Uncharted 4: A Thief's Thiefing Thief

[SomTervo]

Jack: that's how Uncharted's been doing it since 2. (Oh except it's not a side story, but it does link in. Also Conviction did that great!)

 

I know you don't want this. I'm not telling you to want it. All I'm saying is that I want at least a half assed coop so that I can coop when I want to.

I think a big point is being missed here.

 

You guys might want campaign-based coop ... but I'm pretty sure Naughty Dog don't. Re the previous coop modes in UC2 and UC3, they always said they would keep SP a separate entity.

 

They are committed as shit to the 'cinematic singleplayer vision' of Uncharted. Which is founded very vitally on immersion at many points. Similar to Last of Us- it would have been WAY easy to put coop in TLoU, espesh the campaign, but they decided against it entirely. In UC this would be even more pronounced, because ND clearly value those long stretches where we play Drake - injured or down and out or plodding along talking to himself dealing with adverse circumstances - ABOVE ALL ELSE. I'm not saying this is valid; but having a random other Drake there nattering in your ear WOULD ruin the atmosphere a lot, and we wouldnt feel any intimacy with Drake. - which is 100% what ND wanna sustain.

 

Thursday: the storylines are popcorn fare, yes- but the writing is excellent. Dialogue/character-wise. They value the player's backseat-style journey, following along behind Drake on his often lonely adventures. I think this is a big reason Halo/Gears arent relevant here. Halo and Gears are like a TV soap. The characters are there just as vehicles taking us to the next drama. But Uncharted is written so that the characters stand alone in the experience and can be enjoyed like you would a well-written blockbuster- a Guardians of the Galaxy or Indie Jones.

 

I dont think this can be compared to Halo or Knack or Gears in gameplay either. There are almost no bits in Halo or Gears in my memory where we have really mobile, quickfire cinematic sequences which are designed wholly around one person.

 

I mean, i guess they could design those bits around two people. But i get a gut feeling about how none of this jives with the way Uncharted has always been. Unlike Halo/Gears where it was designed in there at the front end.

 

The dedicated coop missions in UC (... Why don't you just play these anyway?) have always been set in their own little silly universes, with pointed avoidance of immersion/good narrative pacing, and are still great fun.

Edited December 9, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[toxicitizen]

Kenshi gets it.

[SomTervo]

Dam strate bro

 

FYI Ive also edited that post like mad, christ i hate typing on a phone

[TheMightyEthan]

I'm not sure kenshi read anything Thursday or I wrote, since he's still taking about designing it for two people...

[SomTervo]

That was how it started, i skipped ahead... TN's last post still seems pretty relevant to mine?

 

Edit: wait, is your point that it should be designed entirely for one person but that a second can drop in? That's pretty flawed thinking. Halo/Gears etc are still designed with more than one player in mind, even if they're playable SP. Coop is a ground-up campaign feature. The devs are thinking, 'right, in this bit, one player will do xyz, and with two players they can also do abc'. But with Uncharted their only thought process is 'the one player can do xyz'. With two players it would be like 'they can... Still only do xyz, and the effect of x or z may be compromised because player 2 is off in a corner doing silly stuff, or suddenly ruins the balance of level design in a combat arena which is designed to be thrilling for one adventurer'

 

Making an SP Uncharted, in keeping with the prev games in design, then dropping in a random player would mess it up in various ways, including what i said above. Halo/Gears have been designed, front to back, start to finish, top to bottom as things which can be done with 1+ players. Not so with UC

 

PS other series which were arguably damaged by shoehorn campaign coop- Resi, Dead Space... Sonic?

Edited December 10, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[toxicitizen]

I'm not sure kenshi read anything Thursday or I wrote, since he's still taking about designing it for two people...

Which is the only way an Uncharted main campaign would ever be fully coop. Because your hypothetical dreamland scenario where they somehow make it fully coop while still designing around single-player makes no sense. I thought we already agreed on that?

 

I guess the main mistake that was made in this thread was to use realistic points to argue against the nonsensical implementation you guys have been suggesting.

[SomTervo]

I think this is what I'm struggling to get my head around

[toxicitizen]

That was how it started, i skipped ahead... TN's last post still seems pretty relevant to mine?

 

Edit: wait, is your point that it should be designed entirely for one person but that a second can drop in? That's pretty idiotic. Halo/Gears etc are still designed with more than one player in mind, even if they're playable SP. Coop is a ground-up campaign feature. The devs are thinking, 'right, in this bit, one player will do xyz, and with two players they can also do abc'. But with Uncharted their only thought process is 'the one player can do xyz'. With two players it would be like 'they can... Still only do xyz, and the effect of x or z may be compromised because player 2 is off in a corner doing silly stuff'

 

Making an SP Uncharted, in keeping with the prev games in design, then dropping in a random player would mess it up in various ways, including what i said above

Once again, this guy gets it. *high five*

 

For some reason, Ethan thinks a completely broken coop implementation is totally realistic. I've been trying to explain how coop and Uncharted's current structure are kind of, you know, mutually exclusive...

