Assassin's Creed

[TheMightyEthan]

Shocking.

[Faiblesse Des Sens]

Anti-consumer is a pretty hilarious term in the entertainment industry. You're welcome to not buy it/watch it/play it. It's not like it's a utility monopoly.

[TheMightyEthan]

They can still be anti-consumer.

[Eleven]

What are the fast travel icons? What do they look like? I can't seem to find any except Arno's house...

[TCP]

They're the view points once you've synced them they look like >>

Edited November 18, 2014 by The Cowboy Poet

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, same as Black Flag.

[SomTervo]

Don't understand anyone in this thread

 

I can see why people would like this new combat system, but...

 

Fuck this combat system. I hate it. No more fun. Slow. And even slower loading times when you die. Arno must suck as an Assassin lore-wise that's why they had to make it harder, and slower. It's not even smooth like Sleeping Dogs or Arkham. Animations are goddamn slow and you're stuck in it most of the time, you get hit and you die.

 

Fuck this combat system.

 

Really? I hate, hate saying this but... You must suck at it pretty badly, man. Yeah it's not smooth, but it's a realistic system of needing to parry accurately and time your movements against the enemies.

 

Any animation can be interrupted to counter an enemy blow, so the fact that animations are slow doesn't affect your efficiency. Also the pace is exactly the same as previous AC games, except being able to chain insta-kills between enemies. The animations seem a little slow perhaps, but it seems realistic. Standing there staring into the eyes of a guard, waiting for their strike, and knowing that your strike will take a couple of seconds... It feels awesome. I love it. And it's difficult but fair - you need to be on your toes.

 

When I started playing I died all the time- now I barely die at all. I feel like I've genuinely improved, that I've become a more badass assassin, because I get the timings more.

 

 

WHY IS THERE FOUR DIFFERENT FUCKING CURRENCIES?! Jesus. What the hell are "Creed Points"? Also why wouldn't you call them Creed Credits? That makes more sense. Then we have Livres, Sync Points, and Helix Credits. This is stupid game design.

Helix credits can f*** off, but the other three are simples and awesome imo. I think it's the naming which sabotages them a good bit. As I said:

 

In Unity, (for people who don't have the game) there are three resources:

 

- Money (Livres): buy equipment (clothes, weapons) and consumables. Unlocked through chests and missions.

- Sync Points: upgrade Arno's skills (as you become more 'synchronised' with him in the Animus... clever). Unlocked through story missions.

- Creed Points: let you upgrade equipment (improving it's % buffs eg quieter footsteps) and buy cosmetic upgrades. Unlocked through pulling off trick moves. Like a boss. So good.

Edited November 20, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[Eleven]

My thing is, combat was never like that to begin with. AC combat is how AC combat was, for years. It's not this thing. There are a lot of things they removed that made combat fun. For one, counter-kills and chain kills. Did it make combat easy? Yes. But it made it extremely satisfying to chain kill 7 guards. It feels so good to do that, even if it's easy, due to the fact that it was so smooth and the animations are so good. Bonus if you countered two attackers at once in later AC games. Or the gun-sword animations in AC4.

 

Other things like using human shields, hand to hand and disarming enemies/using their weapons, rope darts, gun combos. A lot of combat improvements have been wiped out in this game. Would they be adding them back in to the next AC games? I'm scared, and extremely annoyed, with the reaction to the new combat system that it will purge these things from AC for good. That's a huge part of why I hate it.

 

I read somewhere how Kenway was advertised in the trailers as a dangerous guy who clears decks of enemies on his own. And in the game, due to the combat system, you could actually do that. And it doesn't feel cheap. It feels good. As for Unity, I've upgraded myself now, and I can clear hordes of guards with effective use of medicines and smoke bombs. But it doesn't feel the same. It's not as smooth and satisfying as it had been.

 

And for the "you're meant to avoid combat" thing... I don't know what to say. There was no problem avoiding combat before. You had the option to run, or annihilate them 'cause you're a badass, deadly, trained assassin anyway. It's an option. Even now, just use a damn smoke bomb.

 

Honestly, I'd take this combat system on any other game and most likely be ok with it. But not in AC games.

[TheMightyEthan]

And for the "you're meant to avoid combat" thing... I don't know what to say. There was no problem avoiding combat before. You had the option to run, or annihilate them 'cause you're a badass, deadly, trained assassin anyway. It's an option. Even now, just use a damn smoke bomb.

The problem with combat before was that it was easy. You're supposed to be a stealthy assassin, not a one man army who just runs in and kills everyone on the way to your target. In prior games if you got spotted the easiest thing to do was just fight everyone, but that's not how they wanted the game to be.

