Uncharted 4: A Thief's Thiefing Thief

[TheMightyEthan]

lolwut?

 

I can't even think of any TPS's with coop other than Gears.  Coop has basically died out.

[TCP]

Sooooooo... Now that we have two Drakes... Coop? That would be nice. A friendly bit of optional coop? Yes? No? I would like Coop. Especially with a split screen/online option.

 

 

Didn't UC3 have optional co-op missions, separate from the main campaign?

[toxicitizen]

What are you guys going on about? The Uncharted series has had coop since U2...

 

Unless you mean in the actual main campaign? In which case, fuck that. Uncharted is all about the narrative, I don't want any of that immersion-breaking drop-in drop-out bullshit. Keep that shit in a separate mode. Especially since it's basically a given that Drake won't always have someone with him.

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, fuck letting people play the campaign together if they want!

[toxicitizen]

Yes? Play together in a separate, dedicated co-op mode all you want but the main campaign shouldn't be co-op. It never was and it's not something you can just add without completely changing the game's normal structure.

 

There's always long stretches of gameplay where Drake is completely on his own. If the campaign was fully co-op, that would no longer be an option. Like I said, Uncharted's campaigns have always been about the narrative more than anything else. Letting the inclusion of co-op dictate what can and can't happen in the story is a big no-no.

 

I mean, I guess they could let people control the other characters whenever Drake has people with him. But I don't really see the point in doing that. I mean, imagine inviting someone over to play the game only for the next 2 hours to be a long stretch of Drake being alone. A dedicated co-op mode just makes more sense for this series.

 

I'm not sure how anyone that has actually played the games could possibly not see that. If you want a fully co-op campaign, just go play Resident Evil instead. That series has already been ruined by co-op. No need for Uncharted to suffer the same fate.

[TCP]

I guess if they wanted to add in co-op for the sections with Sully, Elena, and Baker-Drake that'd be fine, but it would be weird to have them come in and out in the main campaign, since clearly Drake will still have portions where it's just him as we saw in the gameplay demo this weekend.

[Thursday Next]

I don't see how optional drop in/out coop would affect anyone who wants it. I don't care if it is immersion breaking, UC storylines are popcorn fare at best. The option to have someone else play along beats out the negative effect of playing alongside Drake's older brother and then have him appear out of context.

 

Where this idea does break down is that ND usually have plenty of platform sections that are scripted to crumble, so what you scramble up one minute your coop partner will be screwed on.

 

All I'm saying is, having two Drakes of similar age is a clear opportunity for cooping without immersion breaking "As if Sully could make that jump." moments.

[TheMightyEthan]

There's always long stretches of gameplay where Drake is completely on his own. If the campaign was fully co-op, that would no longer be an option. Like I said, Uncharted's campaigns have always been about the narrative more than anything else. Letting the inclusion of co-op dictate what can and can't happen in the story is a big no-no.

You're WAY overthinking it. Just do it like Halo: design the game for singleplayer, and if you play coop there's two Master Chiefs.  There's no reason it has to affect the singleplayer experience in any way (except I'll admit I don't have a good answer for the crumbly bits TN mentions).

[toxicitizen]

What you think about the quality of the story is completely irrelevant to my point, though. The campaign is all about having an action adventure story with a highly cinematic presentation. Anything that detracts from that is simply a terrible idea design-wise. And what you said about crumbling platforms is another good example of why it's a terrible idea. It limits what can be done in the main campaign, you lose something the series is known for and it detracts from the cinematic presentation.

 

I find kind of funny how you're fine with a character appearing out of context for no reason (perhaps out of thin air, even?) and that's somehow less immersion-breaking than Sully making a big jump. Especially considering that, if memory serves right, crumbling platforms and Sully not feeling too good about making a jump have often been used as story justification for Drake to be separated from him and have a solo section.

 

You can circumvent all of that with basically zero compromise by having co-op be its own separate thing.

 

 

edit: my post was initially only replying to TN. I only saw this next part after I'd already posted.

 

You're WAY overthinking it. Just do it like Halo: design the game for singleplayer, and if you play coop there's two Master Chiefs.  There's no reason it has to affect the singleplayer experience in any way (except I'll admit I don't have a good answer for the crumbly bits TN mentions).

I really don't think I am. That kinda stuff is important to consider when designing a game, you can't just start adding unnecessary features without considering their impact on the game's cohesion.

 

Maybe thoughtless co-op is fine for Halo, I don't know, I haven't played it. I couldn't tell you what the point of Halo is if I tried. Seems like a Call of Duty-like kind of FPS campaign, though, so I can see how it might work. Are there other Spartans besides Master Chief?

 

But having that kind of forced, half-baked inclusion in Uncharted would definitely detract from what the experience of the game is meant to be, I think. It would be kind of stupid to go to such great lengths to have the best cinematic presentation possible only to absolutely shatter the illusion the second someone else picks up the second controller. Not every single game is a good fit for co-op, you know.

Edited December 8, 2014 by FLD

[TheMightyEthan]

You're conflating TN and my perspectives:  TN said that Drake's brother would provide an opportunity for coop without breaking immersion, whereas I don't give half a shit if coop breaks immersion.  If I want to be immersed I'll play by myself.  In my experience coop breaks immersion regardless of how it's handled though because other people don't know how to shut the fuck up during a game like they do during a movie.

 

The reason I want campaign coop rather than a separate mode is that when it's a separate mode it never has anything close to the care and attention of the main campaign put into it, so it's simply not as good.

[TCP]

I'm with my French Canadian buddy here. Uncharted games are all about the story and presentation, you can't just drop a second Drake in there. 

However, the maps in UC4 look REALLY big with multiple routes, so the crumbling platforms would still be able to exist, the other player would just have to find another way. Course, that would force Naughty Dog to have every level be giant open areas with multiple paths, which is also not ideal.