[SomTervo]

- Except in UC2 and 3's small custom-made campaigns where level design and scenarios were skewed to benefit coop play with 3 people

 

PS the word 'idiotic' above was too harsh- rushed phone typing, no offence meant!

Edited December 10, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[TheMightyEthan]

For some reason, Ethan thinks a completely broken coop implementation is totally realistic.

Oh fuck you. I agreed it wasn't going likely to happen, I've just explained why I want it. Now you're just being an asshole.

[Eleven]

Look at it this way, because I don't think you guys still see what Ethan's really talking about. You guys keep talking about designing with co-op in mind, and if self-respecting developers would do this. Totally not the point.

 

Uncharted game, single player campaign. Done.

 

Half-baked co-op:

1. Just add Player 2. No need to acknowledge him anywhere.

2. Crumbly parts - add warp button (immersion breaking, but who cares).

3. Cinematic parts - just remove him completely (train-hopping parts, or "the world is ending" scenarios where everything in the map is just falling apart).

4. Player specific parts - just put him somewhere or remove him, and yes, it might "break" the game. (this includes Drake being tied up upside down. with 2nd drake just standing there shooting, this part is broken, but who cares).

5. Parts where a 2nd character is actually there - make him player 2. This means he could be Elena, just sitting there until you open gates. Or him opening gates for you. Elena sometimes does open gates for you.

6. If player 2 dies, just respawn him. Again, game-breaking (because god-mode) but who cares. Or just respawn him after all enemies in the area are dead.

 

Those are probably not all the scenarios. But you see how I'm handling it? Handle other issues the same way.

 

This way, the game is completely single player focused. A bit (relatively) of time might be needed to just put the 2nd player there, maybe make enemies tougher (maybe, or not), or to remove/respawn the 2nd player depending on the situation (put 2nd player in spectator mode).

 

This is completely half-baked. No one is expecting, and it should be clarified to everyone, that they will present the best co-op experience they possibly could, no need to even market it. This is literally tacked-on co-op for those who want it.

 

The justification is being able to actually enjoy the campaign and story with a friend, is, on some people's minds, more favorable than keeping the "integrity" of the single player game experience. There is literally nothing lost to players who might want to enjoy a really good, cinematic single player game, just don't let others join in.

[TheMightyEthan]

The justification is being able to actually enjoy the campaign and story with a friend, is, on some people's minds, more favorable than keeping the "integrity" of the single player game experience. There is literally nothing lost to players who might want to enjoy a really good, cinematic single player game, just don't let others join in.

THIS! So much this!

[toxicitizen]

Well this is kind of anticlimactic... Can't you at least call me an asshole or something?

Oh fuck you. I agreed it wasn't going likely to happen, I've just explained why I want it. Now you're just being an asshole.

 

 

 

 

-snip-

Oh fucking please. I get what he's talking about. What I've been saying this entire time boils down to: there is a time and place for half-baked coop and Uncharted isn't it. Period.

 

Yes, there are ways it could be made to "work" like you described. But those barely qualify as workarounds, let alone actual solutions. Let me phrase my stance in another way: it's a fucking terrible idea.

[TCP]

Like this post if you stopped paying attention a few pages ago!

[SomTervo]

 

The justification is being able to actually enjoy the campaign and story with a friend, is, on some people's minds, more favorable than keeping the "integrity" of the single player game experience. There is literally nothing lost to players who might want to enjoy a really good, cinematic single player game, just don't let others join in.

THIS! So much this!

 

 

I can't disagree with this at all - but it's definitely not something Naughty Dog are interested in, based on what they've said in the past. And Ethan's acknowledged that, so it's all cool. For ND, the "integrity" of the singleplayer experience is what it's all about.

 

I totally appreciate that co-op is of more interest for many players (myself included in many cases). They already have the other co-op campaign mode which basically does everything Eleven has said, and doesn't compromise the singleplayer, so I guess everyone's a winner anyway. The only thing missing from that, I suppose, is the drop-in-drop-out nature of full-campaign co-op, which would be really pleasant and convenient, but basically unnecesary.

 

Let's make up, hugs and kisses to all

 

----

 

Back-on-topic: I'm not sure at all how I feel about Drake suddenly getting a brother. This is sudden, right?

 

In fact, I really really dislike idea. Borderline hate it. I think it compromises the solid, beautifully simple and consistent Uncharted cast. Feels unabashedly shoehorned in, which is so anti-Naughty Dog... but if at any point in any of the Uncharted games, Sam Drake has been mentioned... Then I take it back.

 

Anybody recall him being mentioned in the past? I certainly don't.

Edited December 10, 2014 by kenshi_ryden

[staySICK]

:loudly:

SO UH, THIS GAME LOOKS GREAT AND I EAGERLY ANTICIPATE IT'S RELEASE

[Eleven]

I'm gonna call it now.