 

I would argue that this new combat system is an objectively better choice because it fits with the themes of the games so much better than the old one did, regardless of the fact that it makes combat less fun.

[Eleven]

But aren't games supposed to be fun? In your view, it's better because it fits with the games theme (though you're not only a stealthy assassin, you're a master assassin, as all of the protagonists that came before have proven). In my view, the old one was better because it's a lot more fun. The more enjoyable it is, the better. Those two views are as valid as the other.

 

Hey, even the chase was more satisfying on previous games. The guards in this game give up easy and you lose them in 5 seconds. There are also way less hiding spots although you don't need them as the last known position they did here seems broken. Because nobody chases you. So yeah, you're forced to flee, but then fleeing "is so easy, it's not fun anymore". You might as well, you know, fight them.

 

Besides, in previous games there were a lot of sequences that force or encourage you to be go stealth, either by desynchronizing you if you get detected, or by rewarding you if you stick to it. That was good, I think. Just because I enjoyed the easy fun combat in all the previous games, didn't mean I didn't care for stealth and went guns blazing into every scenario. The stealth parts were just as fun.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yes, games are supposed to be fun, but that doesn't mean that they should use any mechanic that's fun, regardless of how well it fits.  FPS's and kart racing games can be fun, but that doesn't mean it should have FPS or kart racing segments.

[Eleven]

Those are two completely different things. It's not like I'm putting Arno in a carriage so he can drive over guards and pedestrians because it's fun, GTA style. This situation doesn't compare at all. It's not using "any" mechanic. It's using THE Assassin's Creed mechanic that have worked so well (IMO, I know you probably don't agree).

 

They built on top of that mechanic in each and every game. AC1 combat was slow, like this one. AC2 improved on that. ACB,ACR,AC3,AC4 all built on top of it and improved it, even if just by a little. Then they completely took it all away here.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Eleven

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm just saying that AC1 combat was slow, and they gradually expanded on it until they ended up with main characters being complete killing machines and realized it had gotten out of hand.

[Eleven]

That's possible. I feel though, with ACB adding the kick to the groin, they already knew where it was going - as this drastically reduced difficulty. They still added ACR's smoke bombs, AC3's dual counters and human shields (and rope darts), and AC4's gun combo and dual swords. So I don't see it as them realizing it getting out of hand. The previous designers knew exactly what the combat was.

 

It's more like a "we don't want you to play that way anymore" thing. Fine. But then, the alternative way to play is arguably even worse than before. As someone who enjoyed all the AC games tremendously, this is pretty frustrating. It's not really about challenging combat. It's about completely changing the established expected mechanics (which is kind of one of it's trademarks), and not necessarily for the better.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Eleven

[SomTervo]

Yeah, the problem for you 11 seems to be that AC combat has always been 'this way', and now it's not.

 

Imo, 'this way' is a dull, repetitive, over-easy mess which fundamentally undermines a lot of the other gameplay mechanics. After a couple of hours of AC1, it has never been fun for me. There was never any incentive to play better because it was so easy. But besides that deeper issue, combat in the series, since AC1, has been boring as fuck. It's not fun. For me, at least. And you cite this as the main reason for it being this way.

 

I reach a stage very early in every AC game (until Unity) where I get so agonizingly bored by the by-the-numbers, slow, no-risk combat that I literally begin running away from every combat encounter. I just can't go through the terrible routine again. In AC1 and 2 this was passable because the simulation was so novel, but once the series went annual and they added the 1-hit-instakill-combo system (who the fuck thought that was a good idea), I just couldn't hack it any more. It's worse than watching a movie because after a couple of fights you've seen every combat animation. It's like a martial arts or action movie made up of the same fight scene over and over.

 

Unity's system still has the badassery of being ableto deflect every strike (if you're good enough) and has improved the cinematic, cool as shit nature of combat - but most importantly, it props up every other mechanic in the game by providing a challenge.

 

In vidyagames, every gameplay mechanic should make you use and engage with every other gameplay mechanic. Until Unity, more than half of AC's staple mechanics have been really tedious and effectively standalone. The only thing making you play better were arbitrary mission objectives or optional 'full synchronisation' parameters. The mainly 'fun' aspect, and what keeps me playing personally, is the amazing simulation, historical fiction, and adventurey progression. The gameplay itself barely kept me attached.