[Saturnine Tenshi]

You could add checkpoints, an alternate route up, or the ability to throw a rope to your pal.

[toxicitizen]

You're conflating TN and my perspectives:  TN said that Drake's brother would provide an opportunity for coop without breaking immersion, whereas I don't give half a shit if coop breaks immersion.  If I want to be immersed I'll play by myself.  In my experience coop breaks immersion regardless of how it's handled though because other people don't know how to shut the fuck up during a game like they do during a movie.

 

The reason I want campaign coop rather than a separate mode is that when it's a separate mode it never has anything close to the care and attention of the main campaign put into it, so it's simply not as good.

I wasn't initially replying to you. I edited my post to reflect that. As for a separate mode not being given as much care. Well, that was certainly true in Uncharted 2. Haven't really tried it in U3 but I suspect it was similar. Hmm, it's as if the devs agree that co-op really isn't the point of these games.

 

Besides, you say co-op breaks immersion regardless. My entire point is that breaking immersion goes directly against the idea of what the Uncharted campaigns are.

Edited December 8, 2014 by FLD

[TCP]

The UC3 co-op mode was decent, it had it's own story featuring alternate scenario's from the other UC games.

[TheMightyEthan]

What they are FOR YOU. But how does giving me a campaign coop option detract from your immersion if they still design the campaign around singleplayer, a la Halo?

[TCP]

BECAUSE YOU WON'T UPDATE THE ASSASSIN'S CREED POLL SO FUCK YOU NO CO-OP FOR YOU!!!!

[toxicitizen]

What they are FOR YOU. But how does giving me a campaign coop option detract from your immersion if they still design the campaign around singleplayer, a la Halo?

What? How is that what they are for me specifically? Making a cinematic action adventure romp with the main focus being on presentation is clearly the entire idea behind these games. Do you seriously not get that?

 

You can't just add a coop option to the main campaign and still design around single-player. Holy shit, are you even thinking this through? It clearly affects almost everything. Story, level design, core mechanics (beyond moving and shooting), obstacles, etc. Everything needs to be designed to accommodate more than one player at any given time. Halo is obviously made like this, even if you don't realize it.

 

Uncharted isn't and it's not exactly a trivial change to make.

[TheMightyEthan]

Why does it have to affect even one of those things?

[toxicitizen]

...Are you being intentionally dense, dude?

 

The last few posts are full of examples of how the Uncharted series has been historically designed in ways that accommodate only a single player. Are you seriously asking why allowing the presence of a second player at any given time will affect those things?

 

I can already picture it. Drake lands on a platform only for it to become unstable. So he jumps off, grabs onto a wall and starts climbing, destroying a little bit of it in the process. Once at the top, having completely destroyed the only way up, he looks back down at some mysterious doppelganger that appeared out of thin air an hour ago and has been following him ever since: "Oh well, sucks to be you, buddy!"

 

I guess you're right, the game's level design wouldn't really be affected!

Edited December 8, 2014 by FLD

[TheMightyEthan]

Full of examples?  The crumbly bits are seriously the only example that anyone has mentioned.  They could just, you know, not worry about it?  If one person dies they just respawn the next time the surviving player gets to solid ground.  Problem solved, no level design change necessary.  It would be less than ideal, but it's just an optional mode so you can play it with a friend anyway so who cares?

 

*Edit* - I just saw your edit on the last page about not having played Halo.  Literally the only thing it changes to support coop play is there are more enemies when playing coop, but the game is entirely designed around singleplayer.  In Halos 1, 2, and 4, whenever you're playing coop there are just two Master Chiefs.  No justification for it.  In cutscenes there is once again only 1 Master Chief.  I don't see this as a problem, regardless of whether the game is designed around a cinematic experience or not.

Edited December 8, 2014 by TheMightyEthan

[toxicitizen]

I don't mean dynamically changing it when a second player joins. I mean it has to be designed from the ground up so that it can potentially support more than one player. Uncharted is full of cinematic set pieces that simply wouldn't work with a second player present, it's not just the crumbly bits. And those set pieces are a core aspect of what the games are trying to achieve.

 

More thought has been put into Halo's coop option than you seem to realize, that's just how game design works. I'm willing to bet Halo was never intended to put as much emphasis as Uncharted on having a cinematic presentation. It was most certainly designed to accommodate coop from the very start of the series so, yeah, they most certainly actively avoid designing levels/situations where having more than one player would be problematic.

 

To add it into Uncharted at this point, you'd have to drastically compromise on the current structure and format of the campaign. You'd inevitably lose some of the things the series is now known for.

[TheMightyEthan]

You're right that Halo has taken it into account, I know it's not accurate to say that literally no consideration was made for coop, but just playing it you can tell it was designed primarily around singleplayer.  You can tell that coop on the original game was added as an afterthought very late in development, but personally I'd rather be able to play the main campaign in a afterthought coop then be limited to a special afterthought mode.

 

Anyway, I still think my core point stands, that they could just not worry about if specific segments don't work well coop.

Edited December 8, 2014 by TheMightyEthan

[toxicitizen]

I think I've gone into reasonable detail in explaining why I believe your core point does not, in fact, stand. But if your only response to that is "whatever, they can still totally do it" with zero elaboration then I guess I'm done here... 

 

Although, you'd rather have an half-baked coop option in the main campaign, in a game that's structured in a way where a second player could be left with nothing to do for extended stretches of gameplay at any given time, than a completely separate, dedicated coop mode? Hmm... okay? 

[TheMightyEthan]

Yeah, that was my "I don't find any of your arguments convincing, but we're obviously just talking in circles, so peace out" post.

[TCP]

Hug it out, guys, hug it out.