 

He's the main villain of UC4! Or at least will have a bad guy moment.

[Thursday Next]

What Ethan said. I want half assed coop, I know I won't get it. I know it would break at points and be ugly and that's not what ND do. I'm ok with that.

 

If they continue with a side of coop I hope it's more fleshed out. Maybe they could do a back story thing where Nate and Sam do some adventuring together that can be coop focussed? I'm just seeing that two Drakes as an opportunity for gameplay. If it's a pure narrative tool, so be it.

 

With employer bias noted, the coop in Dead Space 3 was brilliant. It made the game huge amounts of fun. Especially when

 

 

one of you would freak out and start seeing/hearing things that the other person didn't.

I remember seeing a person run to the left in one section and saying to my coop buddy "We should go after them!" To which he said "Who?" leading to a very odd conversation where I was explaining something that had happened that quite clearly hadn't. It really added something that I've not seen in other coop experiences.

.

 

Offtopic/ Also, people moaning about microtransations in Dead Space can jog on. You didn't need to spend a penny unless you really wanted to. It was just an alternative to grinding. /Offtopic

 

Finally, I do enjoy the popcorn story of UC games. It's just not my priority.

[Thursday Next]

-all of this-

 

Thanks Eleven, that's exactly what I meant.

 

Also, I agree, it won't happen. ND have a reputation for nailed together polished games. It would tarnish that rep. But I still want it.

 

Either way, I am buying this when it releases. I'm a big UC fan.

[SomTervo]

Yeah, this is day one for me.

 

I really love how Corrinne Yu has become somewhat a celebrity following her work on Uncharted 4. Really great to see a gaming legend/role model who is a woman. ("Legend" may be a bit premature...)

[Eleven]

That spoilery stuff TN posted sounds pretty cool! I was thinking the other day that someone should make a game where the second player would get to do things designed in a way to seem totally innocent, yet building a story for the 2nd player to actually be the big bad in the game. Then you end up fighting at the end, death match style.

[Thursday Next]

I'd be surprised if Sam didn't end up being the bad guy. Wrapped up in some ambiguous, Lando-esque "I had to do it" thing and then some sort of redemption in death / noble sacrifice job.

[toxicitizen]

I'm gonna call it now.

 

He's the main villain of UC4! Or at least will have a bad guy moment.

Well, he wasn't always voiced by Troy Baker. The guy that did the voice over in the initial reveal teaser has been confirmed to originally be the same character until he was recast. That voice over did sound a bit... ominous. So yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Seems like a safe guess.

 

I really love how Corrinne Yu has become somewhat a celebrity following her work on Uncharted 4. Really great to see a gaming legend/role model who is a woman. ("Legend" may be a bit premature...)

What are you referring to? I mean, I've heard about her for her work on Halo but haven't heard much about her work since she was hired by ND.

[Thursday Next]

[SomTervo]

I'm hoping it's more three-dimensional than "He's the bad guy." I'm hoping it's more subtle, like, "he's more selfish than Nate and is inclined to screw them over/temporarily side with the baddies." Like a less strong moral compas.

 

FLD: she's apparently working on the cutting edge, hard-nut mathematics which will allow the game to have super mental graphics. Y'know she was a nuclear physicist by trade originally? Yeah I've seen two articles about her, with comment sections full of praise and admiration. IIRC they were on Gamasutra and Kotaku or something. These were either earlier this year or late 2013. I think she joined the team in 2013.

 

That spoilery stuff TN posted sounds pretty cool! I was thinking the other day that someone should make a game where the second player would get to do things designed in a way to seem totally innocent, yet building a story for the 2nd player to actually be the big bad in the game. Then you end up fighting at the end, death match style.

This has been done already, again, by Splinter Cell Conviction! Though nobody is the bad guy necessarily.

 

 

In the co-op campaign, technically neither player is the 'bad guy'. But we play an American agent and a Russian agent, who are often at odds. In the end, once they have taken out all the baddies and escaped on a cargo plane, each agent is ordered to neutralise the other...

 

The final co-op mission is the two players on the plane, beginning at opposite ends after being ordered via earpiece to kill the other. One-life deathmatch. Your commander tells you to do it and the camera just zooms out, GTAV style, straight into gameplay. "Go kill your buddy".

 

Totally awesome. My pal and I didn't expect it at all and that last battle was just full of screaming and frantic bumbling about trying to trap/shoot the other player. The plane was very large and had two stories, with interconnected vertical stairwells/gaps, with a million hiding places. I won by hiding around a corner until my pal ran past, then shooting him in the back. So dramatic. So symbolic. It didn't really work gameplay-wise, but was a fantastic send-off.

 

At the end of the day... The government is always the bad guy.

 

*Shakes fist*.

 

 

Something similar would be incredible in Uncharted. But yeah, probably unlikely.

Edited December 10, 2014 by kenshi_ryden