 

But in Unity:

- combat being harder forces you to use tools and stealth and freerunning more

- Creed Points force you to play better (incl fight better) to improve gear and look cooler

- new and more intelligent enemy positions, encounters and stealth options make you genuinely weight up whether you should fight, and make fights feel more dynamic (incl randoms in the street joining in, etc.)

 

For me this improves the fun factor tenfold by:

- making me feel thrilled and excited by near-deaths and cunning escapes which I control, not the game

- I feel more immersed. Eg in The Last of Us and Metal Gear Solid one can feel far more immersed because of tension, if you know you'll be in trouble when enemies spot you, etc. This adds to thrill and fun factor (after encounters I'll sit back in my chair, exhale and go 'shit that was awesome')

- actually having to pay attention in gameplay means I don't get bored. Unlike in 80% of combat encounters in other AC games. Your brain is in high gear focusing all attention on the events onscreen. In ACs of yore it was too easy to switch off (switching off can often be great, eg rampaging in GTA or playing online shooters, but there's a line between 'switching off' and 'being bored')

 

The fun is maintained by never having arbitrary 'lose if you're seen' objectives and making things harder but never impossible, if you aren't prepared for a situation. Eg I love that you can get in a small fight in a corner of a huge assassination mission, and the target won't magically know about it and run away.

 

PS a series maintaining core style and mechanics but changing them is surely a good thing? Even if they try things which don't work (or which you don't enjoy), it still shows that the developers are trying to mix things up, which is the only way for innovation or improvements to happen.

 

Your whole argument seems to be predicated on 'I don't like change', which is always the worst argument in any discussion!

Edited November 21, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[TheMightyEthan]

I didn't run away from combat, but it did frequently turn into a chore. "Alright, I'll just sit here countering for the next 5 minutes while I kill all the 45 dudes in the area until I can actually do something fun."  Running away never seemed like a viable option either, because the enemies are so persistent that stopping and fighting them was just easier, and the actual act of running away wasn't particularly fun.

[SomTervo]

Heh, yeah, enemies could free run after you ridiculously effectively until Unity. In Unity, in a far more realistic fashion, enemies are now simply better shots and bullets do a ton more damage.

 

I love that rooftop guards fire a warning shot now before trying to fill you with lead.

[Eleven]

Well, yeah for sure I don't like change when it's a change for the worse! The "I don't like change argument" can be brought up every time someone complains about any change. And it's not like I didn't state why I didn't like it anyway...

 

See, we're on extreme opposite sides here. You think the previous combat was dull, repetitive, easy. That it's boring, that it's not fun. I, on the other hand, while I find it easy, I thought the flashy style and variety of ways to kill (things I call "fun") more than makes up for that lack of difficulty. I never found it boring because of that. It seems like people always take it as a truth that easy = boring. That is not always true. AC IMO actually makes it feel good, even if it's easy. See, I think I may have posted it on here somewhere, or have thought about it, but I remember thinking/saying that they could have released a combat simulator for Assassin's Creed (I'm thinking something with endless mode like what Batman had), and I would buy it and play it for hours.

 

Back to the combat, I could say the combat in this system is repetitive too! All you really do is wait for the enemy to attack, parry, slash slash slash, or hold slash, taking care to look out for incoming attacks so you can counter (if you can manage that with this horrible zoomed in camera angle). Isn't that the same with the previous one, minus the difficulty? It's even worse because the other game actually gives you access to more weapons, hence more ways to actually kill. Switch to hand to hand, or grab your opponents sword. Switch weapons, combo with a gun, combo with the rope dart, pick up a musket and snipe, etc... The new system has, what, 1 gun that doesn't really combo, a smoke/stun bomb (which is possible with the old games too, albeit very OP), Arno can't pick up any weapon even temporarily, what else... That's it I think. Distraction items are in the old games too.

 

But let's drop that boring/fun argument. Because I do think both impressions are valid (even if I don't agree with you). I'll never convince you otherwise, or you me.

 

You listed some things about the new combat and it's effects but I have concerns too:

 - You use tools a lot more, I agree, due to the necessity of it. Free running has improved massively. Enemies, however, are lazier. So that change really feels off to me. Harder combat makes you flee, but fleeing is an unfun mechanic due to (IMO) fleeing never really feels good (who wants to ever back down? no one!), and enemies give up easily (you say it's realistic, I say they're gimped). Is it really worth sacrificing combat for such things? They could have at least improved that.

 - Creed points is something new, and they COULD have added this to the previous game mechanics. (Ironically, a lot of creed points comes from combat too. Should you really be going around and massacre guards, or give up the creed points? This is just basically new currency to buy upgrades instead of spending gold. Which is a welcome change. Otherwise a lot of time will be spent waiting for that chest to fill up...

