parts of the HUD? Not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

That's interesting. What makes the minimap any more immersion-breaking than other parts of the HUD? Not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

 

It's the whole idea that you're playing the minimap rather than playing the game. Everyone views immersion differently. Some people seem to have no middle ground where the only way a game is totally immersive is if there's absolutely nothing "video game" like going on at all. I'm of the belief that a game is still immersive when you realize it's a game and certain things will only make sense because you're playing a game. The minimap is one of those things that breaks it in a lot of games. I prefer the subtle things like having a point glow off in the distance rather than a giant arrow leading you the way. I think that design wise trying to get rid of healthbars and stuff is a good idea but we still rely on too many other things that could likely go away as well. Which is why I love that this has always been customizable in the AC games.

[SomTervo]

You aint heard about this Ethan? There's a growing school of thought that minimaps in open world games really detract from the experience. Which is clearly why the Unity devs have deided to remove it. And why the new Metal Gears dont have one (to great success imo).

 

 

The point is that one is immersed in the minimap, not the gameworld, in a really reductive way. E.g. You barely go a minute in game without glancing at it or examining it. Your eyes are possibly even "glued" to the bottom corner pf the screen most of the time. You are a dot on the map, your objectives are another dot, enemies are dots you must kill. To the point that onscreen action almost becomes meaningless, it's just an a-b experience. Like once you've killed a bad guy you just hunt on the minimap for the next, generally ignore cover and the mechanics and just go shoot him.

 

GTA gets it the worst with its GPS system, where you just follow a track on a map to a location then use the map to find all the dots and kill them. One of Konami's level designers described it as a linear game in an unnecessarily big world, cos the game tells you everywhere to go in this huge amazing gameworld theyve made, which almost becomes redundant. Ive done mapless playthroughs of GTA and RDR and AC:BF and it's so much better most of the time it's ridiculous. You actually pay attention to what's going on onscreen and feel like you're playing a game, not a map.

 

As much as i hate Kote, Kirk Hammet wrote some great pieces on this.

 

Edit: also on immersion, it deffo isn't a case of realism imo. I reckon Immersion is what happens when a game's mechanics are good enough that you can forget about the real world while you play it, like it's so well designed and logically sound and fun that it just sucks you in. Can be anything. Strategy games are really good for it.

 

Also im not saying AC has to become Souls. It never should. I just think the series' potential is not being filled. If it gave just a little bit more resistance to the player's actions, that tiny sense of reward/ challenge would increase the fun of the thing tenfold (imo).

Edited June 19, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[TheMightyEthan]

Huh, maybe I just play differently from most people, but that's not generally my experience.  Typically I'll glance at the map from time to time for reference, but it certainly doesn't dominate my play.  The only major exception being in a game like GTAV or Watch Dogs when I've lost the police but they're still searching for me, then I'll use the map a lot to figure out where I can go to avoid being seen.

[Mr. GOH!]

I totally play the minimap when the game is repetitive, including requiring that I navigate the same spaces repeatedly, including AC games. I play the main view once or twice, but after that I just navigate by minimap.

[SomTervo]

I get the same thing exactly, but i suppose it does depend on the game. Watch Dogs is good cos it distracts you with so much center-screen hacky stuff. Games like Just Cause are usually fine, too, because gameplay is so mental and sanboxey. Far Cry 2 handled it very well, there just wasn't enough to do in the game!

 

Seems like Unity's answer to this issue will improve things regardless of whether we have a problem with minimaps or not.

 

 

Soo it's like:

 

 

Side events (thieves, fights, progressive side missions) get flagged up in the relevant corner of your hud while you pass nearby or they occur randomly. They will go away if you ignore them.

 

To find main missions or side missions or special buildings like shops, you get to a vantage point (high up, rooftops etc) and enter "Low Profile" (crouch). Then icons will appear everywhere showing where things to do are. You can still enter a map screen for this.

 

(This is super weird but just the other week I was thinking about how it would work great in an Open World game if we pressed a button like Lb in Gears of War and got an overlay instead of a map. Then I watched the AC Unity trailer and they beat me to it).

 

And current objectives get a little pinpoint onscreen like in MGS GZ or TPP.

 

Sounds like it'll totally work and be so streamlined. I'd much rather pause to a map occasionally than frequently squint at a minimap. Im hoping this will reduce the amount of throwaway AC collectibles in the game, too

Edited June 19, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[Mister Jack]

 

Too much work, huh Ubi?

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, that was a really stupid thing for Ubi to say.  A much better reason is that each player sees themselves as Arno all the time (if you and I are playing coop I see myself as Arno and you as some other person, and vice-versa), so to get the actions to map right everyone has to be the same size and build as the main character, who is a man.

[madbassman39]

I feel like Ubisoft was just dumb in their first press release when it comes to saying "Well its just too much work!" I knew what they meant after watching the demo and seeing how Watch_Dogs handles the multiplayer in that game. Its clear that Ubisoft wants to blend multiplayer with single player without it feeling disconnected.

 

Either way, Unity looks freaking awesome! I'm surprised we didn't see anything about the PS3/360 AC game.

[Eleven]

It's kind of weird that Abstergo entertainment makes products that portray the Templars in a negative light...

[TheMightyEthan]

Do they?  The only Abstergo product I can think of is Assassin's Creed: Liberation, which portrays the Templar's in an overall good light unless you get the secret thingies that unlock the "real" cutscenes, and the explanation for those is that an Assassin hacked the software to show the full memories rather than the edited versions Abstergo produced.

[Eleven]

Ah I see! I just restarted Liberation and it mentioned that it was the product. I haven't gone far into the story before so I didn't know about that. In AC4 though they are still about to make a product using your raw footage. So I guess editing hasn't happened yet.

 

(Was Liberation HD ever free for PS Plus members? I thought it was... but I don't seem to have it purchased...)

[Alex Heat]

It seems odd that Abstergo would just let their employees roam about despite some of them potentially knowing all about the Templar/Assassin conflict.

[TCP]

Liberation wasn't free but it was on sale a few weeks ago.

[Hot Heart]

Liberation wasn't free but it was on sale a few weeks ago.

 

Alas, freedom is not free.