 - I never really notice better enemy positions here. Especially relating to combat. It's the same room-to-room thing, get past thugs in this room, get past thugs in the next room, assassinate. In a lot of scenarios, when you woke up the room, you're still safe in the next room. The thing that improved here is the stealth mechanic. Due to crouching, they have more freedom to place enemies (and placements look more natural instead of people constantly looking out of windows), because it means you could duck behind tables, crates, etc, wherein the previous game you had to hide in strategically placed spots (which still do exist today), or hide in the bushes. Add in locked doors and lock-picking too. This is stealth improvement. Which is also welcome, IMO.

 

Near death thrills, immersion, getting bored... We're back to how the combat of both games makes us feel. You can say those things, and I understand, however I can also say that the combat style of the old games actually DO make me feel thrilled, enough to keep getting into combat situations (poor guards) even at the latest stages in the game. Have you seen that compilation of Connor's brutal dual counter animations? "Shit, that was awesome!". I'm immersed and the game has no problem keeping my attention, losing hours at a time without me even knowing it. And I just like to say, that I have never had a problem with not feeling tense enough in stealth missions due to the easy combat. Or committing to stealth missions. Stealth missions are fun in their own right, here or in the old games. Stealth missions have never been lacking in AC games. Wait... actually... where are the assassination missions in this game? There doesn't seem to be any other than the main story ones... Like "forts" and their captains. The assassin missions I have played were point A point B stuff. Including a duel with a cross dressing master swordsman. The assassination missions have always been good at making you go stealthy. I guess I've just been unlucky, or these are now co-op stuff I haven't done yet.

 

Other things, i guess:

 - They decided to lock out skills and use skill points instead of gradually unlocking them through the story. But sync points are unlocked through the story anyway so whatever. Sync points (so far, I'm on sequence 11) are limited and even if I wanted to switch to heavy weapons, I have to sacrifice something (like double air assassination, or maybe lock-picking 3) to be good at that skill. Even if they're unlimited, why keep me from getting them till the end of the game? This is not only a problem in this game however. A lot of games keep cool stuff till the end, where you really have only a few more opportunities to use them.

 - Double assassination is locked. Ok. I guess even Ezio never really had this from the start. But why is double air assassination a separate thing? I have never run into a scenario where double air assassination made a difference. So now it just makes me decide between that, lock picking, or combat improvements. I don't think that was a good idea. What's the harm with combining it into 1 skill? This is just locking out stuff for the hell of it. It's not even a new skill.

 - That's not all. I have to waste skill points on Money pouches so I can throw coins? There really is no actually new skill here. The locked out skills are all standard in previous games. Artificially making the game "harder".

 - They dropped a lot of combat options. For a challenging experience! Why not introduce something like certain guards are immune to certain items (agile ones can avoid a rope dart. special ones don't get smoked or stunned, just throwing some ideas). Then we have all the options we had before, but combat would indeed be more challenging. Counter kills can have a percentage where the enemy lives (maybe based on your health and their health, the enemy type, etc), but keep the combat's smooth flow going. I think those are better than limiting the things you could actually do, and changing combat to parry/strikes mechanic.

 

It's like they said "Hmm... let's drop that mechanic... ok let's lock this out because fuck it.. there! We're done!". I guess they forgot to actually improve on those other things they want us to do, leaving me feeling that all of these is a huge step back. Too much stuff has been removed, not enough effort has been made to replace it. What could have they replaced them with? I don't know yet, but I'm sure giving us this new mechanic isn't the answer.

 

Some things I believe, shouldn't be messed with, which is really what I meant with my "I don't like change"-sounding statement. And I believe combat was one of those things in this game. It was unique to Assassin's Creed, and I feel, as I mentioned, one of the game's trademarks. Too bad you didn't like it... otherwise you'd be complaining too. Now, it's too bad I loved it, and now you see me complaining. It's especially sad and frustrating because we've had that combat system for some time now. So in a way, this really ruins something that I look forward to every year.

[Hot Heart]

Without having played Unity, I get the impression that the key systems need a much bigger overhaul in order to offer a 'complete assassin experience'.

 

I've always found the combat to be pretty unexciting and somewhat clunky, which almost felt like a punishment for being spotted anyway. "Great, now I gotta hack my way through ten guys."

The other incentive, which I much over instafail, would be a 100% sync thing about not being spotted.

 

The trouble is just that the stealth is so terrible. There was nothing to keep it very engaging, and traversal just never helped. It also looked and felt stupid. "Just standing upright behind this chimney stack until the guard turns back round. Ooh, beep, his icon went yellow but if I run a bit farther past him..." Then you get caught on a slight bump or have to run miles away then reapproach. There aren't any cohesive and reliable mechanics that make me want to get better at that, so most missions devolve into mindless slaughter or desynchronisation frustration.

 

I loved the way the new Tomb Raider handled the cover system, the traversal and being able to get the jump on enemies to give yourself an advantage. Sure, with enough upgrades, you were nigh on invincible anyway, but that could be tweaked, I feel.

[TCP]

End of game spoilers:

 

I think Ubisoft kind of fucked up killing Elise. She's a very solid character and probably could have been a lead character in spin-off/sequel. People seem to think she's a good example of a female character.

 

Edited November 23, 2014 by The Cowboy Poet

[Eleven]

Edit: I'll put some text here because apparently Tapatalk shows spoilers in the preview. This way you won't get spoiled! So if you haven't finished the game yet, I just made this post "Tapatalk safe"!

 

 

I agree. They just had to have their "shocking!" ending. It's kind of annoying when this is actually the default, expected ending now. I figured she'd die, I was just hoping she wouldn't.

What is the Unity in the title supposed to be for, anyway? I had thought it would have something to do with Elise and Arno at the end of the game, since they could now both hold a great deal of influence over their own factions. But we still have the modern day war anyway so I guess that throws that idea out the window...

 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Eleven

[Eleven]

I wish I could buy a map with the collectibles like in AC.. I wanna say AC2. One of the AC2 games. Hell I'd even pay for an add-on to show them all up on my map. I'm going for full sync on the story missions so I might as well go for the platinum. Traversing rooftops is strangely satisfying, but it gets old after a while.

 

Collecting chests is not fun. The Nostradamus Enigmas are harder (if you don't look them up), but at least it's not just running around collecting chests.

 

On a related note: I think requiring only 90% of the chests/meaningless collectibles before you get a trophy would be better. It makes one feel that it's OK to miss some, and might actually make someone go for that achievement. It's a bit different than collecting "keys" to unlock an armor. I guess that would make sense (and there aren't 100 keys anyway). I don't know. They could just add 10 extra chests to the standard 100, and that would technically be the same as only offering 100, but I think it would make the collector feel better. At least that's how I would feel.

 

Also, that Ezio outfit unlock is harsh. Level 13 in Initiates? I just got Level 13, and I only got there since I linked all my other AC games to u-play. If you miss 1 game, say goodbye to that unlockable.

 

Edward Kenway unlocks at Level 1. No love.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Eleven

[SomTervo]

I've been waiting to have time to give you a proper response to your above post, Eleven, but I won't have time to do it justice!

 

Obviously, what you like you like, and what I like I like. There's no breaking that ground. That's totally cool that you prefer the old AC combat and world mechanics. Totally cool. But obviously if you dislike the changes in Unity and wish they hadn't made the changes, it begs the age-old argument: why don't you just go and play the older ones? You've even got Rogue which uses all the old systems.

 

Still, your opinion is totally valid and I won't wax about it any further!

 

---

 

All this said, I played Unity last night between about 20:00 and 23:30.

 

It was fucking amazing. A friend and I in co-op free roam in Paris. Running around being vigilantes, taking out goons. Occasionally doing a story mission or a Heist, planning attacks, sneaking, fighting, countless incredible emergent moments where we both dived on unsuspecting guys from above, hunting down Sync points in co-op missions, redoing Heists until we mastered them...

 

Man, under all the jank and stupid multi-service integration, lies a near-masterpiece of a game

 

The only frequent barrier we were coming up against was stupid level 3 lockpicking skill being locked until Sequence 10. Pretty stupid, though I guess they want us to play the story mode more. A lot of level 4-5 Heists are basically unwinnable until you have this skill.

 

Edit: Far Cry 4 sublime 2 player coop and ACU great 2-4 player co-op... Could this be a golden age of online co-op in AAA budget games? The hyper-detailed open world sandbox factor really boosts co-op above what was previously achievable in linear games like Halo and Gears (which were still great, I would have happily called that the golden age of co-op until this came along.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[TCP]

Assassin's Creed Victory. Set in Victorian (get it!?) London. Expect it 10 months from now.  I looked it up, apparently the "Victorian" era was from the years 1837 - 1901, so this will be the latest Assassins Creed game.

Edited December 2, 2014 by The Cowboy Poet

[deanb]

I like how you put "Victorian" in quotes like that and class it as "apparently" as if you're talking about chemtrails or something